Logos for Dummies (Logos 101)

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Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Aug 15 2016 11:12 AM

Well, I guess you'll have to remain intrigued.

Right off the bat, your solution is not in the world of normal people. I'd never have guessed from your display, and I had to read your explanation twice (vs hit the Olivetree button and be done).  I'd bet it doesn't interface well ... but who knows? ... even after 7 years, the L4-6 series don't sync safely. As James recommends, I keep them off for commentaries.  The apps are even worse.  Not to mention, no leaders.

Note also your solution duplicates the hidden link buttons (another 2 no-no's for easy interfaces).  Remember, the discussion here isn't Logos' current target group of trained pastors.

You wanted more specifics, but I prefaced my remarks by doubting Josh's success with suggestions.  Or anyone else. But for you:

- Grouping like resources in the library for quick selection (remember, normal people, not highly trained, that did tags, collections, etc.)

- A 'back' button that is global to the layout (I've never succeeded using the Logos back button ... yes, history panel, etc   .... we're talking Bible class)

- Verse selector smart ... the Logos app has a good one. And yes, a panel if desired.

Plus many more.  And for the record, I'd say about a third in my Bible classes use computers/mobiles. Times a'changing. 

Actually, the Logos apps should solve EasyLogos functionality ... but don't.  There's never anything simple in Faithlife's world of gadgets.

"God will save his fallen angels and their broken wings He'll mend."

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Graham Criddle | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Aug 15 2016 11:16 AM

Thanks Denise

Phil Gons - in another thread - has spoken about wanting to do something around ease of use. Specifics like these are helpful.

Graham 

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Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Aug 15 2016 11:27 AM

James.  I could have sworn you recommended unlinking commentaries .... that sounds like turning functionality off.

I agree Logos is a constrained market.  But I wouldn't want to run a business where 'go somewhere else' is the primary solution for getting new customers.

And no, you're not the group Josh is discussing.

"God will save his fallen angels and their broken wings He'll mend."

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Aug 15 2016 11:50 AM

Denise:
And no, you're not the group Josh is discussing.

How many in that group are willing to drop a thousand dollars on software to help them look good in a Bible study circle?

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James Chandler | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Aug 15 2016 12:06 PM

Denise:

James.  I could have sworn you recommended unlinking commentaries .... that sounds like turning functionality off.

I agree Logos is a constrained market.  But I wouldn't want to run a business where 'go somewhere else' is the primary solution for getting new customers.

And no, you're not the group Josh is discussing.

I did. But I don't think it's just a matter of turning on and off functionality. I think it's a matter of how you use it. One person wants the Bible and commentary to follow, another doesn't. To that end, it is a different mindset.

I think every business has a 'go somewhere else' mentality to some extent. Some people don't like Microsoft for whatever reason, some do. Bottom line is you can't please everyone and you shouldn't try. Just do the best you can with your target group. For those on the fringe offer good ways for them to learn. But some won't, can't, or don't want to learn new software. I have them in my life.

I used to own a small business. It didn't matter how hard you tried to please people, some will never be satisfied. It doesn't mean you don't try, but ultimately business is about making money and you could go broke trying to please everyone.

Running on ASUS Windows 10 I7 24 gig of ram, 1 Terabyte drive.

Philippians 2:3 Do nothing from selfish ambition or conceit, but in humility count others more significant than yourselves.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Aug 15 2016 12:07 PM

Denise:
but I prefaced my remarks by doubting Josh's success with suggestions.

I can vouch for the fact that some of my suggestions have been implemented. Now I can't vouch that they weren't already on the list Wink But concrete suggestion like those you listed do get considered ... and you are well qualified to put together a very good list that would get serious consideration.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Aug 15 2016 12:08 PM

Matthew, you're right on, about the Cadallac.  But Logos competitors somehow do it for far less. And on the other side of the Rockies in Washington, too.

'Looking good' is also interesting. From what I can see, it's almost universal, but most people won't discuss it.  It's most obvious when someone struggles with language (here, hispanics), eyesight, or mental limitations. But they very much want to contribute. Skipping them denies them esteem ... which we at least try to avoid (in our classes).

"God will save his fallen angels and their broken wings He'll mend."

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Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Aug 15 2016 12:16 PM

James ... I'd agree, absent Logos dumping a sizable percent of hand-picked employees and families right before Christmas.

