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Posts 1751
Nathan Parker | Forum Activity | Posted: Mon, Jul 27 2015 11:22 PM

When the next major version of the Logos Core Engine (say 7.0 for example) becomes available, while the core engine will be free for everyone like all previous versions, will Now/Cloud users gain "early access" to the engine similar to how base package purchasears who purchased a Logos base package shorlty after launch time got access to the latest core engine before the general public?

Nathan Parker

Visit my blog at http://focusingonthemarkministries.com

Posts 1806
LogosEmployee
Phil Gons (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 28 2015 9:28 AM

Logos Now and Cloud subscribers will always get the earliest access to new features in the desktop software. There's a three-staged rollout:

  • Now/Cloud subscribers
  • Base package / Crossgrade owners
  • Free engine downloaders

We don't maintain different versions of the Logos 6 desktop engine. Everyone gets the same code base with each new release. The difference is one of licenses. Certain features get turned on by the presence of resources.

When we release the next major version of the desktop engine, Now and Cloud subscribers will get access first, followed by new base package or crossgrade owners. Several months later, we'll remove the restrictions that hide pure code features and make them available in the new free engine update.

Posts 1557
John Kight | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 28 2015 9:40 AM

Phil Gons (Faithlife):

Logos Now and Cloud subscribers will always get the earliest access to new features in the desktop software. There's a three-staged rollout:

  • Now/Cloud subscribers
  • Base package / Crossgrade owners
  • Free engine downloaders

We don't maintain different versions of the Logos 6 desktop engine. Everyone gets the same code base with each new release. The difference is one of licenses. Certain features get turned on by the presence of resources.

When we release the next major version of the desktop engine, Now and Cloud subscribers will get access first, followed by new base package or crossgrade owners. Several months later, we'll remove the restrictions that hide pure code features and make them available in the new free engine update.

As always, thank you for the explanation Phil.

For book reviews and more visit sojotheo.com 

Posts 1751
Nathan Parker | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 28 2015 1:00 PM

Phil Gons (Faithlife):

Logos Now and Cloud subscribers will always get the earliest access to new features in the desktop software. There's a three-staged rollout:

  • Now/Cloud subscribers
  • Base package / Crossgrade owners
  • Free engine downloaders

We don't maintain different versions of the Logos 6 desktop engine. Everyone gets the same code base with each new release. The difference is one of licenses. Certain features get turned on by the presence of resources.

When we release the next major version of the desktop engine, Now and Cloud subscribers will get access first, followed by new base package or crossgrade owners. Several months later, we'll remove the restrictions that hide pure code features and make them available in the new free engine update.

Perfect! That's exactly what I was hoping for. Thanks for the info!

Nathan Parker

Visit my blog at http://focusingonthemarkministries.com

Posts 439
Mark Stevens | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 29 2015 7:16 AM

As someone who has been a long-term customer of Logos I have to say this move by the company is incredibly disappointing. A good company would reward longterm users and not those who pay ongoing fees. Even Microsoft has woken up to the fact that free engines for all on an equal playing field is the way to go. 

What happens in the future? Eventually I foresee a day when although I own my books should I wish to purchase more I'll have to pay a subscription? Are you able to guarantee users that they will always be able to buy books? Or will you, as I suspect will happen, eventually only have subscription service? 

Bob Pritchett, this will not mean much to you and will barely make a splash on any bottom line but you've lost me as a customer. If I could sell my Logos Bible Software I would. If you'd buy it back, I'd sell it in a heartbeat. I once loved this software and now it is simply what i am stuck with. It feels that as a customer all you are really interested in is money because you guys seem to find a million ways to extract it from us. 

I know loyal Logos users will jump to the company's defence. Good on you, we each have to make our own decisions. I have made mine!

Sincerely, Mark Stevens

Posts 13312
Forum MVP
Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 29 2015 7:54 AM

Mark Stevens:
As someone who has been a long-term customer of Logos I have to say this move by the company is incredibly disappointing. A good company would reward longterm users

In a sense the principles haven't changed.

Base package upgraders/crossgraders have had access to new features before people who don't pay to upgrade — but they get the features that don't require datasets in the end. Logos Now is working on exactly the same principle.

