Bob, is there any point to invest in Logos?

I am at crossroad, deciding if its worth to invest in Logos. I am pretty new to Logos, since release of Logos 4. For the past 5 years, I invested about $11k, which is average $185 per month, and about $1k per year. Looking at release of Logos Now, I realize that Regular Logos becomes a second class software. I like the idea to use a software from anywhere and pay less per month, $8.99 instead of $200. My concern is, should I continue to invest in Logos paying that much if I get second class software (not with the latest features) or should I cancel all my prepabs and just wait until you release base packages with different subscription.

You constantly compare Logos Now with Netflix, Amazon Prime and etc. Looking at Netflix, I see no point to buy DVD/BlueRay anymore. Is it same with Logos? Any point to invest in Logos with so much money, or should I wait for subscription? I am really afraid to invest $50k or more in the future and realize 10 years from now that somebody can get the same stuff for $50 per month with better database and with more options.

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David Taylor, Jr.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/729905#Comment_729905

an extra (though it could be called an additional upgrade)

You killed it. Not in the good way.

[^o)]

Now you may be confusing upgrade with update. Updates, are free. 6.3 is the latest.

Sean Emslie

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/729908#Comment_729908

From the Logos FAQ:

What’s the difference between free software updates in Logos 6 and Logos Now?

Logos 6 users will continue to receive free updates to their software: bug fixes, performance enhancements, improvements to existing features, and updates to their resources, datasets, media collection, and interactive media. Logos Now members, in addition to these things, will receive early access to new content and features, as well as a variety of new categories of datasets, media collections, and interactive media. Logos Now members will also receive access to the brand new Logos web app and will enjoy other membership benefits like exclusive offers, special discounts, and more.

Doc B

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/729906#Comment_729906

like a paid upgrade

Suddenly I'm starting to make more sense.

Don't misunderestimate what I'm saying Sean: I don't think you are getting a bad deal now. I think I am getting a lesser deal than I was made to understand was the commitment from the beginning. Thus,

I trust Faithlife and Bob on this one.

is where I've become a bit of an apostate. I've lost my faith.

David Taylor, Jr.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/729910#Comment_729910

like a paid upgrade

Suddenly I'm starting to make more sense.

Don't misunderestimate what I'm saying Sean: I don't think you are getting a bad deal now. I think I am getting a lesser deal than I was made to understand was the commitment from the beginning. Thus,

I trust Faithlife and Bob on this one.

is where I've become a bit of an apostate. I've lost my faith.

No Theological conversations now DOC. HA! Sorry, couldn't resist. [:P]

Sean Emslie

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/729910#Comment_729910

As David has mentioned it appears that you are not getting the difference between updates that will continue to be free like Logos 6.3 that was released last week and the updates that I just received to one of my tools.

Upgrades are paid. For example if I went from Logos 6 Free Engine to Logos 6 Gold. It could be said that Logos 6 is an early upgrade to Logos 7. I am willing to pay $9 a month to get a preview of Logos 7. You are free to wait until 2016 or 2017 for Logos 7. Anyway Logos 6 will continue to be updated with bug fixes and enhancements for new operating systems like Windows 10 and Mac OS 10.12. You have the Logos 6 that you bought and which Bob will keep updating for free.

Matthew C Jones

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/729880#Comment_729880

FL: "By the way, you'll have to pay a subscription fee now, if you want those upgrades and support that you used to get for the cost of your software and resource purchases."

Datasets, datasets, datasets.

Wild Eagle

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/729914#Comment_729914

As David has mentioned it appears that you are not getting the difference between updates that will continue to be free like Logos 6.3 that was released last week and the updates that I just received to one of my tools.

