Bob, is there any point to invest in Logos?

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Doc B | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 26 2015 1:01 PM

David Taylor Jr:
To become a 2nd class citizen you would have to be refused something available to everyone else, or treated differently than everyone else. Neither is the case.

Allow me to cut through the postmodernism, if you will.

FL: "Buy our software, and we'll continue to upgrade and support it, as well as provide new resources to you. The software is free; you'll only pay for the new resources."

ME: "Okay." [buys software]

FL: "By the way, you'll have to pay a subscription fee now, if you want those upgrades and support that you used to get for the cost of your software and resource purchases."

ME: "No, I'll stick to our original agreement."

SEAN and DAVID: "Your second-class status is self-imposed."

My thanks to the various MVPs. Without them Logos would have died early. They were the only real help available.

Faithlife Corp. owes the MVPs free resources for life.

Posts 3117
David Taylor Jr | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 26 2015 1:05 PM

Doc B:

FL: "By the way, you'll have to pay a subscription fee now, if you want those upgrades and support that you used to get for the cost of your software and resource purchases."

Big problem with your little aside there.  This statement I have quoted is false. These are EXTRAS. In other words, new resources. FL is still keeping their agreement with you. Not sure what that is so hard to understand.

Teacher, Ministry Leader, Student, Author, Husband

How to upload logs

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Posts 824
GregW | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 26 2015 1:08 PM

Doc B:
FL: "By the way, you'll have to pay a subscription fee now, if you want those upgrades and support that you used to get for the cost of your software and resource purchases."

Sorry, but you are continuing to get support and updates: while you have been grumpily posting here and quoting my attempt to help you on another thread as evidence of second-class citizenry, a new Service Pack that fixes a number of bugs has been released. This one doesn't just fix problems, but removes the need for a restart when hiding/unhiding, and the previous one removed the need for restarts when downloading new resources. In the last couple of weeks new versions of about a dozen resources have been pushed out. That looks like FL keeping to its side of the bargain to me. 


Running Logos 6 Platinum and Logos Now on Surface Pro 4, 8 GB RAM, 256GB SSD, i5

Posts 32
Sean Emslie | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 26 2015 1:14 PM

David, is correct there is no change in updating the software, you should have received Logos 6.3 last week.  There is no change to upgrades and support.

What is being offered in Logos Now are new features that may end up in Logos 7 if the user base likes them.  It is like how Gold and above receives all the new datasets of Logos 6.  If you decide to only upgrade to Silver or below you do not get all the new datasets but that is a choice to limit your datasets like your choice to not get the extra features previewed in Logos Now.

MA in Christian Studies - Emphasis in Pastoral Ministry, Grand Canyon University

Logos 6, Logos Now

Posts 2903
Doc B | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 26 2015 1:25 PM

David Taylor Jr:
These are EXTRAS.

If you would care to give a meaningful definition of the difference, from a user-end standpoint, between 'upgrades' and 'extras', I will at least consider your argument credible. Any equivocation kills it.

My thanks to the various MVPs. Without them Logos would have died early. They were the only real help available.

Faithlife Corp. owes the MVPs free resources for life.

Posts 2903
Doc B | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 26 2015 1:26 PM

Sean Emslie:
There is no change to upgrades and support.

The only real question, Sean, is how long it will be before you have to admit you were wrong about this.

My thanks to the various MVPs. Without them Logos would have died early. They were the only real help available.

Faithlife Corp. owes the MVPs free resources for life.

Posts 2903
Doc B | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 26 2015 1:28 PM

GregW:
my attempt to help you on another thread as evidence of second-class citizenry

So can you help me or not? (Outside the pay-to-play system, I mean.)

My thanks to the various MVPs. Without them Logos would have died early. They were the only real help available.

Faithlife Corp. owes the MVPs free resources for life.

Posts 3117
David Taylor Jr | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 26 2015 1:31 PM

Doc B:

David Taylor Jr:
These are EXTRAS.

If you would care to give a meaningful definition of the difference, from a user-end standpoint, between 'upgrades' and 'extras', I will at least consider your argument credible. Any equivocation kills it.

