Other theological dictionaries in searches?

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Edwin Kwok | Forum Activity | Posted: Wed, Feb 24 2010 8:07 PM

Dictionaries like the new OT dictionaries and the one of Jesus and Gospels doesn't seem to show up with the other "normal" dictionaries. Just wondering how to incorporate them in searches (up top)?

On the same note, those dictionaries don't seem to have entries or heading as search fields, how do you access the information across them easily and efficiently?

Thanks in advance,

Edwin

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Mark Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Feb 24 2010 8:33 PM

EdwinKwok:
Just wondering how to incorporate them in searches (up top)?

Unfortunately you can't. Logos has chosen which dictionaries appear and has set them up them to allow this.

EdwinKwok:
those dictionaries don't seem to have entries or heading as search fields

This seems correct and would reflect the sad state of heading searching in Logos. Neither of these works (nor the New Testament ones by IVP) are searchable by heading.

Pastor, North Park Baptist Church

Bridgeport, CT USA

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Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Feb 24 2010 10:49 PM

EdwinKwok:

On the same note, those dictionaries don't seem to have entries or heading as search fields, how do you access the information across them easily and efficiently?

As Mark has explained, at present they are not indexed by heading, so the best you can do for now is have a vague idea of which volume you want to look something up in, open it and then open its Table of Contents pane and navigate directly to the heading (if that topic exists in the dictionary) that way:

It's kind of no better than looking it up in the print-based resource (except that you can copy/paste from there, and there are a few hyperlinks in the text). I hope Logos makes these dictionaries more easily searchable; that's supposed to be one of the main points of having them in electronic format!

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Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 25 2010 2:08 AM

The best way to search all the dictionaries for an entry, is to find the entry for one dictionary, then click the plus tab. You'll get a windows with two columns. The smaller, right-hand column will contain all the other dictionaries that share that entry. In Logos 4.0b, due soon, you'll also be able to use parallel resource associations to achieve the same effect.

If you're interested in why things are the way they are, this old thread, and particularly this post from Logos employee Sean Boisen explain why.

Posts 60
Edwin Kwok | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 25 2010 2:51 AM

Mark, what pane is that? I have yet to see a plus sign like that.

Edwin

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Kevin Becker | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 25 2010 2:55 AM

EdwinKwok:

Mark, what pane is that? I have yet to see a plus sign like that.

Edwin

Posts 60
Edwin Kwok | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 25 2010 3:20 AM

Kevin Becker:

EdwinKwok:

Mark, what pane is that? I have yet to see a plus sign like that.

Edwin

Aaaaah! Thank you all for the replies and help. This is very useful!

Edwin

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Sean Boisen | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 25 2010 8:56 AM

Mark Barnes:

If you're interested in why things are the way they are, this old thread, and particularly this post from Logos employee Sean Boisen explain why.

Just to sprinkle in a bit of hope:

  • We hope to roll out heading-specific search in the near future. We know how to do it technically: the major issue at this point is that changing books and journals to support it will require a large download-and-reindex cycle, and we know people don't always like those Tongue Tied But it's coming: it's just a matter of how soon.
  • We have several additional dictionaries nearing readiness for inclusion in the Topics/Look it Up section, and we're staffing up to get the rest of the important ones completed this year.
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Todd Phillips | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 25 2010 9:24 AM

Sean Boisen:

Just to sprinkle in a bit of hope:

  • We hope to roll out heading-specific search in the near future. We know how to do it technically: the major issue at this point is that changing books and journals to support it will require a large download-and-reindex cycle, and we know people don't always like those Tongue Tied But it's coming: it's just a matter of how soon.
  • We have several additional dictionaries nearing readiness for inclusion in the Topics/Look it Up section, and we're staffing up to get the rest of the important ones completed this year.

Thanks for the update. Looking forward to it.

 

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Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 25 2010 9:31 AM

Sean,

That's great news. I have my update channel set to beta in anticipation!

Mark

Posts 84
Ron Barry | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 25 2010 9:52 AM

I would have thought the IVP Dictionaries which were just released would have been searchable. Are these slated for editing to allow inclusion in topical searches?

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Louis St. Hilaire | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 25 2010 10:09 AM

Rosie Perera:
As Mark has explained, at present they are not indexed by heading, so the best you can do for now is have a vague idea of which volume you want to look something up in, open it and then open its Table of Contents pane and navigate directly to the heading (if that topic exists in the dictionary) that way:

While we haven't yet implemented the field searching on headings that Sean speaks of, these dictionaries are indexed by headword, so you can find articles and navigate using the active index box:

Posts 24
Jason Rogers | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 25 2010 10:09 AM

Is there a way of finding out which books are searchable before buying? If I would have known the IVP OT were not searchable I wouldnt have bought them.

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Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 25 2010 10:28 AM

Jason,

The IVP OT is searchable, you just can't search for topics. On the other hand, you can browse for topics. Can you explain what you're trying to do that you can't do?

Mark

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Sean Boisen | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 25 2010 11:07 AM

Ron Barry:

I would have thought the IVP Dictionaries which were just released would have been searchable. Are these slated for editing to allow inclusion in topical searches?

Yes, they are.

