Syntax
Is there anyone out there that can help me build a syntax search in Logos 4? Thanks!
Pastor Michael Huffman, Th.A Th.B Th.M
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Post specifically what you're trying to search for here, and someone will likely respond to you with some help.
Also check out the wiki page on syntax search strategy (http://wiki.logos.com/A_Strategy_for_Syntax_Search), as that might help you be able to figure it out on your own.
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I would be happy to help, as Rosie suggests post the specifics of what you want to search for.
I also suggest reading these threads to help acclimate yourself to the logic of syntax search.
http://community.logos.com/forums/t/6312.aspx
http://community.logos.com/forums/t/8109.aspx
http://community.logos.com/forums/t/9154.aspx
http://community.logos.com/forums/t/8872.aspx
http://community.logos.com/forums/t/5356.aspx
I also recommend Mike Heiser's syntax vids linked to here:
Prov. 15:23
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For some reason those first four links weren't clickable. Here they are again. Hopefully they'll work this time. Thanks, Kevin, for digging up all those threads!
http://community.logos.com/forums/t/6312.aspx
http://community.logos.com/forums/t/8109.aspx
http://community.logos.com/forums/t/9154.aspx
http://community.logos.com/forums/t/8872.aspx
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Could someone tell me how to emulate the structure of Ps 122:7 so that I can search for other structures? I feel I'm not to bad in doing syntactic searches, but this one is tough. I own Logos 4 and 3, use 3 for syntax searches as I haven't time to figure out version 4 yet.
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I took a stab at it just because I am trying to learn as much about syntax searches as I can. I could not get a search to return a result that included your passage. It actually runs from verse 7 into verse 8.
I think where I am messing up is emulating the verb that is used by both clauses. The benefactive in verse 8 is also used by both clauses. I would imagine one of the forum's syntax experts is going to look at that passage and say "oh, that's easy". Fortunately right after they do that, they will likely share their knowledge with all of us. I look forward to seeing how this one is handled. It is going to be a great lesson for both of us. Thanks for asking the question.[:)]
Kevin, are you out there?[:D]
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Fred Chapman said:
I took a stab at it just because I am trying to learn as much about syntax searches as I can. I could not get a search to return a result that included your passage. It actually runs from verse 7 into verse 8.
Andersen-Forbes OT syntax search is not something I do eagerly!
The basic structure is Clause ---> multiple Clause IC's and then fill in the appropriate details for each Clause IC (Immediate Constituent). So I got out the A-F Glossary to search it for some terms in the
structure of Ps 122:7 eg. Basic Search for benefactive (right
click benf gram to get the expansion). No results, so I try
beneficiary and get the clues for Clause IC, Other Participants. The
other abbreviations come in a similar fashion.So here is a basic structure that returns Ps 122:7
The two Clauses in the passage appear the same but it was only when I put Anything between Subject and Beneficiary that I got a result.
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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Here's a better query, after I found Location under Space.
It should return 5 results.
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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Dave Hooton said:
Here's a better query
Sorry it was done not in L3, but it should be easily reproduced. Do attempt it in L4 though - you click the Plus + to get a list of elements and you'll get the idea fairly quickly which one of the four puts it where you want it! If it is wrong just right click to Delete it.
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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My first search that provided the example was this:
It produces a fair number of hits. Dave's example above with a gap and then beneficiary is better depending on what you are looking to do with the results.
However, the thing that puzzles me is why this search does not return any results
I thought this structure would avoid any complications from the two clauses sharing a verb... evidently it doesn't. If there's a way to account for a second clause using the verb from another clause (or any similar situation) I haven't figure it out. The expansive nature of the A-F database makes it more difficult to deal with than Cascadia or Opentext.
Prov. 15:23
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Dave Hooton said:
Here's a better query, after I found Location under Space.
It should return 5 results.
Not being familiar with original language, i built a step by step instruction sheet (for my use later) which might be useful to those who haven't used Syntax Query building.
It should guide you step by step using Logos4 to build the above example of Dave's.
Edit: you can use the same process to build Kevin's example.
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Kevin Becker said:
I thought this structure would avoid any complications from the two clauses sharing a verb.
I avoided that structure because I suspected a "gap" relationship between the specified Clause IC's. My KISS principle!
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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steve clark said:
It should guide you step by step using Logos4 to build the above example of Dave's.
Steve, that is excellent. We need to get that on the wiki and tie it in with the existing Syntax topics, somehow .....
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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Dave Hooton said:
We need to get that on the wiki and tie it in with the existing Syntax topics
Dave,
Please check out the new wiki page Setting up a Syntax Search
Also please see if the link to the above page looks OK in A Strategy for Syntax Search , i placed it in the See Also section on the right. If you think it needs to be somewhere else on this page, let me know or feel free to move it.
Also on the Table of Contents page i placed a link under Searching .
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steve clark said:
Please check out the new wiki page Setting up a Syntax Search
That's very well done. I'll incorporate a few refinements (linking Syntax topics) and then we can add a NT (Cascadia) Syntax example to your Setting page - I'll get back with an example.
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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Dave Hooton said:
we can add a NT (Cascadia) Syntax example to your Setting page - I'll get back with an example.
Please include pictures. i don't have Cascadia (it doesn't come with Scholar's package, think you need Silver or Gold). Perhaps i can give you my email address and you could send the pics that way (it would prevent cluttering up the forum). Or you could attach a file as i did on my previous post. (i will check tomorrow....its 2am here...my eyes have gone blurry...[:'(] )
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Well it's nearly Sunday and a busy day ahead here - probably Monday your time before I get back with a file.
