Logos for Dummies (Logos 101)

As explored in earlier posts when you have requested something similar - see https://community.logos.com/forums/t/124201.aspx - for an example it would be really helpful if you could explain exactly what you are looking for and on which platforms.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/838193#Comment_838193

Windows 10 - Faster, efficient, basic functionality. (btw, I find the lack of development of a simple Logos app for Windows 10 shocking!)

Easier clutter free homepage (yes I know you can choose what is on it...but the choices are underdeveloped and predominately sales oriented). New users and non developer types should be able to more easily customize layouts when they turn on Logos - not forced into becoming Logos programmers immediately.
One click intuitive functionality that links your Top Bibles and a couple of commentaries (without becoming a mini Logos programmer first!)
The ability to click on a word in your Top Bible and have it pronounced properly so you do not look foolish in a Bible study round table study.
Massive overhaul of all Bible tools that looked promising (like Factbook) but are in actuality not easy to use.
Move the "Getting Started" area and leave it as a menu help along with vastly improved help functionality with all the Wiki's that others who understand how difficult Logos truly is to use created and developed please.

These would be a great beginning.

Also, in case anyone thinks I am all about the negative and critical...I enjoyed this post and think such functionality should be an easy set-and-forget that doesn't require a scholar or programmer to maneuver. They should hire this man to go to Bible studies, take notes, and report back to Logos saying "Ok, here is what we need to scale back, fix, or improve for the average non-power user..."

https://blog.logos.com/2016/08/choose-top-bibles-logos/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+LogosBibleSoftwareBlog+%28Logos+Bible+Software+Blog%29

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/838197#Comment_838197

Easier clutter free menu (yes I know you can choose what is on it...but the choices are underdeveloped and predominately sales oriented)

Which menu - do you mean the HomePage or something else?

One click intuitive functionality that links your top bibles and a couple of commentaries (without becoming a mini Logos programmer first!)

Using Custom Home Page Layouts (in this case for "Passage") - as outlined at https://community.logos.com/forums/p/122221/798893.aspx#798893 allows me to configure my system so that just entering a passage on the Home Page

opens Bibles and linked commentaries as required

The ability to click on a word in your Top Bible and have it pronounced properly so you do not look foolish in a Bible study round table study.

I thought you were happy with Mike's suggestion on this at https://community.logos.com/forums/p/112866/748723.aspx#748723

Massive overhaul of all Bible tools that looked promising (like Factbook) but are in actuality not easy to use.

Sorry - not enough detail in this to comment

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/838198#Comment_838198

Graham, thanks for the care you take in your replies. Do you think that anyone at Logos actually visits Bible studies around the country say at a country church with regular non-programming types? Just curious.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/838201#Comment_838201

Josh

DId my suggestions help at all?

And let's talk about the software not what other people do.

Graham

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/838213#Comment_838213

Yes, you are always helpful (seriously). I still long for easy basic functionality. The only thing I see in the list of Logos Now functionality that looks remotely practical to me is the NT use of the OT set, sorry.

I will abandon my earnest pursuit of wondering if anyone from Logos ventures out from their office to actual Bible studies with real Christians attempting to make use of the software...and return to my overdue seminary studies. I have a paper due. With any luck I can make use of Logos to do it - I pray so anyway.

Simon’s Brother

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/838198#Comment_838198

I recommend that Logos developers and software app people travel the country and randomly visit actual regular Bible studies.

On this point I've never seen Logos used within the context of a bible study, very few people I know own it - and maybe what Josh is highlighting is the issue why few people I know would own it, let alone use it within a bible study.

But I don't ever see Logos doing this because they don't really see the person in the pew as their target customer, its the minister, the student at bible college or the academic they see as their customer and so a Logos Easy is not really high on their agenda because someone who would purchase this is likely to never again make another purchase and Logos wants customers who are repeat purchaser, not one off buyers.

Easier clutter free menu (yes I know you can choose what is on it...but the choices are underdeveloped and predominately sales oriented)

Which menu - do you mean the HomePage or something else?

I agree wtih Josh that the home page is too much of a sales ptich than a useful launch page for bible study. I don't open up the software to it and only occasionally look, more so to see what resources have been updated and then quickly check to see if there are actually any useful blog posts.

The ability to click on a word in your Top Bible and have it pronounced properly so you do not look foolish in a Bible study round table study.