Mark Stevens:
What happens in the future? Eventually I foresee a day when although I own my books should I wish to purchase more I'll have to pay a subscription? Are you able to guarantee users that they will always be able to buy books? Or will you, as I suspect will happen, eventually only have subscription service? 

I would encourage you not to judge Logos on what you think might happen, particularly when there's little or no evidence for your fears. That can never be fair, and it's impossible to defend yourself again.

You're enjoying Logos 6, you've had a number of incremental upgrades (for free) since it was released, and in the future you'll get even more. You can choose to wait for the new tools and get them for free, or you can choose to have them now. That's really up to you, but it's likely you don't need them now, anyway (at least that's what my wife says to me!).

Posts 6479
Forum MVP
Lynden Williams | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 29 2015 9:27 AM

Mark Stevens:
What happens in the future? Eventually I foresee a day when although I own my books should I wish to purchase more I'll have to pay a subscription? Are you able to guarantee users that they will always be able to buy books? Or will you, as I suspect will happen, eventually only have subscription service? 

Mark the only person who can truly answer this is God. I am not being trivial. What if Logos had committed to always supplying resources on cd's. Some computers ship without them, the wave is either download or Usb and Sd Cards. Publishers may demand that if Logos wants to sell their material, then use the subscription model. 99% of Logos users may prefer the subscription model. Is the cost of writing the code for the website and related costs worth the few persons who actually buy resources?

This is why Logos cannot/should not commit to anything in a rapidly changing world.

Everything ever written in Religion and Theology formatted for Logos Bible Software.Logos Youtube Channel

Posts 1751
Nathan Parker | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 29 2015 12:52 PM

Mark Stevens:

As someone who has been a long-term customer of Logos I have to say this move by the company is incredibly disappointing. A good company would reward longterm users and not those who pay ongoing fees. Even Microsoft has woken up to the fact that free engines for all on an equal playing field is the way to go. 

What happens in the future? Eventually I foresee a day when although I own my books should I wish to purchase more I'll have to pay a subscription? Are you able to guarantee users that they will always be able to buy books? Or will you, as I suspect will happen, eventually only have subscription service? 

Bob Pritchett, this will not mean much to you and will barely make a splash on any bottom line but you've lost me as a customer. If I could sell my Logos Bible Software I would. If you'd buy it back, I'd sell it in a heartbeat. I once loved this software and now it is simply what i am stuck with. It feels that as a customer all you are really interested in is money because you guys seem to find a million ways to extract it from us. 

I know loyal Logos users will jump to the company's defence. Good on you, we each have to make our own decisions. I have made mine!

Sincerely, Mark Stevens

Hi Mark,

I'm hoping what I'm about to say will bring you more comfort and clarity. As of now, the Logos Core Engine is free, and it's always been free. Every Logos user gets a free "upgrade" to the latest version of the Core Engine, whether they own a handful of resources in the platform or have invested thousands of dollars in thousands of books (like I have).

Additionally, any book updates you currently own are also free, where Logos goes in, fixes typos, adds new links to resources, etc. That's something never done in print books. I've seen plenty of books I own in my library get updated with new links and fixes over the years, even years after purchasing the books.

The only policy Logos has when it comes to Core Engine upgrades is while everyone gets access to the Core Engine for free, users that purchase a Logos Base Collection or Crossgrade get "priority" access to the latest Core Engine when it launches. This has made sense since people that pay around $500 to upgrade to a new Logos Base Package or pay for a Logos Crossgrade will be flooding Faithlife/Logos servers enough with download requests, and by offering access to the Core Engine free to everyone on day one would only saturate Faithlife/Logos servers more, and those that pay the hefty price for a Base Collection or Crossgrade may have to "wait in line" while those paying absolutely nothing to upgrade would get to download the Core Engine before them. That wouldn't be fair to those who shelled out the funds to make upgrade investment and would cause more of a PR nightmare.

So Faithlife/Logos allows those that have plunked down the hard core investment in the latest program priority access to the Core Engine, then once the dust settles a little and Faithlife/Logos servers aren't getting stampeded, they open up access to the Core Engine for everyone to update to whether or not you spend another dime with Faithlife/Logos on any new books/datasets.

