Apostolic Fathers Interlinear?

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Ron Barry | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Apr 30 2010 11:39 AM

I guess this one just flies over my head - I can understand wanting to read the Bible in the original languages, especially if you are a verbal plenary type like me...where every jot and tittle may mean something special. What is the draw to an interlinear for the Early Church Fathers? I know there is loss in translation, but these are just men and is it vital that their observations be studied in the original languages? Just sayin'

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Alan Macgregor | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Apr 30 2010 12:08 PM

Ron

I understand what you mean. What is useful about studying the way the Early Fathers used Greek is simply that their use and understanding of language in its contexts may help us grasp more clearly how the Greek New Testament was understood and applied by those who were much, much closer to the time of the original writers than we are. The early Fathers were not many generations removed from the New Testament writers (especially John).

I already have the early writers in both Greek and English, and to be perfectly honest I don't really need the interlinear, but for people whose Greek is a bit rusty, the interlinear will help them understand what is going on in the Greek text far better than an English translation, where the original is hidden and you have no access to why certain translation choices were made.

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Rick Brannan (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Apr 30 2010 3:17 PM

Hi Ron

Ron Barry:

I guess this one just flies over my head - I can understand wanting to read the Bible in the original languages, especially if you are a verbal plenary type like me...where every jot and tittle may mean something special. What is the draw to an interlinear for the Early Church Fathers? I know there is loss in translation, but these are just men and is it vital that their observations be studied in the original languages? Just sayin'

Yes, I'd agree, those who are responsible for the writings we call the "Apostolic Fathers" are "just men". That said, they are much closer historically to the events of the New Testament and one can gain great insight into the culture and thinking of the NT by reading other writings of the general era.

Reading them in the same language as the NT will increase one's ability to read the Greek NT. I'd say that in a way similar to how one can gain insight into the language of the KJV by reading and understanding Shakespeare, so one can gain insight into the language of the Greek NT by reading the Apostolic Fathers.

Not to mention all the lexicons and grammars (and commentaries) that refer to the writings of the Apostolic Fathers while they discuss the NT (and OT, for that matter). For those whose Greek is being stretched already, looking at the Greek of non-NT works can be both challenging and intimidating (it was for me). I'm hoping the interlinear can help all sorts of folks look to these other writings, when cited, to help understand the words and grammar of the NT even better.

http://www.logos.com/products/prepub/details/6091 for the pre-pub page with more information.

 

Rick Brannan
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Posts 352
Mike & Rachel Aubrey | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, May 1 2010 10:22 AM

Rick Brannan:
Yes, I'd agree, those who are responsible for the writings we call the "Apostolic Fathers" are "just men". That said, they are much closer historically to the events of the New Testament and one can gain great insight into the culture and thinking of the NT by reading other writings of the general era.

If I may build on these words...

A few of these writers are also in geographical proximity to where Paul himself would have preached an taught. Combine with their temporal proximity to the NT, they have the potential on occasion for us to see how the church understood the teaching an writing of people like Paul within a generation or two after Paul's death. For that reason they AF also have the potential to shed light on the interpretation of the New Testament as well. Take for example 1 Clement, written in Rome (where Paul live and preached for some time) to Corinth (where Paul lived an preached for some time). Now compare Ephesians 5 with 1 Clement 38. This is the closest we can get to seeing how the early church understood "mutual submission."

After that go take a look at this little book: http://www.logos.com/ebooks/details/NTAPOSTFATHRS -- though if your Greek isn't super good, you may want to pick up an Apostolic Father's Interlinear... Wink

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, May 1 2010 3:15 PM

Ron Barry:
I know there is loss in translation, but these are just men and is it vital that their observations be studied in the original languages?

Next thing I know people will question why I'd read Beowulf in Old English when I can read it in Newari (with thanks to a college friend)Big Smile Seriously, I have qualms about interlinears as a "cheat sheet" to allow you to avoid really learning a language. But if you are past a rank beginner but not yet fluent, they certainly decrease the frustration and increase speed in a language. And its rare for the translation to be better than the original.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 84
Ron Barry | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, May 2 2010 8:48 AM

Thanks for your responses. I can definitely see the value as it gives greater clarity to the NT text and its understanding by people closer to the time the originals were written. I guess anything that helps in our pursuit of understanding what God has to say to us should be considered valuable. I repent.

Posts 248
Patrick Rietveld | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 31 2011 1:32 AM

Denise Barnhart:
Logos also has the Apostolic Fathers interlinears by Lake, Holmes and Lightfoot

So what is the difference between these 3 interlinears and the forthcoming one? The pre-pub info says that there are links to Louw Nida. Does this mean there are no links to resources like BDAG, EDNT, WBC, etc?

