My main critique of Logos to this day...

Hi all! I LOVE LOGOS! Yes Big Smile I have been using it since it was, like, Libronix or something. Yes

But some help please. To this day, I still find it easier to hop onto Bing or Google for a quick question like "Aaron's son's names" than to use Logos. In this case, online the very first answer had them written right there in front of me... .02 seconds to find it or whatever.

Let's say I took the time in Logos, how would you have recommended I phrase the search, within Bible Search, I assume?

Thanks!

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Graham Criddle

Let's say I took the time in Logos, how would you have recommended I phrase the search, within Bible Search, I assume?

Very interesting question.

I guess the obvious is to search for "sons of Aaron" which does return the results you are looking for - but there are some caveats:

They aren't the first results shown - the first time this search names them is in 1 Chronicles
And it does depend on this exact phrase being present in the Bible you are using - and it might not be. (You can minimise that issue by searching for something like "sons Aaron" but that returns a much wider set of results that would be difficult to work through).

I tihnk that the experimental advanced search capability that Logos is working on - currently available on the beta web app - is probably the most likely to address these types of search queries:

xnman

Hi all! I LOVE LOGOS! I have been using it since it was, like, Libronix or something.

But some help please. To this day, I still find it easier to hop onto Bing or Google for a quick question like "Aaron's son's names" than to use Logos. In this case, online the very first answer had them written right there in front of me... .02 seconds to find it or whatever.

Let's say I took the time in Logos, how would you have recommended I phrase the search, within Bible Search, I assume?

Thanks!

This is a great question, one of which I have had problems with ever since I came to Logos. So one makes a search, and as Graham points out, then one has to "hunt" for the answer through all the "stuff" that Search brings up. What good is Search if I still have to "hunt for the answer"? I have tried to say this and didn't know how. Thanks Carmen for pointing it out.

scooter

This is a great question, one of which I have had problems with ever since I came to Logos. So one makes a search, and as Graham points out, then one has to "hunt" for the answer through all the "stuff" that Search brings up. What good is Search if I still have to "hunt for the answer"?

Searching the search

Is like searching the sea

This simple answer

SB first out

For all to see

Immediately

Not is Davy Jones' locker

Interred in obscurity

Milkman

Couldn't agree with you more! [Y][Y]

mm.

Hi all! I LOVE LOGOS! I have been using it since it was, like, Libronix or something.

But some help please. To this day, I still find it easier to hop onto Bing or Google for a quick question like "Aaron's son's names" than to use Logos. In this case, online the very first answer had them written right there in front of me... .02 seconds to find it or whatever.

Let's say I took the time in Logos, how would you have recommended I phrase the search, within Bible Search, I assume?

Thanks!

Sam Shelton

Carmen, I agree with you. I have never been a great fan of the search function within Logos.

And yet, I am finding the experimental search on the beta web app to be increasingly helpful. I searched for “Aaron's son's names” (without the quotes) in the experimental search, and found the same answers that Graham found. I also tried the same search in Bing chat. While it took a little longer than a search in the Logos beta search, Bing did come up with the correct answer.

My concern with the Bing chat search is that I have no real way of confirming the veracity of the answers without clicking on the sources listed. To me, there is no great difference between this and a traditional search, except with the traditional search, I get to choose which source I click on.

The Logos beta search gives me several choices that I can choose from separately, without trying to blend them together. It may be a minor thing, but I prefer a choice of answers that I can choose from and study, instead of a blending together of the answers for me. I find it difficult to trust an answer when I cannot trust the source of the answer, and I find it impossible to trust an answer when I do not know the source of the answer.

1Cor10 31

Hi all! I LOVE LOGOS! I have been using it since it was, like, Libronix or something.

But some help please. To this day, I still find it easier to hop onto Bing or Google for a quick question like "Aaron's son's names" than to use Logos. In this case, online the very first answer had them written right there in front of me... .02 seconds to find it or whatever.

Let's say I took the time in Logos, how would you have recommended I phrase the search, within Bible Search, I assume?

Thanks!

This is a great question, one of which I have had problems with ever since I came to Logos. So one makes a search, and as Graham points out, then one has to "hunt" for the answer through all the "stuff" that Search brings up. What good is Search if I still have to "hunt for the answer"? I have tried to say this and didn't know how. Thanks Carmen for pointing it out.

Google who has built a trillion dollar business on providing relevant search. So many firms have tried to one up Google and failed. Google's search engine is the secret sauce responsible for their trillion dollar valuation. I think it is unfair to expect someone like Faithlife to dethrone Google. Use Google for what it does best and use Logos for what it does best.

ReformedDoc

I tried it in Logos but I started with the fact book & typed in sons of Aaron, it listed Numbers 3:1-2

3 These are the generations of Aaron and Moses at the time when the LORD spoke with Moses on Mount Sinai. 2 These are the names of the sons of Aaron: Nadab the firstborn, and Abihu, Eleazar, and Ithamar

The Holy Bible: English Standard Version (Wheaton, IL: Crossway Bibles, 2016), Nu 3:1–2.

xnman

Hi all! I LOVE LOGOS! I have been using it since it was, like, Libronix or something.

