Bob, is there any point to invest in Logos?

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Doc B | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 26 2015 2:46 PM

Super.Tramp:
Datasets, datasets, datasets.

So is a dataset a "resource", or part of the "software"?

My thanks to the various MVPs. Without them Logos would have died early. They were the only real help available.

Faithlife Corp. owes the MVPs free resources for life.

Posts 673
Frank Sauer | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 26 2015 3:04 PM

Sean Emslie:

Logos Now is a new way to access new features in Logos 6.  If you are not interested in paying for them that is ok, but don't complain that you are not getting the extra features.

Is this directed at me?

Posts 32
Sean Emslie | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 26 2015 3:13 PM

It was not directed at any individual.

I was just saying generally if you do not want the extras available in Logos Now then that is your choice, but it is not helpful to complain about not receiving resources that you choose not to purchase.

MA in Christian Studies - Emphasis in Pastoral Ministry, Grand Canyon University

Logos 6, Logos Now

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 26 2015 3:28 PM

Doc B:

Super.Tramp:
Datasets, datasets, datasets.

So is a dataset a "resource", or part of the "software"?

It is a resource. It is a collection of data, similar to a sermon archive. The software will run without the datasets.

Logos 7 Collectors Edition

Posts 673
Frank Sauer | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 26 2015 3:31 PM

Sean Emslie:

It was not directed at any individual.

I was just saying generally if you do not want the extras available in Logos Now then that is your choice, but it is not helpful to complain about not receiving resources that you choose not to purchase.

It's neither helpful to complain about it, nor is it helpful to combat those who do complain about it. There are some legitimate complaints. Faithlife has made a number of promises and failed to honor them. That is likely the reason for the concerns/complaints in regard to where Logos Now can be headed...

Just in the need for the subscription to access the web app, there are features being added there that were promised in future releases of Biblia.com years ago and have never been implemented. My personal "dead horse" of a failure to honor a promise was the Sermon File Addin, sure there is a weak shell of it added to the PBB, but nowhere near the functionality of the V3 addin, though it was promised to be fixed in V4 beta testing days.

So yes, I agree, don't complain about what you're not paying for, but also understand that there are reasons consumers have to question the path Faithlife is headed. For which they shouldn't have to deal with the combative nature some have toward anyone who questions Faithlife.

Posts 32
Sean Emslie | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 26 2015 3:45 PM

My concern is that people seem to be ignoring that Logos Now has no effect on their current Logos Software it still works the same as it did before and will continue to work the same for the future as Logos will be offering free updates to the software and resources.  For those that wait the next couple years for Logos 7 you should see the most  popular features in your paid upgrade.

Logos 7 is kind of like the Mac and iOS Developer programs that cost $99 each per year that allows people that want the most up-to-date versions of Apple operating systems and software to get them before the general public.  It does not effect the Macs or iPhones/iPads of those who don't participate and wait for the released versions of the software.

MA in Christian Studies - Emphasis in Pastoral Ministry, Grand Canyon University

Logos 6, Logos Now

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Frank Sauer | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 26 2015 4:00 PM

Sean Emslie:

My concern is that people seem to be ignoring that Logos Now has no effect on their current Logos Software it still works the same as it did before and will continue to work the same for the future as Logos will be offering free updates to the software and resources.  For those that wait the next couple years for Logos 7 you should see the most  popular features in your paid upgrade.

Logos 7 is kind of like the Mac and iOS Developer programs that cost $99 each per year that allows people that want the most up-to-date versions of Apple operating systems and software to get them before the general public.  It does not effect the Macs or iPhones/iPads of those who don't participate and wait for the released versions of the software.

Don't totally disagree, but again you look past the fact that there are items that are being added to the subscription that were promised long ago to free platforms like biblia.com - thus the reason some are going to complain. Sure there are always going to be those who complain no matter what, but there are indeed reasons for the concern on where things are going in some people's eyes - you can't knock their concerns just because you don't see it the way they may. It leads to these long drawn debates.

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 26 2015 4:52 PM

Frank Sauer:
there are items that are being added to the subscription that were promised long ago to free platforms like biblia.com -

Complaining because the features are given to paying customers first? Do you see how bad that sounnds?

Logos 7 Collectors Edition

Posts 32
Sean Emslie | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 26 2015 5:15 PM

Sadly when it comes down to it, this whole thread is inspired on speculation that Logos will completely change their business model that has over 2 million users and go to a 100% subscription model.

Logos Now is a subscription to add services to the desktop software, you can't just subscribe to Logos Now and not have at least the Logos 6 Engine.  For those concerned that the Desktop program for Mac and Windows is going away it is not, that would be foolish to mess with 2 million established customers.

Many people are confusing Logos Now and Logos Cloud, this is mostly the fault of Faithlife bringing them out at the same time.

Logos Now is an add-in service to enhance Logos 6.