I thought you were happy with Mike's suggestion on this at https://community.logos.com/forums/p/112866/748723.aspx#748723

I think the issue Josh is raising here is that he see's it as to technical a solution for the average person in the pew to setup the suggestion Mike has given. He also see things like setting up customer homepages as taking too much detail / technical understanding to set up in the first place. Personally I don't think you need to be a programmer to use Logos but I do take his point that there is a lot stuff that is not all that easy to setup and would turn a lot of people off the software - but as I said I dont' think those people are part of the target customer base - and for me I actually prefer to have control over the software and so ok with doing a bit of setup myself.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/838225#Comment_838225

440 views so far and not one can add something basic detail of something that needs overhaul? hmmm....anyone ever seen a new person try to use Logos? I am NOT a total novice but I feel like one every time I use this powerful Godly product.

Perhaps Disciple is right...it was not aimed for the common Bible user or Bible Study attender.
I think the tools can be better utilized powerfully by many NOT just detailed pastors and language nuancers.

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/838201#Comment_838201

Do you think that anyone at Logos actually visits Bible studies around the country say at a country church with regular non-programming types?

Yes, I do. But what a country church is varies widely across the country. The country church I attended in my youth is set in a town of 125 people (in theory) ... most of whom are retired, disabled or on welfare having moved for the inexpensive living cost. It is surrounded by family owned 3rd, 4th and 5th generation family farms on their second generation of college-educated computer literate farmers and their equally educated wives who supplement the farm income with their jobs as accountants, bankers, insurance brokers, county assessors ... Yes, I know that my daughter-in-law growing up on the other coast experienced farmers as barely making it through high-school, more apt to join the military than to go to college ... While pastors are similar, the Bible studies are quite different ... simply because what people already know is different.

I have every reason to believe that Logos is acutely aware that usability is an issue - it is reflected in items such as the customized home page layouts in Logos Now and the recent foray into speech driven apps - Amazon Echo ... And many of the datasets that some users see no real use for are the driving force powering the simple features we take for granted - like a search on <Person Jesus> returning not just the word Jesus but also references via pronouns, verbs, titles ...

What I suggest you do to influence Logos in the direction you wish to see progress is:

watch and take notes in one of you country church Bible studies
note each and every time that a Bible app could help in the study - preparation, in the study, question answering after ...
for those times where you believe Logos does not meet the need, ask in the forums how others handle it
package those items for which you receive no satisfactory method into a request to Logos, complete with a sample use from the Bible study

On the Verbum side, Faithlife has put significant effort into the high school level market. Show them the market and the precise roadblocks and if they perceive a market, you will get motion ... it make take a couple of years but ...

delete12066188

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/838244#Comment_838244

Hey Josh

I'm still new to Logos (that's why I have soo many postings ;-) ) but I don't understand what you mean. So here is a easy Layout for use in Bible Study. (learnt this in 30 Day Challenge)

Have your Bible, Faithlife Study Bible and Lexham Bible Dictionary and that is it. Link FSB and Bible together. If you have Logos Now. put your Greek and Hebrew Wordboock (and Link it) in the Layout. (anytime you klick on a Word it shows you the meaning) So you have everything you need in one Window. So you can follow all the Discussion in the the Group.

BUT

For a Biblestudy Group you need more than that. This is just for the normal easy Questions everybody in the Room allready know. For the serious Questions you need to study on, and that takes time, you can do it with the Group by sayings OK let us find out what Logos Libary knows about this OR you can say, what every Leader say some Times (even Bible School Teachers) I have to check this and come back next Week.

I my Opinion its not the Software, it's the complexity of the Question.

As a Newby to Logos it just takes me 10 min to work with...but to understand all the possibility you need more than a 15$ Manual. I realy recommend the Learn Logos Cource.

delete12066188

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/838273#Comment_838273

Oh and by the Way. I realy beleive most of the Faith Life Staff visit theire Homechurch at least one in the Week and I can't believe that they don't think, beside all this what a good Christian goes to Church for,from time to time Hey we need this in Logos.

Greg Corbin

I am struggling to understand your issue. Logos is incredibly customizable and is easily used for everything from a basic Bible reading plan to in depth academic research. It is simply a matter of learning to do what you want to do because the software is capable of infinitely more than most users will actually do.

