Bob, the new rules are forcing me to cancel my Pre-pubs

Agreed - similar boat. I canceled a few things already. I hate it. I feel like I'm breaking my word. But I suppose when I committed to making those purchases FL was operating differently as well.

I haven't canceled near that much in dollar value since the change. But I did cancel a 300$ or so commentary, and am going to have to heavily re-evaluate each item as it comes down the pipe. IF I am able to pay cash, I'll get it. If not, my payment plan is going to stay the same.

I was offered CE at a great deal today by one of the sales people I had before Rusty (whose now retired). But this change has me unsettled, and I since all the details aren't known - and more details like this 12 month thing - keep popping up I am reluctant to make a commitment beyond a certain price point.

I know Bob will do what is right by the customer, he always has and always will. But its still better to make a decision in advance being a possessor of all the facts, rather than making a committment for 27 months, and finding out next week that it was really only going to be for 12 and instead of 400 (to pick a round number), its more like 900$ monthly. 400 I could swing. 900 would make checks bounce.

Further having evaluated my pre-pub list I have 1700$ in outstanding orders, 1014$ of which would have gone on a payment plan as it would be out of reach in addition to my monthly payment. CP orders total around 1400, 350ish will be dropping off.

So to re-cap - I'm probably going to cancel 1365$ worth of orders from PP and CP, and a 2200$ order that I would have made for sure, I probably won't now for a total loss of 3565. In addition to that, I spend on average about 350$ above my monthly payment. Sometimes webstore purchases, but mostly adding things to my payment plan. 350 x 12 is what? 4200$ more that I would have ordered in the next twelve months alone. If I can't modify my payment plan at all, then its more like 350 x 27 Plus the lost items from PP and CP means a net loss of around 12,000$.

Like I've said before. I don't think its unfair. I don't think its an unwarranted change. However, that s probably the janitors paycheck at the flatiron building.

You do have an expensive hobby, my friend. 

[ip]

I canceled my TDOT too.... and if it is true that all payment plans must be shrunk down to 12 months if anything is added that means even if I have the 25% to put down, which I might have swung for TDOT I could not have handled more than doubling my payment by going to 12 payments. I am now very glad i didn't even attempt to try to do it now. I had decided there were enough small works coming up that I didn't wish to add the extra $100 to December.

-Dan

Fasil said:

The same here . I never knew you could put pre-pubs on payment plan. 

I had killed off several orders at once as they were coming up because I couldn't afford them... I was contacted by a sales associate to ask me if I would like to have them on a payment plan and I said yes... from then on I have added really big items onto my payment plan keeping the payments about the same price. I have not bought hundreds of items this way but I have got a few dozen items... including at least once  when I was emailed saying theses wish list items could be added on. 

-Dan

MJ. Smith said:

Ignorance is bliss! I didn't know that pre-pubs could be added to a payment plan. I thought they were always an immediate one time payment. I probably missed some things I could have swung, but I'm accidentally feeling no pain now.

Same here [:)]

I have been deleting Prepub items for months due to cost- and not wanting to keep payment plans going. When I finish paying off my current plan- no more, and looks like my purchases will be dropping to almost nothing given the price of resources.

Keep your dead tree library- I only got rid of books I did not need or want- and look for used books, one good resource, pastors who have passed away, their spouses are usually looking to liquidate their libraries if thy have not donated them to a local church.

I understand this difficulty, and have similar concerns.

But I must admit that I have often felt that the current system wasn't sustainable.

Imagine a scenario that someone had a 12 month payment plan for $500/month. They then bought an additional $500 resource, and added it to the payment plan and extended the payment plan for an extra month. (I did this sort of thing quite often.) In practical terms, I was effectively getting a "buy now, pay in 12 months" deal, which cost me just $5 (or 1%). If I'd have put in on my credit card, it would have cost me around $90 to defer payment for 12 months. I'm not at all surprised that scenario (which I'm sure lots of us where using), needed to change.

But I don't know whether it needs to change as drastically as it is going to do.

If I was going to suggest a change in the policy it would be that the 25% down payment wouldn't be required if we were only adding to our payment plan, and not extending it. I would also think it reasonable to add a $5 admin fee to add something to a payment plan. That would bring income forward in the way that Bob wants, and stop payment plans getting longer and longer, and raise a very small amount of additional income to cover the expense of recalculating the plan.

Joseph Turner said:

it seems to me that $1000 over 12-24 months is better than $0

There is another model in addition to Book Cache - Logos Cloud. For a small payment every month a user will receive many more books. As shocking as this model was to many of us 6 months or so ago, to exchange a payment plan that for some may practically extend into perpetuity, for a subscription plan that also may extend into perpetuity yet offer many more resources and features is not such a nonsensical idea. People are exploding because they may not be getting the value they used to get out of a $100 a month payment plan, users who are more than willing to add 5 months or more on the end of their plan with each new purchase, yet for $99 a month they get just about everything. And the difference between "owning" it and "not owning it" is a semantic one when in practicality the monthly payment won't end in either case (for some this is true, not for all all).