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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To all who contributed to this thread, thank you. Though I was not the one who asked the original question I learned from it being asked and then all you syntax guys going to work on it.
Steve I saved your PDF file to have at my finger tip as I continue learning.
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I trust that the OP has also benefited!
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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Guys, thank you so much for your feedback. My query is actually more specific than the way I originally expressed it. In other words I am strictly interested in the syntax of v. 7 only, despite the fact that v. 8 is part of the clause (by virtue of ellipsis of the predicate) and irrespective of the benefactive. For this reason, the solutions by Fred and Dave are not what I need because they include a semantic dimension - "benefactive" - that is too restrictive.
My ultimate interest is in searching for word pairs in poetic couplets, e.g. cases in which the word "sea" occurs in one colon and "earth" appears in the other colon. The problem is twofold 1) cola relate to each other syntactically in various ways - Ps 122:7 is a typical but complex example; 2) cola and clauses are not always co-extensive. In Ps 122:7 we have 3 cola but two clauses, where the second colon - v. 7b - is syntactically part of both 7a and 8a. In other words, v.7b, which is a poetic unit is not a syntactic unit: it is interwoven with two other clauses and has no independent status. I want to create a search query in which I can discover whether my two words occur in each of the first two cola respectively (e.g. "sea" in v. 7a and "earth" in v. 7b). I have concluded that A-F simply can't do this. Kevin's solution doesn't work because it assumes that we the two clauses are next to each other, but they are not, they are interwoven.
After much sweat and bother I have in fact figured out a search query which gives me what I need, including the freedom to have the various CICs in whatever order possible and even for the two cola (the colon with the predicate and the elided colon, i.e. 7a and 7b) to appear in any order (because sometimes it is the first clause that is elided).
I'd like to post the image here but I don't have the software to do so (I'm useless with computers). If someone tells me a good piece of software I ought to download I can copy and post the search query here.
I'll be on holiday, however, from tomorrow evening until a week after Easter, so if you answer by tomorrow morning German time (!) I can post it before I leave
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PhilipESumpter said:
I'd like to post the image here but I don't have the software to do so (I'm useless with computers). If someone tells me a good piece of software I ought to download I can copy and post the search query here.
Jing. It's free and easy to use. You can download it from http://www.jingproject.com/
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PhilipESumpter said:
I'd like to post the image here but I don't have the software to do so
I'll look forward to that! Another free download is IrfanView - http://www.irfanview.com/
Save your image as .jpg or .gif format and upload to the forum using the paper clip icon in the toolbar of your reply window.Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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Dave Hooton said:
Another free download is IrfanView - http://www.irfanview.com/
I've used irfanview for quite a while but never knew that it did screen captures. Thanks for this info. It's smaller and faster than Jing.
πάντα εἰς δόξαν θεοῦ ποιεῖτε
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Dave Hooton said:
Save your image as .jpg or .gif format and upload to the forum using the paper clip icon in the toolbar of your reply window.
Or .png format works, too -- I've been preferring that lately as it seems to preserve the screen resolution quality better than .jpg.
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PhilipESumpter said:
After much sweat and bother I have in fact figured out a search query which gives me what I need, including the freedom to have the various CICs in whatever order possible and even for the two cola (the colon with the predicate and the elided colon, i.e. 7a and 7b) to appear in any order (because sometimes it is the first clause that is elided).
I'd like to post the image here but I don't have the software to do so (I'm useless with computers). If someone tells me a good piece of software I ought to download I can copy and post the search query here.
I'd love to see your search. There you've already had plenty of good advice on how to get a screen-capture.
Thanks in advance.
Prov. 15:23
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Gary O'Neal said:
I've used irfanview for quite a while but never knew that it did screen captures.
I tend to use the keyboard PrtSc (or Alt-PrtSc), paste it into IrfanView and then use crop on the part I want to save. It also has a paint addin for annotating the image with arrows, text, etc.
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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I've figured out how to take screen shots. Here's my search, which is admittedly a bit clumsy but will get me what I'm looking for:
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Sorry, I've just realized that you all responded to my post! I didn't notice that there was a page 2 right after my comments. Thanks for your help. I used Jing (.png format).
I should add that the clunky search query above is only good when you are specifically looking for cases of parallelism in which the terms שלום and ארמן appear in two clauses that are linked by ellipsis of the predacator. If you are just interested in cases where these terms appear in parallel clauses, regardless of how they are linked, there is a far simpler search query which looks like this:
This won't cover all cases in the poetry of the Bible, as A-F link clauses in various ways. In many cases they are just juxtaposed to each other, in other there is a clause in the middle (a tricolon), or in other cases again the parallelism is tagged as a single clause. To develop a thorough set of parallelism searches you have to work through all the possibilities and ring them off, on after the other, each time you research a particular word pair. A lot of work but it's fun.
By the way, a major drawback of the Logos 4 version is that when I hover over a node such as "sent" it doesn't tell me that this is a "super-clausal structure," which I would need to know in order to imitate it in a search. Logos 3 does this.
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Final comment on my "clunky" search! I forget to edit the lexical items as I used it for another search. You would just put each of the terms of the word pair you are researching in the segment section (for Ps 122:7 that would be שלום and ארמן). The results are clunky as for Ps 122:7 you'd get two results, one for each possibility. For other examples you'd have to keep an eye out for verses that have at least two hits.
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Dave Hooten has explained the function of the node "gap" to me, which produces an even better search, I think. I've posted it here: http://community.logos.com/forums/p/15684/119516.aspx#119516.
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