But some help please. To this day, I still find it easier to hop onto Bing or Google for a quick question like "Aaron's son's names" than to use Logos. In this case, online the very first answer had them written right there in front of me... .02 seconds to find it or whatever.

Let's say I took the time in Logos, how would you have recommended I phrase the search, within Bible Search, I assume?

Thanks!

This is a great question, one of which I have had problems with ever since I came to Logos. So one makes a search, and as Graham points out, then one has to "hunt" for the answer through all the "stuff" that Search brings up. What good is Search if I still have to "hunt for the answer"? I have tried to say this and didn't know how. Thanks Carmen for pointing it out.

Google who has built a trillion dollar business on providing relevant search. So many firms have tried to one up Google and failed. Google's search engine is the secret sauce responsible for their trillion dollar valuation. I think it is unfair to expect someone like Faithlife to dethrone Google. Use Google for what it does best and use Logos for what it does best.

Welll.... not to re-hash an old argument.... but....using what you say.... then if Logos Search produces a million possible suggestions (example only) to a question one asks.... what do you do? Spend the next year going through all the suggestions Search came up with?

If that be the case.... why waste time and money and resources on Logos Search? Just tell people to use another search and be done with it.

Nope.... I just don't buy that. [8-|]

Fabian

May you test https://community.logos.com/forums/t/216686.aspx?PageIndex=1. You can give even feedback to the results.

1Cor10 31

why waste time and money and resources on Logos Search? Just tell people to use another search and be done with it.

We use a hammer to hammer a nail in. We use a screwdriver to screw something in. In both cases, we are sending a metallic object into the wall, but we use different tools depending on the job.

Similarly, Google search is not the same as Logos search just because the word "search" is in both the phrases. You'll save time by directing your search to the appropriate tool.

MJ. Smith

quick question like "Aaron's son's names"

I'd ask a simpler question. Given that the Logos search engine is designed for research not for lookups, why would you search for Aaron's son's names? You'd look it up in the Factbook under Aaron.

Or if, for some reason, you really, really wanted to use the search just to prove it could be done, you would do a media search on the genealogical charts for Aaron.

To expect the server-farm experience on a desktop application is unrealistic. However, try asking Google a question that the Logos search engine is designed to answer: Give me all the NABRE Bible references in which all 12 disciples of Jesus are present.

or try ChatGPT which is at least designed to be better suited to the task ... which bypasses everywhere they are mentioned as a group - which is exactly what I am looking for.

[quote]

Certainly. The New American Bible Revised Edition (NABRE) provides references in the New Testament where the twelve disciples (often referred to as apostles) of Jesus are mentioned. Here are the references:

Matthew 10:1-4 - This passage introduces the twelve apostles and lists their names.
Mark 3:13-19 - Here, Mark lists the twelve whom Jesus appointed.
Luke 6:12-16 - Luke gives an account of the selection of the twelve apostles.
Acts 1:13-26 - After the Ascension of Jesus, the eleven apostles gather, and Matthias is chosen to replace Judas Iscariot, thus restoring the number to twelve.

While these references directly list or mention the twelve, there are numerous instances throughout the Gospels where "the twelve" are referenced as a group without listing each name. Keep in mind that this doesn't cover every single instance where they might be implied to be present, but these references are the explicit mentions.

Hmm, any chance Logos/Verbum can give me an answer?

So, I shake my head every time this question of why the Logos search is a electronic microscope rather than a magnifying glass or a telescope is asked. It is designed to answer the type of questions the other tools can't answer. It is not designed to replace or compete with Google. It is not designed to answer the basic "factual" questions that are properly look-ups not searches.

And, yes, I am aware that the question I asked is not precisely answered by Logos. Rather I must use my human intelligence to screen the results to verify that the "all" is actually met or whether a mere mention of the disciples is assumed to mean all 12 were present.

Note: sons of Abraham is more predictable than sons of Aaron so I can readily search although it requires much more sifting through the data. Remember that one must be able to define what one is looking for:

xnman

I understand. It's just that my grandfather was comfortable sleeping on the floor and did most of the time. Me... well, I just thought there was a better way. I know there are people that love Logos Search the way it is... well... me.... I think there is a better way. And I don't feel bad for thinking there is a better way....

But we've been down this road before.... I lost then... and will probably loose now. But one day..... aah yes, one day.... [8-|]

MJ. Smith

It's just that my grandfather was comfortable sleeping on the floor and did most of the time. Me... well, I just thought there was a better way

Ah, I understand!! In hot Okanogan summers, I thought there was a better way than a bed in an upstairs bedroom. I'd sleep on the cold slate floor of the entry way and stay quite comfortable while others sweltered.

Note: my brother chose the lawn - but he had to move inside for the thunderstorms while I could sleep through them.