That being said, if all that a person wants to do is the most basic of Bible study activities, then perhaps they would be better served with any of the less expensive Bible software brands out there. Much of the appeal of Logos is its power and customization. It's difficult to dumb that down much further than they already do with such things as the command bar, topic guide, passage guide, exegetical guide, etc.

Morris Proctor's users manuals are also a great investment that logically show a person who to take advantage of Logos' great features.

Coming from an IT/Geek background I'm okay with learning the software. I'm the kind of guy who never reads the manuals until I come across a problem I can't figure out.

I don't think the software is the issue as much as knowing what to do with the results. For example, doing word studies. The question might be one you have run one what would you do with the results. How does that help you to understand the scripture better.

I am with you on the Windows 10 app though.

I agree with JoshRI. But I doubt he'll get very far.

Many of us work/worked in corporateland. Part of my portfolio was a division shepharding software between the field needs, and the corporate IS group. I remember quite emotional discussions, plus the two 'ends' really didn't look at the problem the same way. And software not designed for 'people who don't care' (normal people) is very expensive ... high training costs, high error rates, angry customers, and sick leave a disaster for managers.

The key is 'people who don't care' ... the software is a tool ... their lives are their issue.

Logos doesn't face the imperative of usability. Josh illustrates with a Bible class. One could equally say older pastors, Bible study teachers, and so on. A shrug of the shoulders ... their problem, not ours. We figured it out! They should too! Watch a video for goodness sakes.

I also agree with JoshRI on simplicity. I'd have separate EasyLogos software that 'looks' like Logos, but rarely gets an update. I'd package it by denomination group. Books, preset layout, and a small denomination specific manual by a person from the same denomination. Like MJ or Fr Devin for Catholics.

After I packaged the books, software, and manual (yes, class training manual), then I'd sell them by the 100 count, priced cheap. To Proclaim churches, where's there's support.

But this is Josh's thread ... Bible class, yes. One reason I use Olivetree in Bible class, not Logos, is the simple issue of linking a Bible to a commentary. Olivetree allows a leader (typically your Bible). So if you move around in the commentary or study Bible, the Bible stays put. Very simple issue ... but many more like it.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/838493#Comment_838493

So if you move around in the commentary or study Bible, the Bible stays put. Very simple issue .

This is supported using the "Multiple Resources" capability (available as part of Logos Now).

Not available on mobile platforms but would work on a Windows tablet for example.

but many more like it.

Understood - and having specific examples enables comment as to whether it can currently be done in Logos or not.

I'm not suggesting this is a complete solution to what is being asked for here but wanted to comment on that specific.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/838493#Comment_838493

Generally speaking, I don't use Logos in the class. I use it to prepare for the class. The group in my class is an older group many of whom don't use computers. Some don't even have answering machines. (I'll admit sometimes, I'd like to go back)

As far as moving around in the commentary with the Bible staying put, I think unlinking the two should take care of that.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/838501#Comment_838501

You're right, James. In Logos, you turn OFF functionality. Instead of solve it. It's mindless.

Graham, I'd not dream of your solution for normal people ... Josh's target. No offense.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/838502#Comment_838502

Graham, I'd not dream of your solution for normal people ... Josh's target. No offense.

Intrigued[:)]

You set up Multiple resources using a button on the resource (the parallel lines on the top of the resource) and then the resource on the left is the leader

In what way do you see this as not appropriate?

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/838502#Comment_838502

You're right, James. In Logos, you turn OFF functionality. Instead of solve it. It's mindless.

Graham, I'd not dream of your solution for normal people ... Josh's target. No offense.

I'm don't understand what you are trying to say here. This functionality IS a solution for me. I prefer for my commentary to follow my Bible and vice versa. It's my preference.

Who are the normal people? I don't understand this either. I thought I was a normal people.

I agree with doc who said the target audience is not the one who sits in the pews.

Not everyone will like Logos, as we have seen in the past. But not everyone will like Olive Tree either.

Just my two cents.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/838508#Comment_838508

Well, I guess you'll have to remain intrigued.

Right off the bat, your solution is not in the world of normal people. I'd never have guessed from your display, and I had to read your explanation twice (vs hit the Olivetree button and be done). I'd bet it doesn't interface well ... but who knows? ... even after 7 years, the L4-6 series don't sync safely. As James recommends, I keep them off for commentaries. The apps are even worse. Not to mention, no leaders.

