Erdmans Catholic Thought Collection - Seconbd Thoughts

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Deacon Steve | Forum Activity | Posted: Tue, May 3 2016 7:10 PM

Louis and Brody,

I'm thinking about cancelling my long standing order (10/16/2914) for the subject collection.  I pre-ordered back then at $197.95.  It is a $19 discount from the current price, ready to ship on May 18.

I am have some second thoughts.  I always support the Verbum offerings, as evident from my purchase history.  My in-place orders on future resources is not inconsequential. 

However, on careful review, this collection has some authors that are not Catholic and it has raised questions for me regarding the content and price.

I can only rely on the product page description provided ...

     1.  Ralph P. Martin is not the Catholic author Ralph Martin, they are two different people and the former is not Catholic.  His resource on the Worship of God is not "Catholic Thought".

     2. Mark E. Powells book on Papal Infallibility is not "Catholic Thought".  According to the description, it is a protestant evaluation.

This specific issue has come up previously with resources from Ralph P. Martin.  Something is not lining up as it should.

Not trying to be hard headed, but I am ready to cancel this order in the next few days.  Please let me know if the collection stands at is is or can be modified at this late date.

 

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 3 2016 7:32 PM

When the publisher is not a Catholic press, I am not surprised that the collection is a mixture of thought by Catholics and Catholic thought viewed by others. I always find Mark E. Powells worth my time .... Ralph P. Martin I don't recall reading anything from or about ...

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Friedrich | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 3 2016 8:42 PM

MJ. Smith:

When the publisher is not a Catholic press, I am not surprised that the collection is a mixture of thought by Catholics and Catholic thought viewed by others. I always find Mark E. Powells worth my time .... Ralph P. Martin I don't recall reading anything from or about ...

Ralph P is well thought of.

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Don Awalt | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 4 2016 3:54 AM

The Martin book on 'Will many be saved?' seems to have good reviews on Amazon, and its positive credits from Cardinals Dolan and Wuerl are a good sign, as both are pretty orthodox (especially Dolan). I am not sure about his book on worship, no reviews on Amazon - it certainly seems to have a bent that steers away from the Mass as sacrifice with a possibly evangelical orientation, but it's hard to tell. Helping people see the relevance of the Mass is an important topic that could be expanded on without being contradictory to Church teaching, but that's a guess on his topic.

The Powell book is clearly not a Catholic teaching perspective, and appears to attack that which the Church teaches from the little I was able to read. Despite the fact people like to cloud a term like "Catholic thought" into meaning "if there is a Catholic that believes it, it is Catholic thought", that is not what Catholic thought means. An author can develop thought about Catholic teaching in ways that offer insight, perspective, reflection without taking obviously contradictory positions and developing them. While there is room for that in the world debate for sure it is disingenuous to the title of the collection. IMHO this book does not belong in the collection for sure.

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Average Joe | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 4 2016 8:00 AM

Don Awalt:

The Martin book on 'Will many be saved?' seems to have good reviews on Amazon, and its positive credits from Cardinals Dolan and Wuerl are a good sign, as both are pretty orthodox (especially Dolan). I am not sure about his book on worship, no reviews on Amazon - it certainly seems to have a bent that steers away from the Mass as sacrifice with a possibly evangelical orientation, but it's hard to tell. Helping people see the relevance of the Mass is an important topic that could be expanded on without being contradictory to Church teaching, but that's a guess on his topic.

The Powell book is clearly not a Catholic teaching perspective, and appears to attack that which the Church teaches from the little I was able to read. Despite the fact people like to cloud a term like "Catholic thought" into meaning "if there is a Catholic that believes it, it is Catholic thought", that is not what Catholic thought means. An author can develop thought about Catholic teaching in ways that offer insight, perspective, reflection without taking obviously contradictory positions and developing them. While there is room for that in the world debate for sure it is disingenuous to the title of the collection. IMHO this book does not belong in the collection for sure.

"Will Many Be Saved?" is by the Catholic Ralph Martin that teaches at Sacred Heart Major Seminary in Detroit. Only "The Worship of God" book is by the non-Catholic Ralph P. Martin.

Two different Ralph Martins in one collection. That's not confusing at all. Stick out tongue

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SineNomine | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 4 2016 11:03 AM

Average Joe:
Two different Ralph Martins in one collection. That's not confusing at all. Stick out tongue

Not only that, but the Catholic Ralph Martin gets an erroneous middle P initial on the product page, and the author link--which is for the Catholic one, not R. P. Martin, who misses out--actually leads to the author page of the Protestant one.

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SineNomine | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 4 2016 11:10 AM

MJ. Smith:
When the publisher is not a Catholic press, I am not surprised that the collection is a mixture of thought by Catholics and Catholic thought viewed by others.

Even ignoring the non-Catholic authors, the Catholic ones vary dramatically in theological bent, not only in chosen subject matter.

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Ken McGuire | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 4 2016 2:50 PM

SineNomine:
Even ignoring the non-Catholic authors, the Catholic ones vary dramatically in theological bent, not only in chosen subject matter.

Not meaning to highjack this thread, but this is a potential problem with just about every tradition. I know I grit my teeth at some of the "Lutherans" highlighted. But that said, one of Rome's strengths is its very theological diversity. While there certainly are standards of what is (and isn't) legitimate, there is also very legitimate diversity about how to express it - with discussion/debate over this that happens over the centuries.

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 4 2016 3:11 PM

Now I'm confused.

Logos 7 Collectors Edition

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SineNomine | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, May 5 2016 3:52 AM

Matthew C Jones:

Now I'm confused.

Could you elaborate, please?

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Louis St. Hilaire | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 9 2016 12:18 PM

Steve:

1.  Ralph P. Martin is not the Catholic author Ralph Martin, they are two different people and the former is not Catholic.  His resource on the Worship of God is not "Catholic Thought".

     2. Mark E. Powells book on Papal Infallibility is not "Catholic Thought".  According to the description, it is a protestant evaluation.

I'm not sure what happened here, but I think because it's a Protestant publisher (and really, just a sub-collection within a larger bundle), it somehow got posted without being vetted by someone from Verbum. The inclusion of the Ralph P. Martin book is obviously a mistake (embarrassing, frankly). Powell's book on papal infallibility is on-topic in a way but a mismatch with the title of the collection and an odd choice if the intended market is Catholics.

I'll look into it, but I doubt we're going to want to monkey with it this late in the game.

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Deacon Steve | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 9 2016 2:40 PM

Thanks for the reply, Louis.  I'm interested in all the volumes except those mentioned. 

After much thought I cancelled my order even though I had secured the original pre-pub pricing (a little below the current offering).  Sad  I thought it was a little too high for just the ten volumes I would like to have.  Maybe someday those will be offered individually or in some other arrangement.

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SineNomine | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 10 2016 11:21 AM

Steve:
I'm interested in all the volumes except those mentioned. 

I'm hoping that this collection will soon be broken up. Something like Will Many Be Saved, for example, will be appealing to many people who would never be interested in any of the others. Similar statements could be made for some of the other volumes as well.

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SineNomine | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 18 2016 4:31 PM

Louis St. Hilaire:
I'm not sure what happened here, but I think because it's a Protestant publisher (and really, just a sub-collection within a larger bundle), it somehow got posted without being vetted by someone from Verbum. The inclusion of the Ralph P. Martin book is obviously a mistake (embarrassing, frankly). Powell's book on papal infallibility is on-topic in a way but a mismatch with the title of the collection and an odd choice if the intended market is Catholics.

For numerous reasons, please break up this bundle soon.

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