Logos Cloud is not on par feature-wise with desktop version yet I don't think, but it will get there, I assume. I wonder if the Cloud model comes to the desktop one day?

Don Awalt said:

People are exploding because they may not be getting the value they used to get out of a $100 a month payment plan, users who are more than willing to add 5 months or more on the end of their plan with each new purchase, yet for $99 a month they get just about everything.

It's nowhere near everything. Even the best Logos Cloud deal comes way short of what I have in my library, and what's missing is often the best of what I own.

Bradley Grainger (Faithlife) said:

Joseph Turner said:

I am terrible at accounting, but it seems to me that $1000 over 12-24 months is better than $0

See Bob's example of why it's worse (during the first 6-12 months) here: https://community.logos.com/forums/p/118786/779521.aspx#779521 

 I understand Bob's explanation and agree something must be done. But I do think this course of action will result in a huge hit to sales and the Pre-Pub program. How many big ticket items will be sold at retail? Not many.

Whyndell Grizzard said:

Keep your dead tree library

I've been saying that for years, including here on the forums, but not many seem to agree.

(This has little to do with Logos or FL, BTW.)

I'll say it again: those who dump their paper libraries will live to regret it, one way or another.

Bob Pritchett said:

If a big portion of our top-line sales are only happening because they're effectively being bought a year or two in advance, that's really just deceiving ourselves about what our market/customers can afford, so, as painful as it is, we may need to factor that into our plans.

That's just the point Bob. Maybe I am deceiving myself but I did get some high cost products that I couldn't afford at the time so added them to my payment plan to pay over time. There are other high cost items coming up and I would have added those to my payment plan. But now, even my payment plan is something I will not be able to afford with the new changes. I am grateful the payment plan was there to buy these products, but in the future I cannot buy high cost resources nor upgrade base packages.

Super.Tramp said:

Joseph Turner said:

Yeah, but I don't know that I agree with the argument.  If we were starting right now from scratch, then that might be a problem, but since there are so many people on payment plans, there should be enough money coming in every month to cover the upfront costs going to publishers for any knew addition by any given customer.  Once my upfront cost is covered, I am helping to cover costs for those who start a new payment plan, or add something new to a plan.  Payment plans should be generating a guaranteed monthly income for the company.

I follow your reasoning. But what if a bunch of people default on their payments?

Wouldnt any default on the payment result in the licence being removed? That is my understanding anyhow.

Dan

Dan Francis said:

Super.Tramp said:

Joseph Turner said:

Yeah, but I don't know that I agree with the argument.  If we were starting right now from scratch, then that might be a problem, but since there are so many people on payment plans, there should be enough money coming in every month to cover the upfront costs going to publishers for any knew addition by any given customer.  Once my upfront cost is covered, I am helping to cover costs for those who start a new payment plan, or add something new to a plan.  Payment plans should be generating a guaranteed monthly income for the company.

I follow your reasoning. But what if a bunch of people default on their payments?

Wouldnt any default on the payment result in the licence being removed? That is my understanding anyhow.

Dan

well sure, but the problem is FL has already paid the fees to the publisher...so even though the resource is unavailable to the user, there is a direct cost loss that I doubt FL can get back. Could be wrong, but from what I have read so far I would say no.

Mark Smith said:

The only thing I'd insert into this discussion is that it might have been good for Faithlife to have given more advance notice of the policy change (2-3 months would have been good considering the fallout). That said, Bob's explanation is quite clear and I understand the need for the change.

 Agreed. 

I had been holding off for the past 5 months from adding anything to my payment plan so I could roll it up on Black Friday. I guess I'll be spending elsewhere this year and cutting back; which isn't necessarily a bad thing.

If we'd be given some reasonable notice (and I still haven't received the email by the way), I would have adjusted my end of year finances accordingly to account for the 25% down.  However, if it is true that longer payment plans are being forced to convert to 12 months, I am done with larger purchases.  I have no interest in managing multiple payment plans either.

Alex Scott said:

abondservant said:

Rusty (whose?)

Probably Logos' if anyone's

Actually I think this was the quote

abondservant said:

I was offered CE at a great deal today by one of the sales people I had before Rusty (whose now retired). But this change has me unsettled, and I since all the details aren't known - and more details like this 12 month thing - keep popping up I am reluctant to make a commitment beyond a certain price point.

Not a huge fan of people changing quotes :P

In your case though its funny.