Upgrades are paid. For example if I went from Logos 6 Free Engine to Logos 6 Gold. It could be said that Logos 6 is an early upgrade to Logos 7. I am willing to pay $9 a month to get a preview of Logos 7. You are free to wait until 2016 or 2017 for Logos 7. Anyway Logos 6 will continue to be updated with bug fixes and enhancements for new operating systems like Windows 10 and Mac OS 10.12. You have the Logos 6 that you bought and which Bob will keep updating for free.

If Logos Now would just be an early upgrade to Logos 7, I wouldn't mind it. But in reality it's far more than that. Some features will never get to L7. More and more "Extra stuff" will go to subscribers, and only with subscription users will have access to cloud app. It's already here, if you want best from Logos, you have to pay monthly now. Base Packages are not enough for Bob anymore even-though I put more $$$ over-there

Frank Sauer

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/729931#Comment_729931

For those frustrated with Faithlife for charging a subscription to be "in" on the latest and greatest, while you may not like it - well it is becoming more common in many realms of the software industry.

For those backing the subscription model, please understand, this is a shift in the previous software implementation by Faithlife. The reason many would set their update channels to beta, was indeed to get the cutting edge datasets and features before release. Faithlife has now decided to shift into some features being in normal beta-testing and some being limited only to those who subscribe.... So that is why some will be frustrated with it.

For the record, I'm on neither side... Faithlife is looking to increase revenue and is rewarding those who are willing to pay. Businesses exist to make money, by selling goods consumers are willing to buy. Personally, I'm not into paying to beta-test new features for a company. I'll beta consistently for free, since it is the tester taking the risk, but to pay and take the risk... Not on my list of good investments, even with the added promise of exclusive discounts.

Sean Emslie

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/729931#Comment_729931

Logos Now is a new way to access new features in Logos 6. If you are not interested in paying for them that is ok, but don't complain that you are not getting the extra features.

Logos Now has no effect on the current or future usability of Logos 6. Logos 6 will continue to receive updates to the software and resources for free.

To me the "best of Logos" would include about $25,000 in new datasets and resources including Logos 6 Collector's Edition, Master Bundle XL, Baker Biblical Library, Fathers of the Church, Lexham Scholars Bundle and Lexham Pastors Bundle but this would be over $1000 per month on a payment plan. It would be great to have an extra $1000 per month to get the "best of Logos" but I can't at this time so I add to my free Logos 6 Engine the extras of Logos Now.

Though the robust web app will only be available on Logos Now, there appears to be no plans to end Biblia.com or the Apple and Android mobile apps.

I am not a fan of monthly payments so I am considering the $89.99 yearly subscription.

Doc B

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/729928#Comment_729928

Datasets, datasets, datasets.

So is a dataset a "resource", or part of the "software"?

Frank Sauer

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/729946#Comment_729946

Logos Now is a new way to access new features in Logos 6. If you are not interested in paying for them that is ok, but don't complain that you are not getting the extra features.

Is this directed at me?

Sean Emslie

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/729958#Comment_729958

It was not directed at any individual.

I was just saying generally if you do not want the extras available in Logos Now then that is your choice, but it is not helpful to complain about not receiving resources that you choose not to purchase.

Matthew C Jones

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/729949#Comment_729949

Datasets, datasets, datasets.

So is a dataset a "resource", or part of the "software"?

It is a resource. It is a collection of data, similar to a sermon archive. The software will run without the datasets.

Frank Sauer

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/729960#Comment_729960

It was not directed at any individual.

I was just saying generally if you do not want the extras available in Logos Now then that is your choice, but it is not helpful to complain about not receiving resources that you choose not to purchase.

It's neither helpful to complain about it, nor is it helpful to combat those who do complain about it. There are some legitimate complaints. Faithlife has made a number of promises and failed to honor them. That is likely the reason for the concerns/complaints in regard to where Logos Now can be headed...

Just in the need for the subscription to access the web app, there are features being added there that were promised in future releases of Biblia.com years ago and have never been implemented. My personal "dead horse" of a failure to honor a promise was the Sermon File Addin, sure there is a weak shell of it added to the PBB, but nowhere near the functionality of the V3 addin, though it was promised to be fixed in V4 beta testing days.