I'd hope their issue was 'not enough customers' (vs a great time to execute Bob's book expertise).

MJ ... I appreciate your comments, but I think you do slave away with helping 'normal people' Josh is thinking of ... your suggestions are far more apt.

"God will save his fallen angels and their broken wings He'll mend."

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Aug 15 2016 12:58 PM

Denise:
Matthew, you're right on, about the Cadallac.  But Logos competitors somehow do it for far less.

My point is Faithlife doesn't try at all!  I don't think they are marketing to Bible study groups.

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BriM | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Aug 15 2016 1:09 PM

Graham Criddle:
it would be really helpful if you could explain exactly what you are looking for and on which platforms

I also find Logos simultaneously too complex, too simple and too slow!

On the desktop, I realise there is a lot of power available, but much of it is hidden behind a complex command-language interface. I don't use complex features often enough to get to know them intuitively. I realise that some might recommend me to take a Proctor course, but really, I don't have the time - I have a full time secular job to do plus my academic studies and assignments to complete. I can't afford to take yet more time to study how to use a tool. Even if I could, I would remember barely a fraction of the information as I wouldn't be using it often. The tool should be intuitive to use, so that documentation and training are rarely necessary.

One frustration is that the linking of panels isn't intelligent. My favourite layout has a panel of Bibles and another of commentaries. These are linked so that if I scroll down one panel, the other follows suit (all resources are in the same link set). This tends to work OK in the simple case, where I'm simply reading down one panel and letting the other follow me. But, usually, I switch between them. I read the UBS, read a bit of commentary, read the NIV and ESV, then a bit more commentary, then a different commentary, then back to the first commentary, etc. The problem is that every time I switch the resource in a panel it jumps back to the start of the section that refers to the other pane - even if I'm already part way through reading the text in a panel. I can understand why it's doing this, but find it very inconvenient and it could do better by realising that I'm already positioned at a place in a resource that corresponds to the linked resource in the other pane.

A similar issue for me is if I click on a commentary set that doesn't have a volume for the book open in my bibles pane. It then opens any volume (I think it's the last one I used) in the commentary set and pulls the bible along with it - losing my place and making me have to navigate back to exactly where I was in the bible pane before continuing. I have many commentary sets open and can't possibly remember which of them has the book I'm looking at, so this proves a big time waster for me. Surely, it ought to be easy to show a "No corresponding resource" message in these circumstances, rather than doing a link I'm certain not to want. For some reason that I totally don't understand, the back button doesn't do anything rational in these circumstances. I could put up with the inadvertant jump if "back" would take me back to where I was, but no - it goes off somewhere mysterious.

On the tablet (Android and IOS), I find the apps are too simple to do what I want. On the desktop, I have two main panels open, one containing bibles and the other commentaries, all of them linked and with tabs to flick between them. I like to be able to move between bibles and commentaries easily. I can't do that anything like as conveniently on the tablets - at best, I can get two panes linked, but there are no tabs - and so I have to go through a laborious process of choosing a translation and opening it to switch between resources. Also, a key omission (or one that I can't find) is the ability to see the morphology and gloss by hovering over words in Greek NTs.

Yet, despite the lack of functionality, it takes a long time to do anything with the apps. In a bible study group it takes me significantly longer to find something than other members who have software costing less than one percent of what I've invested in Logos.

For me, getting these basics addressed is way more important than adding new whizzy functionality. Seriously: the only difference I'm certain of between Logos 4, 5 and 6 is that the version 4 logo was blue on white, version 5 was white on blue and 6 had rounded edges. I know there is new functionality in there and that I've paid a lot for it. But I couldn't tell anyone what it is.

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Graham Criddle | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Aug 15 2016 1:18 PM

BriM:
I also find Logos simultaneously too complex, too simple and too slow!

Thanks for the detailed response - this is the sort of information I expect Faithlife will find useful.

BriM:
Also, a key omission (or one that I can't find) is the ability to see the morphology and gloss by hovering over words in Greek NTs.

On this specific - if you "long press" (press and hold) on a word you will get a popup menu. Choosing Lookup should give you what you want (assuming you are online). 

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DIsciple II | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Aug 15 2016 1:23 PM

Matthew C Jones:

Denise:
And no, you're not the group Josh is discussing.