Mason Miller

Hi all! I LOVE LOGOS! Yes Big Smile I have been using it since it was, like, Libronix or something. Yes

Let's say I took the time in Logos, how would you have recommended I phrase the search, within Bible Search, I assume?

Thanks!

This is exactly what I run into all the time!

MJ. Smith

Let's say I took the time in Logos, how would you have recommended I phrase the search, within Bible Search, I assume?

Let me phrase my answer differently. Using the text of "War and Peace" write a search phrase to identify the sons of Count Kirill Vladimirovich Bezukhov. That is what you are asking me to do. Given the number of different ways the relationship might be expressed, directly or indirectly, it would take a very long string of possible phrasings to find them. I would essentially have to read the entire book to verify I had covered the phrasing used by a particular translator. Substitute "Bible" for "War and Peace" and "Aaron" for "Count Kirill Vladimirovich Bezukhov". Does that clarify why the search is the wrong tool? You'd have much better luck if you at least searched all resources for "sons of Aaron" OR "Aaron's sons" as even Google answers from secondary sources not the Bible.

scooter

Okanogan

As in Canada??

Rosie Perera

Let's say I took the time in Logos, how would you have recommended I phrase the search, within Bible Search, I assume?

Let me phrase my answer differently. Using the text of "War and Peace" write a search phrase to identify the sons of Count Kirill Vladimirovich Bezukhov. That is what you are asking me to do. Given the number of different ways the relationship might be expressed, directly or indirectly, it would take a very long string of possible phrasings to find them. I would essentially have to read the entire book to verify I had covered the phrasing used by a particular translator. Substitute "Bible" for "War and Peace" and "Aaron" for "Count Kirill Vladimirovich Bezukhov". Does that clarify why the search is the wrong tool? You'd have much better luck if you at least searched all resources for "sons of Aaron" OR "Aaron's sons" as even Google answers from secondary sources not the Bible.

Yes, but with Logos we've got not just the Bible to search, but an entire Library. And someone somewhere must have listed the songs of Aaron all in one sentence. That's what one is hoping to find by doing a search for the sons of Aaron. Similarly, some commentator on War and Peace might have listed the sons of Count Kirill Vladimirovich Bezukhov, and I'd expect an AI search to be able to find and identify them from a paragraph of text (understanding that "Kirill's son" and "son of Kirill" and other locutions are all synonyms). So I would expect that eventually (if not already) the beta Logos experimental search will be able to do something exactly like what Carmen wants.

I haven't read all of War and Peace, so I don't know whether this answer is correct, but here's how ChatGPT tackles the question:

Here's how it answers about the sons of Aaron:

MJ. Smith

we've got not just the Bible to search,

. . . how would you have recommended I phrase the search, within Bible Search, I assume?

True, but the OP specifically requested a Bible search. Part of my point was that if all resources were searched you would get results -- just as Google does not draw it's answer from scripture but from secondary materials.

As for War and Peace, the character relationships described in Wikipedia says

[quote]

Count Pyotr Kirillovich ("Pierre") Bezukhov: The central character and often a voice for Tolstoy's own beliefs or struggles. Pierre is the socially awkward illegitimate son of Count Kirill Vladimirovich Bezukhov, who has fathered dozens of illegitimate sons. Educated abroad, Pierre returns to Russia as a misfit. His unexpected inheritance of a large fortune makes him socially desirable.

I chose the example because most AI chat bots would confuse major characters or characters in War and Peace for all the sons. And, no, I have no idea how many of the dozens are named in the novel.

John

I still find it easier to hop onto Bing or Google ...

What I found interesting here (and in the entire thread) is that Logos is being compared to search engine and AI, rather than other Bible Software.

Carmen Gauvin-O'Donnell

Hey all, thanks for your answers and tips! I see though that this is a discussion which is by no means over, whihc is fine.

I LOVE LOGOS!! [:D]

DAL

My main critique is that they have not improved the sermon editor. I couldn’t care less about searches. I can find what I want with or without Logos. Having a full fledged editor with the ability to insert images that zoom in and out like Accordance has is more important to me for screen presentations. Logos would be up on the screen at churches and that’s free advertising for them, but no, they don’t seem to get it or care enough to implement what customers need. They would be making more money but they have gotten complacent with what they have.

DAL

David McClister

I don' think this is a deficiency with Logos, but instead a matter of asking Logos to do something it was not designed to do. Logos is, at its heart and soul, a software program that searches books (the Bible and books you have purchased through Logos). What you are asking is for synthesis, not searching. In other words, it seems that you are asking Logos to collect information and then put it into the form you're asking for, but that is not what Logos does. Logos is designed to study texts, not topics.

MJ. Smith

I don' think this is a deficiency with Logos, but instead a matter of asking Logos to do something it was not designed to do.

xnman

I don' think this is a deficiency with Logos, but instead a matter of asking Logos to do something it was not designed to do.

Reminds me of a song by Zager and Evans called "In the year 2525" .... "In the year 2525, if man is still alive, if woman can survive, they may find..." [8-|] lol.