So yes, I agree, don't complain about what you're not paying for, but also understand that there are reasons consumers have to question the path Faithlife is headed. For which they shouldn't have to deal with the combative nature some have toward anyone who questions Faithlife.

Sean Emslie

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/729968#Comment_729968

My concern is that people seem to be ignoring that Logos Now has no effect on their current Logos Software it still works the same as it did before and will continue to work the same for the future as Logos will be offering free updates to the software and resources. For those that wait the next couple years for Logos 7 you should see the most popular features in your paid upgrade.

Logos 7 is kind of like the Mac and iOS Developer programs that cost $99 each per year that allows people that want the most up-to-date versions of Apple operating systems and software to get them before the general public. It does not effect the Macs or iPhones/iPads of those who don't participate and wait for the released versions of the software.

Frank Sauer

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/729975#Comment_729975

My concern is that people seem to be ignoring that Logos Now has no effect on their current Logos Software it still works the same as it did before and will continue to work the same for the future as Logos will be offering free updates to the software and resources. For those that wait the next couple years for Logos 7 you should see the most popular features in your paid upgrade.

Logos 7 is kind of like the Mac and iOS Developer programs that cost $99 each per year that allows people that want the most up-to-date versions of Apple operating systems and software to get them before the general public. It does not effect the Macs or iPhones/iPads of those who don't participate and wait for the released versions of the software.

Don't totally disagree, but again you look past the fact that there are items that are being added to the subscription that were promised long ago to free platforms like biblia.com - thus the reason some are going to complain. Sure there are always going to be those who complain no matter what, but there are indeed reasons for the concern on where things are going in some people's eyes - you can't knock their concerns just because you don't see it the way they may. It leads to these long drawn debates.

Matthew C Jones

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/729980#Comment_729980

there are items that are being added to the subscription that were promised long ago to free platforms like biblia.com -

Complaining because the features are given to paying customers first? Do you see how bad that sounnds?

Sean Emslie

Sadly when it comes down to it, this whole thread is inspired on speculation that Logos will completely change their business model that has over 2 million users and go to a 100% subscription model.

Logos Now is a subscription to add services to the desktop software, you can't just subscribe to Logos Now and not have at least the Logos 6 Engine. For those concerned that the Desktop program for Mac and Windows is going away it is not, that would be foolish to mess with 2 million established customers.

Many people are confusing Logos Now and Logos Cloud, this is mostly the fault of Faithlife bringing them out at the same time.

Logos Now is an add-in service to enhance Logos 6.

Logos Cloud is a new product completely from Logos 6 and is a software-as-a-service, cloud-based way to access Logos Software and a library of rental books. With Logos 6 Desktop you own all the books in your library, with Logos Cloud you rent your library. Logos Cloud will also be mostly Lexham and Public Domain Books being that only 4 publishers are offering book to Logos Cloud, including Baker and Wipf & Stock. Logos 6 Desktop has books from hundreds of publishers.

It would be good for us all to take a wait and see attitude. For the initial concerns you own all your books and Logos Desktop will continue to receive free updates for the life of the program per Logos FAQ.

Logos is an invaluable tool for Bible study, academic writing and sermon prep and it will continue to be in the future. I am confident Logos will continue to make the program better and more useful and Logos Now and Logos Cloud will allow for more new service to be created for all users and also bring in hopefully millions of more customers content to rent their software and books making for many more years of Faithlife.

Wild Eagle

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/729990#Comment_729990

there are items that are being added to the subscription that were promised long ago to free platforms like biblia.com -

Complaining because the features are given to paying customers first? Do you see how bad that sounnds?