Here are the dictionaries that are currently included:

Those already in the pipeline for release:

Virtually all the subject-oriented resources we have (Bible dictionaries, encyclopedias, etc.) are slated for inclusion: it just takes time.

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Mark Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 25 2010 11:10 AM

Jason Rogers:
Is there a way of finding out which books are searchable before buying?

All resources are searchable by surface text (all the words the resource contains). Some resources can be searched by footnote or other feature. That is not something that you can learn ahead of time. I suppose Logos could make a way to get that info ahead of time.

Jason Rogers:
If I would have known the IVP OT were not searchable I wouldnt have bought them.

Logos has been working on making searching by the headwords or subject headings for Logos 4 for some time now. As Sean Boisen pointed out we should expect that capability shortly.

You  can search for any word you want in your IVP Dictionaries. You just can't limit your search at this point to the article headings. This is just like other dictionaries you may already have in Logos 4.

Pastor, North Park Baptist Church

Bridgeport, CT USA

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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 25 2010 10:25 PM

Sean Boisen:

Sean it is good we are getting these improvements.

I wonder if you would comment on a search for the phrase "seven words":-

The Topic section shows

  • seven words, the in Eerdmans Bible Dictionary
  • seven words, the in New Bible Dictionary (NBD), and
  • seven last sayings of Jesus in Tyndale Bible Dictionary

In 4.0b Beta only Eerdmans and NBD appear in a Parallel Resource list, but the Library results show the topic "seven words from the cross" in Holman Illustrated Bible Dictionary and Parallel Resources includes Harper's Bible Dictionary and Nelson's New Illustrated Bible Dictionary. If I search for "seven words from the cross" there are no Topics!

Q1. Do I have to rely on the inclusion of "seven words from the cross" as an alternate search for "seven words"?

Q2. Do I also have to wait for Harper's and Nelson's to be released as you describe?

Q3. Will it be possible to search for "seven words+" as a Topic to avoid the dependency on alternate searches ie. all topics that begin with "seven words"?

I use the plus + out of necessity to differentiate it from a normal wildcard search.

thanks,

Dave
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Posts 139
Sean Boisen | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 26 2010 11:01 PM

Dave Hooton:

Q1. Do I have to rely on the inclusion of "seven words from the cross" as an alternate search for "seven words"?

Q2. Do I also have to wait for Harper's and Nelson's to be released as you describe?

Q3. Will it be possible to search for "seven words+" as a Topic to avoid the dependency on alternate searches ie. all topics that begin with "seven words"?

I use the plus + out of necessity to differentiate it from a normal wildcard search.

A1. In the short term, the only foolproof way to find the "Seven Last Sayings of Jesus" concept is to search one of the terms associated with it (in your example, that's "Seven Last Sayings of Jesus" OR "The Seven Last Words" OR "The Seven Words" OR "Seven Words"). It's clear we ought to add "seven words from the cross" as well, but until we do, that string won't match the concept.

A2. At present, the only foolproof way to find a non-LCV dictionary article is to know what it's called (that's one reason we're building the LCV). So yes, until Harper's and Nelson's are released as LCV dictionaries, they won't work the way i described.

A3. I don't think adding wildcard search is the right approach to expanding the set of alternate terms: they're still too technical for most people. And partial matching (against 11k concepts) easily returns too much. Instead, our plan is both to expand the alternate terms ourselves, and to draw on user contributions at topics.logos.com to grow the list (though that's not happening yet).

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Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Feb 27 2010 2:52 AM

For the benefit of those who haven't been following this discussion since November, LCV stands for (I think) Logos Controlled Vocabulary. The basic idea is that Logos builds a database of synonyms for topics, so that if, for example, I search for Donkey Logos knows that I could also want information on Ass.

(On a sidenote, when I typed "donkey" into Logos Search, one of the suggestions was "donkeypopefart". My first thought was an anti-catholic intern had beat the system, but the word actually comes from my "The Rhetoric of the Reformation"!)

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Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Feb 27 2010 3:41 AM

Mark Barnes:

For the benefit of those who haven't been following this discussion since November, LCV stands for (I think) Logos Controlled Vocabulary.

Thanks! You read my mind. I was wondering that. I guessed Logos Concept something-or-other, because I've heard the word "concepts" used in talking about this database (Sean mentioned "concepts" three times in his post). But a search for LCV and "Logos Concept" on the forums came up nil.

Mark Barnes:

(On a sidenote, when I typed "donkey" into Logos Search, one of the suggestions was "donkeypopefart". My first thought was an anti-catholic intern had beat the system, but the word actually comes from my "The Rhetoric of the Reformation"!)

LOL Smile  Now where are the users wanting that to be censored from the vocabulary list for delicate eyes... Maybe there should be a rating system for the resources like there is for movies, so people don't accidentally buy something that might be offensive to them.

Oh, that Luther! And if you go to the text in question and hover over the footnote at the end of the sentence to find out where it comes from, you see that it isn't even the worst he wrote. Amusing that the footnote-writer felt it necessary to direct people where to find the crudest language in Luther's Works. Sorry, I'm not going to join in helping you find it. If you're that curious, you'll have to buy The Rhetoric of the Reformation, and then Luther's Works (which I don't have and am not buying just for this even though I admit I am curious).

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