My question was, would the above policy now extend to Logos Now/Cloud customers? Since I'm going to be both a Now and Cloud Plus subscriber, I'm going to be paying close to $30/month with Faithlife/Logos on top of already shelling out for a Logos 6 Base Collection. By the time the next version of the Core Engine is released a couple of years from now, I would have invested heavily in Logos Now and Cloud. All I was asking is that people like me who have been investing the money each month in Now or Cloud also be extended priority access to the next version of the Core Engine since it makes perfect sense to include us in the mix since in essence, we've been "pre-paying" for our Logos Base Collection and Crossgrade by subscribing all those months to Now/Cloud. It seems Faithlife/Logos is going to do exactly that and give us priority access to the Core Engine as well, which is perfectly fair and reasonable.

So bottom line, Faithlife/Logos' current policy is everyone gets access to each major version of the Core Engine for free (I can't think of any other major commercial Bible software platform that does this; I've always had to pay for the engine and for engine upgrades from other commercial Bible software companies). The only thing Faithlife/Logos does is give priority access to those who are either investing in purchasing a new Base Package, Crossgrade, and now it seems those who subscribe to Now/Cloud, as those customers are loyally investing solid funds into Faithlife/Logos to assist with the development of the new resources and datasets, and Faithlife/Logos is only rewarding their loyalty and ensuring they get first access to the engine before completely opening the floodgates to everyone.

Nathan Parker

Visit my blog at http://focusingonthemarkministries.com

Posts 1806
LogosEmployee
Phil Gons (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 29 2015 10:45 PM

Phil Gons (Faithlife):
When we release the next major version of the desktop engine, Now and Cloud subscribers will get access first, followed by new base package or crossgrade owners.

This is potentially confusing. Now and Cloud subscribers get access first in the sense that we're already releasing the next generation desktop engine every six weeks. When we officially change the version to 7.0, Now and Cloud subscribers will get access to it on day one, as will those who choose to buy a new base package or upgrade or crossgrade. Now and Cloud subscribers who are beta testers may get access six weeks early.

Posts 439
Mark Stevens | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jul 30 2015 1:16 AM

I am sorry, I find these responses reasoned and condescending. Words cannot describe the disappointment I have with this company. I own that as my own expectations not being met and my own experience. I wish I had never bought a single product from Logos. I simply bought an ongoing bill (or atlas a call to spend money all the time). 

In response to the above posts:

Bob's words re 'Why Subscription' "It provides more predictable revenue." In other words, it is about money. Not service, not mission, but money. 

Bob's words re. The future, "We intend to support our existing purchase model for the foreseeable future." That is not a firm promise. I bought a product I expect said product to be supported and averrable. Upgrade it all you want,, but don't expect me to have to pay regularly for something I already own because it provides a better revenue stream. Imagine if someone came to you and told you you had to pay a tax on books you already owned! Buying books this way is a bad idea for the customer. If I buy actually books the only upgrade I might need is a better pair of glasses as my eyes fail. 

Finally, what REALLY annoys me about Logos is that their core business is to help folks study the Bible. Hogwash, the company is there to make money (as they should) but don't spiritualise the language please. It is condescending. 

Sorry f these thoughts causes discomfort. My responses are not targeted at anyone personally. I have found staff of Logos to be nice and friendly. Likewise with most people on the forums (although certain 5 digit members are at times smug).

Peace be with you, Mark

Posts 3013
SineNomine | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jul 30 2015 5:17 AM

Mark Stevens:
Upgrade it all you want,, but don't expect me to have to pay regularly for something I already own because it provides a better revenue stream.

Mark, you will never have to pay for anything you already own.

Logos Now is a program that allows people to pay a subscription fee for features and resources that they do not own.

Logos Cloud is a program that allows people to pay a subscription fee for resources and features that they do not own.

Faithlife does not have any program for people to pay a subscription fee for anything that they already own, and there has never been any indication whatsoever that they are the slightest bit inclined to change that.