First of all I am paying costumer, but not with subscription though, and most likely more than many subscribers

Secondly, some features like cloud app will never make to L7, and unless someone pays monthly, he wont have access otherwise

Next, future development will go toward cloud app see:

The Internet and mobile apps create an expectation of ongoing support. We used to make a product, sell it to you, and be done. Sure, there might be some bug fixes, but often they were delivered on-demand for specific users, or even held until a future (paid) upgrade. (1990's software model.) Now people expect frequent updates, immediate bug fixes, and that the mobile apps are updated constantly to support the latest screen size, OS feature, handsets, etc. Moreover, people expect syncing of their data to the cloud (when you get a new phone you don't plan to copy off and then restore your personal data -- you expect to sign in and have it there), web-based access to some/all capabilities, etc. Writing new code takes time and money; keeping servers up 24x7 for thousands of users is surprisingly non-trivial.

Next, some "extra stuff" added to subscribers only

My concern: unless someone pays monthly, he wont enjoy "coolest" features at all, but will have less functionalities.

Previous models:

Base Package (Gold and Up) - enjoy all features
Free - basic features

Future model:

Subscription + Base Package - enjoy all features
Subcription - enjoy latest features + additional features belonging only to subscribers (like web app)
Base Package (Gold and Up) - enjoy all features (not anymore), enjoy some features
Free - basic features

Bottom line, before with the base package I could enjoy all features, but now only some. I got downgraded [:'(] unless I add subscription

Frank Sauer

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/729990#Comment_729990

there are items that are being added to the subscription that were promised long ago to free platforms like biblia.com -

Complaining because the features are given to paying customers first? Do you see how bad that sounnds?

Complaining about paying users getting it first? How about the fact it was promised years ago to be added to the free platform? Take your fanboy badge off and recognize that Faithlife is not Jesus and that you do not need to take snippets of a post out of context. Faithlife has broken promises and has some leery - it is that simple. If you can't take the full context of my statements, please do not twist them for your points.

I've made it clear I have no problem with Faithlife charging, but do understand with their failures to fulfill promises, that there is a concern from some users - so no, my comment in context does not sound bad.

Matthew C Jones

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/730007#Comment_730007

there are items that are being added to the subscription that were promised long ago to free platforms like biblia.com -

Complaining because the features are given to paying customers first? Do you see how bad that sounnds?

Complaining about paying users getting it first? How about the fact it was promised years ago to be added to the free platform? Take your fanboy badge off and recognize that Faithlife is not Jesus and that you do not need to take snippets of a post out of context. Faithlife has broken promises and has some leery - it is that simple. If you can't take the full context of my statements, please do not twist them for your points.

I've made it clear I have no problem with Faithlife charging, but do understand with their failures to fulfill promises, that there is a concern from some users - so no, my comment in context does not sound bad.

Did Faithlife give you a time/date for their promise fulfilment? If not, how can you say they broke their promise? They may yet deliver. Don't be so sour.

JT (alabama24)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/729945#Comment_729945

For those backing the subscription model, please understand, this is a shift in the previous software implementation by Faithlife. The reason many would set their update channels to beta, was indeed to get the cutting edge datasets and features before release.

For clarification: I am unaware of new datasets being released through previous beta channel builds before "Logos Now." Did that happen? Normally new datasets only come with the purchase of a new base package in major builds (L4/L5/L6).

Paul Strickert

I thought the OP was addressed to Bob. That's comment one. Comment two is that perhaps Faithlife has grown too big. Sometimes I wonder if they're stuck having to invent new ways to 'feed the beast.'

Frank Sauer

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/730016#Comment_730016

there are items that are being added to the subscription that were promised long ago to free platforms like biblia.com -

Complaining because the features are given to paying customers first? Do you see how bad that sounnds?

Complaining about paying users getting it first? How about the fact it was promised years ago to be added to the free platform? Take your fanboy badge off and recognize that Faithlife is not Jesus and that you do not need to take snippets of a post out of context. Faithlife has broken promises and has some leery - it is that simple. If you can't take the full context of my statements, please do not twist them for your points.