Logos Cloud is a new product completely from Logos 6 and is a software-as-a-service, cloud-based way to access Logos Software and a library of rental books.  With Logos 6 Desktop you own all the books in your library, with Logos Cloud you rent your library.  Logos Cloud will also be mostly Lexham and Public Domain Books being that only 4 publishers are offering book to Logos Cloud, including Baker and Wipf & Stock.  Logos 6 Desktop has books from hundreds of publishers.

It would be good for us all to take a wait and see attitude.  For the initial concerns you own all your books and Logos Desktop will continue to receive free updates for the life of the program per Logos FAQ.  

Logos is an invaluable tool for Bible study, academic writing and sermon prep and it will continue to be in the future.  I am confident Logos will continue to make the program better and more useful and Logos Now and Logos Cloud will allow for more new service to be created for all users and also bring in hopefully millions of more customers content to rent their software and books making for many more years of Faithlife.

MA in Christian Studies - Emphasis in Pastoral Ministry, Grand Canyon University

Logos 6, Logos Now

Posts 1454
Wild Eagle | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 26 2015 5:31 PM

Super.Tramp:

Frank Sauer:
there are items that are being added to the subscription that were promised long ago to free platforms like biblia.com -

Complaining because the features are given to paying customers first? Do you see how bad that sounnds?

First of all I am paying costumer, but not with subscription though, and most likely more than many subscribers

Secondly, some features like cloud app will never make to L7, and unless someone pays monthly, he wont have access otherwise

Next, future development will go toward cloud app see:

Bob Pritchett:

The Internet and mobile apps create an expectation of ongoing support. We used to make a product, sell it to you, and be done. Sure, there might be some bug fixes, but often they were delivered on-demand for specific users, or even held until a future (paid) upgrade. (1990's software model.) Now people expect frequent updates, immediate bug fixes, and that the mobile apps are updated constantly to support the latest screen size, OS feature, handsets, etc. Moreover, people expect syncing of their data to the cloud (when you get a new phone you don't plan to copy off and then restore your personal data -- you expect to sign in and have it there), web-based access to some/all capabilities, etc. Writing new code takes time and money; keeping servers up 24x7 for thousands of users is surprisingly non-trivial.

Next, some "extra stuff" added to subscribers only

My concern: unless someone pays monthly, he wont enjoy "coolest" features at all, but will have less functionalities. 

Previous models:

  1. Base Package (Gold  and Up) - enjoy all features
  2. Free - basic features

Future model:

  1. Subscription + Base Package -  enjoy all features 
  2. Subcriptionenjoy latest features + additional features belonging only to subscribers (like web app)
  3. Base Package  (Gold  and Up) - enjoy all features (not anymore), enjoy some features
  4. Free - basic features

Bottom line, before with the base package I could enjoy all features, but now only some. I got downgraded Crying unless I add subscription 

"No man is greater than his prayer life. The pastor who is not praying is playing; the people who are not praying are straying." Leonard Ravenhill 

Posts 673
Frank Sauer | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 26 2015 5:43 PM

Super.Tramp:

Frank Sauer:
there are items that are being added to the subscription that were promised long ago to free platforms like biblia.com -

Complaining because the features are given to paying customers first? Do you see how bad that sounnds?

Complaining about paying users getting it first? How about the fact it was promised years ago to be added to the free platform? Take your fanboy badge off and recognize that Faithlife is not Jesus and that you do not need to take snippets of a post out of context. Faithlife has broken promises and has some leery - it is that simple. If you can't take the full context of my statements, please do not twist them for your points.

I've made it clear I have no problem with Faithlife charging, but do understand with their failures to fulfill promises, that there is a concern from some users - so no, my comment in context does not sound bad. 

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 26 2015 6:38 PM

Frank Sauer:

Super.Tramp:

Frank Sauer:
there are items that are being added to the subscription that were promised long ago to free platforms like biblia.com -

Complaining because the features are given to paying customers first? Do you see how bad that sounnds?

Complaining about paying users getting it first? How about the fact it was promised years ago to be added to the free platform? Take your fanboy badge off and recognize that Faithlife is not Jesus and that you do not need to take snippets of a post out of context. Faithlife has broken promises and has some leery - it is that simple. If you can't take the full context of my statements, please do not twist them for your points.

I've made it clear I have no problem with Faithlife charging, but do understand with their failures to fulfill promises, that there is a concern from some users - so no, my comment in context does not sound bad.

Did Faithlife give you a time/date for their promise fulfilment? If not, how can you say they broke their promise? They may yet deliver. Don't be so sour.

Logos 7 Collectors Edition

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JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 26 2015 6:42 PM

Frank Sauer:
For those backing the subscription model, please understand, this is a shift in the previous software implementation by Faithlife. The reason many would set their update channels to beta, was indeed to get the cutting edge datasets and features before release.

For clarification: I am unaware of new datasets being released through previous beta channel builds before "Logos Now." Did that happen? Normally new datasets only come with the purchase of a new base package in major builds (L4/L5/L6).

OSX & iOS | Logs |  Install

Posts 334
Paul Strickert | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 26 2015 6:56 PM

I thought the OP was addressed to Bob.  That's comment one.  Comment two is that perhaps Faithlife has grown too big.  Sometimes I wonder if they're stuck having to invent new ways to 'feed the beast.'