How many in that group are willing to drop a thousand dollars on software to help them look good in a Bible study circle?

For me I honestly have never seen  Logos as something to be generalily used during a bible study discussion group, except for accessing a bible and study bible, like you would if you had your print bible / study bible in hand, and taking the odd note. Any depth use of Logos i have been done in preparation for the study or as a follow up after the study. I haven't thought during a weekly bible discussion  when it's my opportunity turn to talk, I havent said "Let me just 'Logos' that and I'll share my gleanings." 

So to Matthew's point I don't see a whole lot of people dropping a bundle of cash to purchase both Logos and a device - laptop or tablet - which they can bring to a weekly bible discussion group and and also saying "Let me 'Logos' that before I contribute to the discussion and FWIW even though it would be nice to get it right I've never seen anyone being chipped for getting the pronunciation of one of those people or place names wrong.

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DIsciple II | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Aug 15 2016 1:38 PM

BriM:

Seriously: the only difference I'm certain of between Logos 4, 5 and 6 is that the version 4 logo was blue on white, version 5 was white on blue and 6 had rounded edges. I know there is new functionality in there and that I've paid a lot for it. But I couldn't tell anyone what it is.

 

A very accurate description. Yes

Posts 11327
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Aug 15 2016 1:45 PM

Well, doc, the issue now is now how much cash to drop in Bible study?

Regarding Bible software in Bible class, it can be quite helpful with quick questions folks have. Personally, even though I have $30k or so invested (not near Matthew), a background commentary or Bible Knowlege Comm often does wonders for most questions. Also quickly how a word is used, etc.  I suspect Josh's issue doesn't required a lot of cash droppings.

"God will save his fallen angels and their broken wings He'll mend."

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Aug 15 2016 2:14 PM

BriM:
Seriously: the only difference I'm certain of between Logos 4, 5 and 6 is that the version 4 logo was blue on white, version 5 was white on blue and 6 had rounded edges. I know there is new functionality in there and that I've paid a lot for it. But I couldn't tell anyone what it is.

In some ways this may be high praise indicating that the new functions slid seamlessly in with the old and were simply used. For example, the amount of information accessible by the Context Menu (right click menu) has expanded tremendously ... with some of the information not being previously available. Similarly with the available pre-built visual filters functions. There are also some additional features that are so familiar one doesn't notice they are new such as the search icon in the resource panel tool bar providing an inline search. On the other hand, some of the additions are difficult for a beginner user to figure out even if they "understand" how it works - search extensions, labeling, prioritization ... As users, we need to give Logos feedback on which of these are functions that we as "simple users" want to be able to use and which are things we are fine "leaving to the experts" - in which case the experts should provide the appropriate feedback.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Kevin Byford (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Aug 15 2016 2:40 PM

BriM:
On the tablet (Android and IOS), I find the apps are too simple to do what I want. On the desktop, I have two main panels open, one containing bibles and the other commentaries, all of them linked and with tabs to flick between them. I like to be able to move between bibles and commentaries easily. I can't do that anything like as conveniently on the tablets - at best, I can get two panes linked, but there are no tabs - and so I have to go through a laborious process of choosing a translation and opening it to switch between resources.

On iOS (but not on Android), there are two methods for making this easier.

1) Tap on the resource and long-press the back button to show the navigation history. https://monosnap.com/file/PwdrmqUuHXmyaNK1GG4pEaEaNPCF1S  

2) Use a two-finger left/right swipe gesture to navigate to/from passages/resources/guides, etc. https://monosnap.com/file/P3j2luv1MWRj0lGnI89sVa7ivWqSTx 

Posts 1088
Lee | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Aug 16 2016 3:21 AM

JoshInRl 

I am just wondering if you have taken time to view the many Logos free training videos that are on-line?

I have been using from ver 4, when I was a new user the first thing I did start looking at the videos and post questions asking for help on the Forums. 

I do have to say that using computers has never been difficult for me, and understanding new software.

But I find Logos as a program great, and just a little work with the Layouts should make the Bible Study easy for you..

As far as a Bible study Mode look at these two links to videos   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ulI06IPS6Lw second is a Logos webinar  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gl3PTkEduPg 

I hope this helps you.

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