 

Sure. Base packages are upgrades that get you specific datasets.  Logos now is an extra (though it could be called an additional upgrade) that gives you datasets etc. that you can't get with a base package.

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Posts 3117
David Taylor Jr | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 26 2015 1:33 PM

Doc B:

Sean Emslie:
There is no change to upgrades and support.

The only real question, Sean, is how long it will be before you have to admit you were wrong about this.

He wasn't wrong about this.  You still upgrade via base packages. You can get an extra if you wish, and support is still free.

Teacher, Ministry Leader, Student, Author, Husband

How to upload logs

Visit My Site: Reformed Truths

Posts 2903
Doc B | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 26 2015 1:36 PM

David Taylor Jr:
an extra (though it could be called an additional upgrade)

You killed it. Not in the good way.

My thanks to the various MVPs. Without them Logos would have died early. They were the only real help available.

Faithlife Corp. owes the MVPs free resources for life.

Posts 32
Sean Emslie | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 26 2015 1:40 PM

I trust Faithlife and Bob on this one.

They state in their FAQ that the products receive free updates.
https://www.logos.com/faq

David made a good point that Logos Now could be seen like a paid upgrade.

I am currently using the free Logos 6 Engine with my last paid version being Logos 5 Portfolio, so any extra features that I can add to my Logos 6 software is great and $9 a month  is a lot less than the cost of upgrading to a Logos 6 base package at this time.

MA in Christian Studies - Emphasis in Pastoral Ministry, Grand Canyon University

Logos 6, Logos Now

Posts 3117
David Taylor Jr | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 26 2015 1:42 PM

Doc B:

David Taylor Jr:
an extra (though it could be called an additional upgrade)

You killed it. Not in the good way.

Hmm

Now you may be confusing upgrade with update.  Updates, are free. 6.3 is the latest.

Teacher, Ministry Leader, Student, Author, Husband

How to upload logs

Visit My Site: Reformed Truths

Posts 32
Sean Emslie | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 26 2015 1:45 PM

From the Logos FAQ:

What’s the difference between free software updates in Logos 6 and Logos Now?

Logos 6 users will continue to receive free updates to their software: bug fixes, performance enhancements, improvements to existing features, and updates to their resources, datasets, media collection, and interactive media. Logos Now members, in addition to these things, will receive early access to new content and features, as well as a variety of new categories of datasets, media collections, and interactive media. Logos Now members will also receive ​access to the brand new Logos web app and will enjoy other membership benefits like exclusive offers, special discounts, and more.

MA in Christian Studies - Emphasis in Pastoral Ministry, Grand Canyon University

Logos 6, Logos Now

Posts 2903
Doc B | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 26 2015 1:46 PM

Sean Emslie:
like a paid upgrade

Suddenly I'm starting to make more sense.

Don't misunderestimate what I'm saying Sean: I don't think you are getting a bad deal now. I think I am getting a lesser deal than I was made to understand was the commitment from the beginning. Thus,

Sean Emslie:
I trust Faithlife and Bob on this one.

is where I've become a bit of an apostate. I've lost my faith.

My thanks to the various MVPs. Without them Logos would have died early. They were the only real help available.

Faithlife Corp. owes the MVPs free resources for life.

Posts 3117
David Taylor Jr | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 26 2015 1:48 PM

Doc B:

Sean Emslie:
like a paid upgrade

Suddenly I'm starting to make more sense.

Don't misunderestimate what I'm saying Sean: I don't think you are getting a bad deal now. I think I am getting a lesser deal than I was made to understand was the commitment from the beginning. Thus,

Sean Emslie:
I trust Faithlife and Bob on this one.

is where I've become a bit of an apostate. I've lost my faith.

No Theological conversations now DOC.  HA! Sorry, couldn't resist.  Stick out tongue

Teacher, Ministry Leader, Student, Author, Husband

How to upload logs

Visit My Site: Reformed Truths

Posts 32
Sean Emslie | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 26 2015 1:54 PM

As David has mentioned it appears that you are not getting the difference between updates that will continue to be free like Logos 6.3 that was released last week and the updates that I just received to one of my tools.  

