Library cost/benefit

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Posts 3
Chris Bowman | Forum Activity | Posted: Wed, Jan 28 2015 7:56 AM

We are a teaching parish with area clergy using our library for resources and "get-away space" that is free of distraction. We also train student ministers and interns. While we have a computer they can use to link with the Internet, most bring their own laptops. (We are talking of three or four clergy each month).

As I contemplate upgrading from Logos 5 to 6 for myself, I am aware that for that amount of money I could purchase some very important reference books for our library (some included in Logos and some not).

So the dilemma: How do we justify purchasing these upgrades knowing that they cannot be shared as I do, for example, from my physical library?

Mostly just a question to ponder. But this seems to continue a "me first" sort of library-building instead of a "community shared" resource development. Does anyone else struggle with justifying this personal expense at the expense of community resourcing?

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 28 2015 8:19 AM

Chris Bowman:

So the dilemma: How do we justify purchasing these upgrades knowing that they cannot be shared as I do, for example, from my physical library?

Mostly just a question to ponder. But this seems to continue a "me first" sort of library-building instead of a "community shared" resource development. Does anyone else struggle with justifying this personal expense at the expense of community resourcing?

 It all depends on the source of funding. I have no problem spending my own funds for my own use. However, I would feel a little uncomfortable buying myself a Ferrari if my church is needing a van to shuttle the elderly to church services. 

If the clergy who benefit from the community resources are able, but not willing, to contribute to the acquisition of resources I would not be as concerned about it.

The one thing I would not do is to share my Logos library with others.

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GaoLu | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 28 2015 8:20 AM

Her are some ideas that might help you decide:

  1. Get academic discount.  
  2. I don't know why someone can't use your computer to do research, much like loaning a single book.
  3. You can export a fair amount of a book for use. 
Posts 947
Everett Headley | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 28 2015 8:22 AM

I do not have an issue justifying the expense because the books are purchased primarily for my own study.  I use my own funds or book budget for them.  There is certainly a drawback for the digital versions and not sharing them as a dead tree version.  However, there are benefits with the digital such as instant searches, and ultra-portability.  This is definitely a case of personal preference.  I stopped loaning books many years ago as so few came home.  There may be a a case where Logos does communal licences some day, and in your situation might work nicely.  

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 28 2015 8:23 AM

Gao Lu:
I don't know why someone can't use your computer to do research, much like loaning a single book.

Because it is illegal and unethical as it violates the EULA.   

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DMB | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 28 2015 9:32 AM

Chris ... since you're new, my official title is 'Naysayer'.  So just adjust the volume.

Let's assume your parish gave you a budget for a vehicle.  You promptly headed for the dealership and bought (actually rented; you only own the licenses) a nice well-appointed vehicle.  But the dealer (who actually owns the vehicle), limited the vehicle to just you (part of the manufacturer's contract).

Later, a fellow member needs to use the car ... the same one funded by not-you.   You demur ... since you bought the wrong car.

Seems to me either (a) buy paper or (b) buy sharable-digital.  There's no (c).

Now again, I'm the naysayer.  I'm not sure how any pastor buys non-sharable digital, who presumes to share the gospel.  Only 'verbal'?

"God will save his fallen angels and their broken wings He'll mend."

Posts 5317
Dan Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 28 2015 10:51 AM

Super.Tramp:

Gao Lu:
I don't know why someone can't use your computer to do research, much like loaning a single book.

Because it is illegal and unethical as it violates the EULA.   

This is true...however I think Logos might find itself with more customers if they could implement a loan option. Your select a book, push Loan and enter the other users email...select the loan duration (perhaps 1-4 option), and the book is disabled in your Library for that period. This would encourage Pastors and others to virtually evangelize for Faithlife (hey you have a smart phone, download this App and I can lend you this book). 

-Dan

Posts 50
Cale Judd | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 28 2015 11:01 AM

Dan, I think that's an excellent idea! I'm not sure what it would take, but I know Amazon does that with Kindle resources.

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 28 2015 11:08 AM

Dan Francis:
I think Logos might find itself with more customers if they could implement a loan option.

I do think they would get new customers that way. I also think an institutional license, allowing multiple users, would also generate sales. I just wonder if it is more of a licensing issue than a coding one.

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JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 28 2015 11:37 AM

Cale Judd:
I know Amazon does that with Kindle resources.

They do, but... (actually BUT... it's a big one):

  • Many resources are NOT "lendable."
  • Resources can be lent once and ONLY once.
  • The "lending" duration is for two weeks only.

Would I like to see these same rules applied to Logos? Yep. Is it the Nirvana many people make it out to be? Nope.

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Posts 5317
Dan Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 28 2015 11:38 AM

Super.Tramp:

Dan Francis:
I think Logos might find itself with more customers if they could implement a loan option.

I do think they would get new customers that way. I also think an institutional license, allowing multiple users, would also generate sales. I just wonder if it is more of a licensing issue than a coding one.

Well my Logic was is they were using it on their phone they may investigate it to actually purchase other books on their own,  and even maybe a starter base package. But I speak as a book lover who deeply love study of the Word.

-Dan

Posts 623
JAL | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 28 2015 11:40 AM

Dan Francis:
I think Logos might find itself with more customers if they could implement a loan option.

Something akin to the Kindle Book Lending feature. https://kdp.amazon.com/help?topicId=A2JGI9S4FDM39Q

EDIT: Returning to this thread I see several people already posted about Kindle Book Lending. Next time before clicking on reply I better refresh the page after taking a phone call.Embarrassed

"The Christian mind is the prerequisite of Christian thinking. And Christian thinking is the prerequisite of Christian action." - Harry Blamires, 1963

Posts 2322
GaoLu | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 28 2015 4:00 PM

Super.Tramp:

Gao Lu:
I don't know why someone can't use your computer to do research, much like loaning a single book.