Posts 673
Frank Sauer | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 26 2015 7:01 PM

Super.Tramp:

Frank Sauer:

Super.Tramp:

Frank Sauer:
there are items that are being added to the subscription that were promised long ago to free platforms like biblia.com -

Complaining because the features are given to paying customers first? Do you see how bad that sounnds?

Complaining about paying users getting it first? How about the fact it was promised years ago to be added to the free platform? Take your fanboy badge off and recognize that Faithlife is not Jesus and that you do not need to take snippets of a post out of context. Faithlife has broken promises and has some leery - it is that simple. If you can't take the full context of my statements, please do not twist them for your points.

I've made it clear I have no problem with Faithlife charging, but do understand with their failures to fulfill promises, that there is a concern from some users - so no, my comment in context does not sound bad.

Did Faithlife give you a time/date for their promise fulfilment? If not, how can you say they broke their promise? They may yet deliver. Don't be so sour.

So you continue to misrepresent my statements... I am in no way sour with Faithlife for their decision to release Logos Now - I clearly stated that there are reasons that some are leery. As for "they may yet deliver", possibly... However it would be counterproductive for them to have Biblia.com have the same tools as the Web App. That would lose a big draw to the subscription base, as the exclusivity of the web app to subscribers only would not be as valuable.

So please keep your personal attacks to yourself. 

Posts 673
Frank Sauer | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 26 2015 7:04 PM

alabama24:

Frank Sauer:
For those backing the subscription model, please understand, this is a shift in the previous software implementation by Faithlife. The reason many would set their update channels to beta, was indeed to get the cutting edge datasets and features before release.

For clarification: I am unaware of new datasets being released through previous beta channel builds before "Logos Now." Did that happen? Normally new datasets only come with the purchase of a new base package in major builds (L4/L5/L6).

True that data sets come with the new build beta testing, I could have clarified that, but I've been testing betas on major and minor releases for so long they blur together Geeked

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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 27 2015 12:01 AM

Super.Tramp:

Doc B:

Super.Tramp:
Datasets, datasets, datasets.

So is a dataset a "resource", or part of the "software"?

It is a resource. It is a collection of data, similar to a sermon archive. The software will run without the datasets.

Doc,

Faithlife on logos.com count datasets, features and books as resources but the Logos application only counts books as resources. So if you have the ESV Reverse Interlinear (NT & OT) only the "visible" ESV bible is counted by the app whereas logos.com counts it as three resources. Logos Now is about additional datasets (e.g. Old Testament Propositional Bible Outlines), features (e.g. Concordance, more Guides sections), more server-based media (e.g.Visual Copy slides) and some more Interactive books. It also provides month-long access to new and special resources (books).
Doc B:
FL: "By the way, you'll have to pay a subscription fee now, if you want those upgrades and support that you used to get for the cost of your software and resource purchases."
Support is available and free but the level depends on the software version e.g. Logos 4 is not supported, Logos 5 gives you the personal support you would expect and Logos 6 gives you full support. Basically, Logos Now provides the "upgrades" you would normally get in a few years with Logos 7 ---> note that features like Inline Search eventually came free with the L6 Core Engine.

Dave
===

Windows 10 & Android 8

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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 27 2015 1:10 AM

alabama24:

Frank Sauer:
For those backing the subscription model, please understand, this is a shift in the previous software implementation by Faithlife. The reason many would set their update channels to beta, was indeed to get the cutting edge datasets and features before release.

For clarification: I am unaware of new datasets being released through previous beta channel builds before "Logos Now." Did that happen? Normally new datasets only come with the purchase of a new base package in major builds (L4/L5/L6).

Logos Now features are tested along with the (free) Logos 6 improvements in beta testing, but new datasets are only available to subscribers. Updated datasets are available at any time to those who have purchased them with a crossgrade or base package.

There weren't any new datasets with releases like 4.5, 4.6, 5.1, 5.2. There may have some "cutting edge" features, though.

Dave
===

Windows 10 & Android 8

Posts 2903
Doc B | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 27 2015 9:00 AM

Dave Hooton:

Doc,

Faithlife on logos.com count datasets, features and books as resources but the Logos application only counts books as resources. So if you have the ESV Reverse Interlinear (NT & OT) only the "visible" ESV bible is counted by the app whereas logos.com counts it as three resources.

Thanks for the explanation, Dave. That helps process the issue.

My thanks to the various MVPs. Without them Logos would have died early. They were the only real help available.

Faithlife Corp. owes the MVPs free resources for life.

Posts 3117
David Taylor Jr | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 27 2015 9:24 AM

Doc B:

Dave Hooton:

Doc,

Faithlife on logos.com count datasets, features and books as resources but the Logos application only counts books as resources. So if you have the ESV Reverse Interlinear (NT & OT) only the "visible" ESV bible is counted by the app whereas logos.com counts it as three resources.

Thanks for the explanation, Dave. That helps process the issue.

Yes

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