Note also your solution duplicates the hidden link buttons (another 2 no-no's for easy interfaces). Remember, the discussion here isn't Logos' current target group of trained pastors.

You wanted more specifics, but I prefaced my remarks by doubting Josh's success with suggestions. Or anyone else. But for you:

- Grouping like resources in the library for quick selection (remember, normal people, not highly trained, that did tags, collections, etc.)

- A 'back' button that is global to the layout (I've never succeeded using the Logos back button ... yes, history panel, etc .... we're talking Bible class)

- Verse selector smart ... the Logos app has a good one. And yes, a panel if desired.

Plus many more. And for the record, I'd say about a third in my Bible classes use computers/mobiles. Times a'changing.

Actually, the Logos apps should solve EasyLogos functionality ... but don't. There's never anything simple in Faithlife's world of gadgets.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/838524#Comment_838524

Thanks Denise

Phil Gons - in another thread - has spoken about wanting to do something around ease of use. Specifics like these are helpful.

Graham

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/838509#Comment_838509

James. I could have sworn you recommended unlinking commentaries .... that sounds like turning functionality off.

I agree Logos is a constrained market. But I wouldn't want to run a business where 'go somewhere else' is the primary solution for getting new customers.

And no, you're not the group Josh is discussing.

Matthew C Jones

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/838530#Comment_838530

And no, you're not the group Josh is discussing.

How many in that group are willing to drop a thousand dollars on software to help them look good in a Bible study circle?

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/838530#Comment_838530

James. I could have sworn you recommended unlinking commentaries .... that sounds like turning functionality off.

I agree Logos is a constrained market. But I wouldn't want to run a business where 'go somewhere else' is the primary solution for getting new customers.

And no, you're not the group Josh is discussing.

I did. But I don't think it's just a matter of turning on and off functionality. I think it's a matter of how you use it. One person wants the Bible and commentary to follow, another doesn't. To that end, it is a different mindset.

I think every business has a 'go somewhere else' mentality to some extent. Some people don't like Microsoft for whatever reason, some do. Bottom line is you can't please everyone and you shouldn't try. Just do the best you can with your target group. For those on the fringe offer good ways for them to learn. But some won't, can't, or don't want to learn new software. I have them in my life.

I used to own a small business. It didn't matter how hard you tried to please people, some will never be satisfied. It doesn't mean you don't try, but ultimately business is about making money and you could go broke trying to please everyone.

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/838524#Comment_838524

but I prefaced my remarks by doubting Josh's success with suggestions.

I can vouch for the fact that some of my suggestions have been implemented. Now I can't vouch that they weren't already on the list [;)] But concrete suggestion like those you listed do get considered ... and you are well qualified to put together a very good list that would get serious consideration.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/838539#Comment_838539

Matthew, you're right on, about the Cadallac. But Logos competitors somehow do it for far less. And on the other side of the Rockies in Washington, too.

'Looking good' is also interesting. From what I can see, it's almost universal, but most people won't discuss it. It's most obvious when someone struggles with language (here, hispanics), eyesight, or mental limitations. But they very much want to contribute. Skipping them denies them esteem ... which we at least try to avoid (in our classes).

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/838544#Comment_838544

James ... I'd agree, absent Logos dumping a sizable percent of hand-picked employees and families right before Christmas.

I'd hope their issue was 'not enough customers' (vs a great time to execute Bob's book expertise).

MJ ... I appreciate your comments, but I think you do slave away with helping 'normal people' Josh is thinking of ... your suggestions are far more apt.

Matthew C Jones

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/838547#Comment_838547

Matthew, you're right on, about the Cadallac. But Logos competitors somehow do it for far less.

My point is Faithlife doesn't try at all! I don't think they are marketing to Bible study groups.

BriM

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/838193#Comment_838193

it would be really helpful if you could explain exactly what you are looking for and on which platforms

I also find Logos simultaneously too complex, too simple and too slow!

On the desktop, I realise there is a lot of power available, but much of it is hidden behind a complex command-language interface. I don't use complex features often enough to get to know them intuitively. I realise that some might recommend me to take a Proctor course, but really, I don't have the time - I have a full time secular job to do plus my academic studies and assignments to complete. I can't afford to take yet more time to study how to use a tool. Even if I could, I would remember barely a fraction of the information as I wouldn't be using it often. The tool should be intuitive to use, so that documentation and training are rarely necessary.