I've made it clear I have no problem with Faithlife charging, but do understand with their failures to fulfill promises, that there is a concern from some users - so no, my comment in context does not sound bad.

Did Faithlife give you a time/date for their promise fulfilment? If not, how can you say they broke their promise? They may yet deliver. Don't be so sour.

So you continue to misrepresent my statements... I am in no way sour with Faithlife for their decision to release Logos Now - I clearly stated that there are reasons that some are leery. As for "they may yet deliver", possibly... However it would be counterproductive for them to have Biblia.com have the same tools as the Web App. That would lose a big draw to the subscription base, as the exclusivity of the web app to subscribers only would not be as valuable.

So please keep your personal attacks to yourself.

Frank Sauer

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/730018#Comment_730018

For those backing the subscription model, please understand, this is a shift in the previous software implementation by Faithlife. The reason many would set their update channels to beta, was indeed to get the cutting edge datasets and features before release.

For clarification: I am unaware of new datasets being released through previous beta channel builds before "Logos Now." Did that happen? Normally new datasets only come with the purchase of a new base package in major builds (L4/L5/L6).

True that data sets come with the new build beta testing, I could have clarified that, but I've been testing betas on major and minor releases for so long they blur together [8-|]

Dave Hooton

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/729966#Comment_729966

Datasets, datasets, datasets.

So is a dataset a "resource", or part of the "software"?

It is a resource. It is a collection of data, similar to a sermon archive. The software will run without the datasets.

Doc,

Faithlife on logos.com count datasets, features and books as resources but the Logos application only counts books as resources. So if you have the ESV Reverse Interlinear (NT & OT) only the "visible" ESV bible is counted by the app whereas logos.com counts it as three resources.

Logos Now is about additional datasets (e.g. Old Testament Propositional Bible Outlines), features (e.g. Concordance, more Guides sections), more server-based media (e.g.Visual Copy slides) and some more Interactive books. It also provides month-long access to new and special resources (books).

FL: "By the way, you'll have to pay a subscription fee now, if you want those upgrades and support that you used to get for the cost of your software and resource purchases."

Support is available and free but the level depends on the software version e.g. Logos 4 is not supported, Logos 5 gives you the personal support you would expect and Logos 6 gives you full support. Basically, Logos Now provides the "upgrades" you would normally get in a few years with Logos 7 ---> note that features like Inline Search eventually came free with the L6 Core Engine.

Dave Hooton

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/730018#Comment_730018

For those backing the subscription model, please understand, this is a shift in the previous software implementation by Faithlife. The reason many would set their update channels to beta, was indeed to get the cutting edge datasets and features before release.

For clarification: I am unaware of new datasets being released through previous beta channel builds before "Logos Now." Did that happen? Normally new datasets only come with the purchase of a new base package in major builds (L4/L5/L6).

Logos Now features are tested along with the (free) Logos 6 improvements in beta testing, but new datasets are only available to subscribers. Updated datasets are available at any time to those who have purchased them with a crossgrade or base package.

There weren't any new datasets with releases like 4.5, 4.6, 5.1, 5.2. There may have some "cutting edge" features, though.

Doc B

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/730079#Comment_730079

Doc,

Faithlife on logos.com count datasets, features and books as resources but the Logos application only counts books as resources. So if you have the ESV Reverse Interlinear (NT & OT) only the "visible" ESV bible is counted by the app whereas logos.com counts it as three resources.

Thanks for the explanation, Dave. That helps process the issue.

David Taylor, Jr.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/730225#Comment_730225

Doc,

Faithlife on logos.com count datasets, features and books as resources but the Logos application only counts books as resources. So if you have the ESV Reverse Interlinear (NT & OT) only the "visible" ESV bible is counted by the app whereas logos.com counts it as three resources.

Thanks for the explanation, Dave. That helps process the issue.

[y]