Because it is illegal and unethical as it violates the EULA.   

You are right. I read the EULA.  

The short version is this: "The license goes with the user. Every user must purchase their own package. If you have a work machine and a laptop and they are both yours for your personal use, you may load it on both for your personal use - because the license goes with the user." Can you purchase one package and have two people use it? No. The license goes with the user. The license is a single user license.

All licenses are single human being licenses. We do not offer site-licenses, shared licenses, co-op licenses, library licenses or multi-user licenses. A church or company may be the purchaser and thus legal owner of the license grant, but may only allow one human being to be the beneficiary of this license grant.

Suggesting  that an open computer in an educational setting with Logos available to all was a really bad suggestion.  

Posts 591
Rayner | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 28 2015 4:06 PM

Dan Francis:
This is true...however I think Logos might find itself with more customers if they could implement a loan option. Your select a book, push Loan and enter the other users email...select the loan duration (perhaps 1-4 option), and the book is disabled in your Library for that period. This would encourage Pastors and others to virtually evangelize for Faithlife (hey you have a smart phone, download this App and I can lend you this book). 

That's a brilliant idea!  I would love to share my resources with others, but know that the EULA prohibits it.  But I hate the fact that I can afford resources and others cannot, and I cannot lend them in the way I lend other books.  I can hardly read all of my Logos library at the same time and so I think a "lend" option that would disable me from reading, but would let others read would be fantastic.

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Bruce Dunning | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 28 2015 4:49 PM

alabama24:

Cale Judd:
I know Amazon does that with Kindle resources.

They do, but... (actually BUT... it's a big one):

  • Many resources are NOT "lendable."
  • Resources can be lent once and ONLY once.
  • The "lending" duration is for two weeks only.

Would I like to see these same rules applied to Logos? Yep. Is it the Nirvana many people make it out to be? Nope.

Thanks for explaining this as I was not aware of how it worked in Kindle.

Using adventure and community to challenge young people to continually say "yes" to God

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JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 28 2015 5:09 PM

Sure thing 

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Posts 3
Chris Bowman | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 31 2015 4:33 AM

Thanks, all, for the conversation.

I do think it is a decision, ultimately, about the use of church resources. (Since I am a pastor, my ability to personally purchase these resources using my "professional expenses or professional growth account on non-sharable resources is still a decision about the faith community's resources). Also bothersome, I believe the ULA states that the program and its digital library are not only non-sharable but also non-transferrable so, when I leave ministry, I'll not be able to donate my vast library or digital resources to the next pastor. 

In full disclosure: I did relent and purchase the upgrade this week. Ironically, I was also able to loan a visiting pastor an old copy of a book from my personal collection that I had been given by another pastor upon his retirement (one I had a second copy of).

THe visiting pastor was very thankful because she is just beginning her ministry and does not have a substantial library of her own. Nor does she have ANY budget from her church for resources. Sure, the book was old and in the public domain (and can be found, searchable, on the Internet, but still....Smile 

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Graham Criddle | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 31 2015 4:45 AM

Chris Bowman:
Also bothersome, I believe the ULA states that the program and its digital library are not only non-sharable but also non-transferrable so, when I leave ministry, I'll not be able to donate my vast library or digital resources to the next pastor. 

Transfers are possible (at Faithlife's discretion) - there are some constraints - on payment of a transaction fee as per the following from the EULA

At Faithlife's sole discretion you may transfer all your rights to use the Software, Content, and Documentation to another person or legal entity provided you transfer this Agreement, the Software, Content, and Documentation, including all copies, updates and prior versions to such person or entity and that you retain no copies, including copies stored on computer. There will be a processing fee charged on all transfers which is subject to change without notice. As of 6/17/09 the fee is equal to $20.00 per transfer.

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Mike Binks | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 31 2015 4:58 AM

Chris Bowman:
I believe the ULA states that the program and its digital library are not only non-sharable but also non-transferrable so, when I leave ministry, I'll not be able to donate my vast library or digital resources to the next pastor. 

Not so - 

'At Faithlife's sole discretion you may transfer all your rights to use the Software, Content, and Documentation to another person or legal entity provided you transfer this Agreement, the Software, Content, and Documentation, including all copies, updates and prior versions to such person or entity and that you retain no copies, including copies stored on computer. There will be a processing fee charged on all transfers which is subject to change without notice. As of 6/17/09 the fee is equal to $20.00 per transfer.'

The 'sole discretion' clause is there to stop abuse of this procedure. You can trawl the forums for the owners undertaking that transfers will not be unreasonably withheld. I have my digital library mentioned in my will.

Not so (2)

Chris Bowman:
when I leave ministry,

There is no point in making any other arrangement for disposing of your library as despite using all Logos' search powers I am unable to find a (earthly) retirement plan for Christians that is mentioned in the Bible.

PS I really don't like Graham (Speedy) Criddle Wink

tootle pip

Mike

How to get logs and post them. (now tagging post-apocalyptic fiction as current affairs)

Posts 560
Glenn Crouch | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 31 2015 5:24 AM

Dan Francis:

This is true...however I think Logos might find itself with more customers if they could implement a loan option. Your select a book, push Loan and enter the other users email...select the loan duration (perhaps 1-4 option), and the book is disabled in your Library for that period. This would encourage Pastors and others to virtually evangelize for Faithlife (hey you have a smart phone, download this App and I can lend you this book). 

I think this would be a fabulous idea and I know many people I would lend books this way and none of them currently use Logos.

Pastor Glenn Crouch
St Paul's Lutheran Church
Kalgoorlie-Boulder, Western Australia

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