One frustration is that the linking of panels isn't intelligent. My favourite layout has a panel of Bibles and another of commentaries. These are linked so that if I scroll down one panel, the other follows suit (all resources are in the same link set). This tends to work OK in the simple case, where I'm simply reading down one panel and letting the other follow me. But, usually, I switch between them. I read the UBS, read a bit of commentary, read the NIV and ESV, then a bit more commentary, then a different commentary, then back to the first commentary, etc. The problem is that every time I switch the resource in a panel it jumps back to the start of the section that refers to the other pane - even if I'm already part way through reading the text in a panel. I can understand why it's doing this, but find it very inconvenient and it could do better by realising that I'm already positioned at a place in a resource that corresponds to the linked resource in the other pane.

A similar issue for me is if I click on a commentary set that doesn't have a volume for the book open in my bibles pane. It then opens any volume (I think it's the last one I used) in the commentary set and pulls the bible along with it - losing my place and making me have to navigate back to exactly where I was in the bible pane before continuing. I have many commentary sets open and can't possibly remember which of them has the book I'm looking at, so this proves a big time waster for me. Surely, it ought to be easy to show a "No corresponding resource" message in these circumstances, rather than doing a link I'm certain not to want. For some reason that I totally don't understand, the back button doesn't do anything rational in these circumstances. I could put up with the inadvertant jump if "back" would take me back to where I was, but no - it goes off somewhere mysterious.

On the tablet (Android and IOS), I find the apps are too simple to do what I want. On the desktop, I have two main panels open, one containing bibles and the other commentaries, all of them linked and with tabs to flick between them. I like to be able to move between bibles and commentaries easily. I can't do that anything like as conveniently on the tablets - at best, I can get two panes linked, but there are no tabs - and so I have to go through a laborious process of choosing a translation and opening it to switch between resources. Also, a key omission (or one that I can't find) is the ability to see the morphology and gloss by hovering over words in Greek NTs.

Yet, despite the lack of functionality, it takes a long time to do anything with the apps. In a bible study group it takes me significantly longer to find something than other members who have software costing less than one percent of what I've invested in Logos.

For me, getting these basics addressed is way more important than adding new whizzy functionality. Seriously: the only difference I'm certain of between Logos 4, 5 and 6 is that the version 4 logo was blue on white, version 5 was white on blue and 6 had rounded edges. I know there is new functionality in there and that I've paid a lot for it. But I couldn't tell anyone what it is.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/838564#Comment_838564

I also find Logos simultaneously too complex, too simple and too slow!

Thanks for the detailed response - this is the sort of information I expect Faithlife will find useful.

Also, a key omission (or one that I can't find) is the ability to see the morphology and gloss by hovering over words in Greek NTs.

On this specific - if you "long press" (press and hold) on a word you will get a popup menu. Choosing Lookup should give you what you want (assuming you are online).

Simon’s Brother

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/838539#Comment_838539

And no, you're not the group Josh is discussing.

How many in that group are willing to drop a thousand dollars on software to help them look good in a Bible study circle?

For me I honestly have never seen Logos as something to be generalily used during a bible study discussion group, except for accessing a bible and study bible, like you would if you had your print bible / study bible in hand, and taking the odd note. Any depth use of Logos i have been done in preparation for the study or as a follow up after the study. I haven't thought during a weekly bible discussion when it's my opportunity turn to talk, I havent said "Let me just 'Logos' that and I'll share my gleanings."

So to Matthew's point I don't see a whole lot of people dropping a bundle of cash to purchase both Logos and a device - laptop or tablet - which they can bring to a weekly bible discussion group and and also saying "Let me 'Logos' that before I contribute to the discussion and FWIW even though it would be nice to get it right I've never seen anyone being chipped for getting the pronunciation of one of those people or place names wrong.

Simon’s Brother

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/838564#Comment_838564

Seriously: the only difference I'm certain of between Logos 4, 5 and 6 is that the version 4 logo was blue on white, version 5 was white on blue and 6 had rounded edges. I know there is new functionality in there and that I've paid a lot for it. But I couldn't tell anyone what it is.

A very accurate description. [Y]