Upgrades are paid.  For example if I went from Logos 6 Free Engine to Logos 6 Gold.  It could be said that Logos 6 is an early upgrade to Logos 7.  I am willing to pay $9 a month to get a preview of Logos 7.  You are free to wait until 2016 or 2017 for Logos 7.  Anyway Logos 6 will continue to be updated with bug fixes and enhancements for new operating systems like Windows 10 and Mac OS 10.12.  You have the Logos 6 that you bought and which Bob will keep updating for free.

MA in Christian Studies - Emphasis in Pastoral Ministry, Grand Canyon University

Logos 6, Logos Now

Posts 8967
RIP
Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 26 2015 2:11 PM

Doc B:
FL: "By the way, you'll have to pay a subscription fee now, if you want those upgrades and support that you used to get for the cost of your software and resource purchases."

Datasets, datasets, datasets.

Logos 7 Collectors Edition

Posts 1454
Wild Eagle | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 26 2015 2:13 PM

Sean Emslie:

As David has mentioned it appears that you are not getting the difference between updates that will continue to be free like Logos 6.3 that was released last week and the updates that I just received to one of my tools.  

Upgrades are paid.  For example if I went from Logos 6 Free Engine to Logos 6 Gold.  It could be said that Logos 6 is an early upgrade to Logos 7.  I am willing to pay $9 a month to get a preview of Logos 7.  You are free to wait until 2016 or 2017 for Logos 7.  Anyway Logos 6 will continue to be updated with bug fixes and enhancements for new operating systems like Windows 10 and Mac OS 10.12.  You have the Logos 6 that you bought and which Bob will keep updating for free.

If Logos Now would just be an early upgrade to Logos 7, I wouldn't mind it. But in reality it's far more than that. Some features will never get to L7. More and more "Extra stuff" will go to subscribers, and only with subscription users will have access to cloud app. It's already here, if you want best from Logos, you have to pay monthly now. Base Packages are not enough for Bob anymore even-though I put more $$$ over-there 

"No man is greater than his prayer life. The pastor who is not praying is playing; the people who are not praying are straying." Leonard Ravenhill 

Posts 673
Frank Sauer | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 26 2015 2:41 PM

For those frustrated with Faithlife for charging a subscription to be "in" on the latest and greatest, while you may not like it - well it is becoming more common in many realms of the software industry.

For those backing the subscription model, please understand, this is a shift in the previous software implementation by Faithlife. The reason many would set their update channels to beta, was indeed to get the cutting edge datasets and features before release. Faithlife has now decided to shift into some features being in normal beta-testing and some being limited only to those who subscribe.... So that is why some will be frustrated with it.

For the record, I'm on neither side... Faithlife is looking to increase revenue and is rewarding those who are willing to pay. Businesses exist to make money, by selling goods consumers are willing to buy. Personally, I'm not into paying to beta-test new features for a company. I'll beta consistently for free, since it is the tester taking the risk, but to pay and take the risk... Not on my list of good investments, even with the added promise of exclusive discounts.

Posts 32
Sean Emslie | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 26 2015 2:42 PM

Logos Now is a new way to access new features in Logos 6.  If you are not interested in paying for them that is ok, but don't complain that you are not getting the extra features.

Logos Now has no effect on the current or future usability of Logos 6.  Logos 6 will continue to receive updates to the software and resources for free.

To me the "best of Logos" would include about $25,000 in new datasets and resources including Logos 6 Collector's Edition, Master Bundle XL, Baker Biblical Library, Fathers of the Church, Lexham Scholars Bundle and Lexham Pastors Bundle but this would be over $1000 per month on a payment plan.  It would be great to have an extra $1000 per month to get the "best of Logos" but I can't at this time so I add to my free Logos 6 Engine the extras of Logos Now.

Though the robust web app will only be available on Logos Now, there appears to be no plans to end Biblia.com or the Apple and Android mobile apps.

I am not a fan of monthly payments so I am considering the $89.99 yearly subscription.

MA in Christian Studies - Emphasis in Pastoral Ministry, Grand Canyon University

Logos 6, Logos Now

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