Posts 9051
Forum MVP
Mark Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jul 30 2015 10:17 AM

Mark Stevens:
I am sorry, I find these responses reasoned and condescending. Words cannot describe the disappointment I have with this company.

Mark, I am grieved that you are grieved.

Please take the following as being offered in gentleness. Sometimes strong feelings overwhelm clear thinking. It happens.

Pastor, North Park Baptist Church

Bridgeport, CT USA

Posts 1557
John Kight | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jul 30 2015 11:22 AM

Mark Stevens:
'Why Subscription' "It provides more predictable revenue." In other words, it is about money. Not service, not mission, but money.

For what it may be worth, that steady stream of money only aims to benefit the end user as Faithlife is able to produce new tools and resources that further aid the mission of the company. I am also a long time user of Logos who has spent over $20,000 on Logos products, and I intend to continue spending more, Lord willing (although things are slowing down as my family continues to grow and my income is further stretched). I am joyful at the opportunity to partner with Faithlife in the development of these new Bible study resources and tools through Logos Now (or Cloud), and for a measly $9 a month I get early access and special deals on purchasable products. I couldn't be more happy!     

For book reviews and more visit sojotheo.com 

Posts 13312
Forum MVP
Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jul 30 2015 3:21 PM

Mark Stevens:

Bob's words re. The future, "We intend to support our existing purchase model for the foreseeable future." That is not a firm promise. I bought a product I expect said product to be supported and averrable. 

Mark, I'm pretty sure you've misunderstood what Bob said here. When he says he "intends" to support the existing purchase model, he is NOT saying he intends to allow people to keep using resources they've already purchased (but can't guarantee it). He is saying he intends to allow you to keep purchasing new books for the foreseeable future (but can't 100% guarantee that). There's a big difference.

As for the question of profit. You can't separate that from the question of studying the Bible. I couldn't create something as good as Logos, partly because I don't have all the skills, but mostly because I don't have the money. With $10-$15 million perhaps I could pull a team together to do it. But without those sorts of funds - not a chance. 

The question is not about how much money Faithlife is making. The question is about where thar money is going. If it's going on a helicopter and mansion for the Pritchetts, then I'd agree with your assessment. If it's being reinvested in the job of making Bible Study better/easier/deeper, then you're simply wrong. And when I look at the datasets and new features, it seems clear to me that the revenue is getting reinvested in the product - not just for Logos now subscribers, but in some ways for everyone. 

Posts 439
Mark Stevens | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jul 30 2015 8:37 PM

Mark, Mark, and John - One of the most frustrating things that comes across condescending is the response "Logos will never make you pay for what you already own". I GET THAT! It is true, technically. If you re-read my concern it is not with what I own but with what is used to read what I own. I foresee a day when the only way to access the cloud is to pay for a subscription. Having said, Phil has graciously emailed me and assured me that such a day will never come. i assume he means that even if the engine as we know it disappears then the cloud service will be accessible to all for what they already own.

Here is my beef - I need Logos to read stuff I own. My mistake for investing in such a product. I should've listened to people when they told me to stick with books. Secondly, with the way the product constantly and persistently marketed and the language used to do so. It is wearing and  irritating. 

Like I said, the product promises so much and for me it has delivered next to nothing except more costs. My experience and my disappointment. The switch to cloud or now or whatever is just another way of highlighting this issue for me. 

Posts 1751
Nathan Parker | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jul 30 2015 8:56 PM

Mark Stevens:

Mark, Mark, and John - One of the most frustrating things that comes across condescending is the response "Logos will never make you pay for what you already own". I GET THAT! It is true, technically. If you re-read my concern it is not with what I own but with what is used to read what I own. I foresee a day when the only way to access the cloud is to pay for a subscription. Having said, Phil has graciously emailed me and assured me that such a day will never come. i assume he means that even if the engine as we know it disappears then the cloud service will be accessible to all for what they already own.

Here is my beef - I need Logos to read stuff I own. My mistake for investing in such a product. I should've listened to people when they told me to stick with books. Secondly, with the way the product constantly and persistently marketed and the language used to do so. It is wearing and  irritating. 

Like I said, the product promises so much and for me it has delivered next to nothing except more costs. My experience and my disappointment. The switch to cloud or now or whatever is just another way of highlighting this issue for me. 

You could also use the Send to Kindle feature to send your most critical books to the Kindle app, so in the event you needed a "backup" way to read your most critical books, you could open Kindle and there they are. 

Nathan Parker

Visit my blog at http://focusingonthemarkministries.com

Posts 1806
LogosEmployee
Phil Gons (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jul 30 2015 9:32 PM

Mark Stevens:
If you re-read my concern it is not with what I own but with what is used to read what I own. I foresee a day when the only way to access the cloud is to pay for a subscription. Having said, Phil has graciously emailed me and assured me that such a day will never come. i assume he means that even if the engine as we know it disappears then the cloud service will be accessible to all for what they already own.

As long as we are still in business and building Logos Bible Software, there will be a free engine that will enable you to read your books and use your investment. That's one of the few promises we've made about the future, and it still holds true. I suppose it's possible that desktop software will eventually die (though people have been predicting that for years, and it's not happened yet). In such a future, there would be an alternate free way for you to continue to enjoy your investment (e.g., in a web app or more feature rich mobile apps or some new technology that doesn't even exist yet). The bottom line is that we're not moving to a model where you have to pay to use what you already own. You will have to pay to get access to new content and early access to new tools and enjoy special membership benefits, but not to use your existing library. Our aim, though, is to make the value proposition of our subscription offering so compelling that millions of people will be delighted to pay for the rest of their lives to enjoy all the new content and tools we're offer at such an affordable price. Whichever camp you end up falling into, there's nothing to fear about the future.

Posts 1751
Nathan Parker | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jul 30 2015 9:54 PM

Another thing you could do with the Logos Engine (especially for Logos Cloud subscribers) is to offer a core set of books with a permanent license free (a couple Bible translations, a concise public domain Bible commentary, a Bible dictionary, etc.) so Logos Cloud users who may discontinue their Logos Cloud license would still have access to the Desktop Core Engine (but be moved onto the same release schedule as other free engine owners during major Core Engine releases), their personal user files (so they can still access them or easily export them out of Logos in the unfortunate event they decided to remove the application), as well as a core set of free resources that would allow for very basic Bible study (any books they purchased a permanent license to would also still appear). This way, for Logos Cloud users who fear "losing" anything if they were to discontinue their Cloud subscription would only lose access to the premium resources/datasets if they cancel their subscription. They still have access to the Core Engine, their personal data files, and a very base set of resources to allow them perform a very basic Bible study that would hold them over unless they decide to re-subscribe to Logos Cloud again. You could call the plan "Logos Cloud Starter" or "Logos Cloud Basic". It's just a "free plan" that lets customers know they're not "losing" important data should they pull the plug on Logos Cloud, only their software is reverted into a more limited role.

Nathan Parker

Visit my blog at http://focusingonthemarkministries.com

Posts 352
Cynthia Tucker | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 31 2015 11:39 AM

Nathan, I was curious about what you meant by this: "Since I'm going to be both a Now and Cloud Plus subscriber, I'm going to be paying close to $30/month,"

You know that you if you're a Cloud subscriber you automatically get everything included in Logos Now, right? So there's no need to subscribe to both.

Author of the Chronological Word Truth Life Bible Series

WordTruthLifeBible.com

Posts 1751
Nathan Parker | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 31 2015 1:54 PM

Cynthia Tucker:

Nathan, I was curious about what you meant by this: "Since I'm going to be both a Now and Cloud Plus subscriber, I'm going to be paying close to $30/month,"

You know that you if you're a Cloud subscriber you automatically get everything included in Logos Now, right? So there's no need to subscribe to both.

I was told Cloud Plus doesn't include all the features of Logos Now. Only Cloud Premium does. Therefore, while I'm on Cloud Plus, if I want everything in Logos Now, I still have to subscribe to it extra. Sounds strange, but I guess it's the only way to get it all until I later go on Cloud Premium (in which I could drop Now).

Nathan Parker

Visit my blog at http://focusingonthemarkministries.com

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