Posts 95
Rick Brannan | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 31 2011 5:41 AM

Patrick Rietveld:

Denise Barnhart:
Logos also has the Apostolic Fathers interlinears by Lake, Holmes and Lightfoot

So what is the difference between these 3 interlinears and the forthcoming one? The pre-pub info says that there are links to Louw Nida. Does this mean there are no links to resources like BDAG, EDNT, WBC, etc?

Actually, Logos does not have interlinears by Lake, Holmes and Lightfoot. There are Greek texts (one resource) with English translations (another resource) for each of Lake, Lightfoot and Holmes.

We have a reverse interlinear of Lake's edition of the Apostolic Fathers that is available in some packages (Platinum KF? I don't remember exactly). This is a reverse interlinear, with the English text of Lake as the top line, and the Greek aligned underneath it.

To my knowledge (and I'm happy to be proven wrong) there is no interlinear edition of the Apostolic Fathers -- an edition where the Greek is the top line, with English translations below. There is certainly no "Lexham style" interlinear, with Lexical Value glosses and English translation glosses for each word. And this is the first time I know of Louw-Nida annotation (Louw-Nida domain-article annotation) has been given to each instance of each Greek word in a corpus that is not the NT (like the Lexham Greek-English Interlinear New Testaments apply LN: http://www.logos.com/product/8569/lexham-greek-english-interlinear-new-testament-collection ).

The Greek text (that of Lake) is fully morphologically analyzed, with lemmas and morphology, so you can look up any Greek word in any lexicon (e.g. BDAG). If a work cites the Apostolic Fathers (e.g. WBC, EDNT, ICC, Anchor-Yale, TDNT, etc.)  you can get to the interlinear through the reference.

Think: How does my Lexham NT Greek Interlinear work? This edition of the Apostolic Fathers Interlinear (http://bit.ly/ApFthInt) works the same way.

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Posts 846
Eric Weiss | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 31 2011 6:09 AM

Denise Barnhart:

Logos also has the Apostolic Fathers interlinears by Lake, Holmes and Lightfoot

The current offering isn't an interlinear: http://www.logos.com/product/3845/the-apostolic-fathers-in-english-and-greek-with-morphology

One can set it up as a diglot in two side-by-side-and-scrolling windows, or even up to a hexapla, since there are 3 Greek texts and 3 English texts, but even though the Greek is morphologically tagged, it's not able to be arranged/displayed interlinearly so as to have a one-to-one correspondence between the Greek text and and English gloss. Though I know Greek well enough that a diglot would be sufficient for me for much of the AFs, I ordered this Interlinear because it will make my reading and study of the AFs easier.

 

 

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Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 31 2011 7:32 AM

Rick .... are you sure you don't want to back the truck up? In the wiki, I listed out all the various interlinears (including the apostolic fathers): http://wiki.logos.com/Resource$3a_Apostolic_Fathers_–_Greek_Texts  Maybe you're using the word differently? The present Logos offerings don't have the english glosses, and there's 3 separate resources which you can purchase separately (i.e. affordably). I've even run big chunks of them through my pattern software, comparing the sequences to NT, judaic, and LXX sequences to see the differences. That said, I'm in high anticipation of your new one.

"I didn't know God made honky tonk angels."

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Todd Phillips | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 31 2011 8:17 AM

Denise Barnhart:
Maybe you're using the word differently? The present Logos offerings don't have the english glosses, and there's 3 separate resources which you can purchase separately (i.e. affordably).

I think most people on this thread are equating "interlinear" to "Greek/English interlinear" (i.e., there is a translation or gloss line to be found). I know I do unless it's specifically stated otherwise.

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Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 31 2011 8:34 AM

Hmm ... let me see ... look to the left under the small image ... yep ... it's a 'star'. How am I not surprised.

Here's my question, Todd. Why was that so important to you? I'm talking about the put-down which this forum specializes in so much. You could argue, that you're simply clarifying for other viewers and that's certainly true. But we both know interlinears simply describe the format of how data is displayed. Interlinears are one aspect of Logos that I personally highly appreciate in comparison to Logos' competitors. That's why I am periodically critical of Logos marketing department, since they don't highlight all the advantages that many of Logos resources provide.

Whether an interlinear includes another language is certainly important, though George would probably applaud the absence of glosses. Yesterday in church I asked the pastor's wife if she had a Japanese interlinear ... my spouse had an english Bible in one hand, and a Japanese in the other.

But again, as I expressed in another thread yesterday, my impression is that the main function of 'star' members is to keep the fires burning. In this case, Rick invited comment ... I answered, since I think Logos.com could be more clear. And the 'star' forum member saw a great opportunity.

"I didn't know God made honky tonk angels."

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Todd Phillips | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 31 2011 9:40 AM

Denise Barnhart:
But again, as I expressed in another thread yesterday, my impression is that the main function of 'star' members is to keep the fires burning. In this case, Rick invited comment ... I answered, since I think Logos.com could be more clear. And the 'star' forum member saw a great opportunity.

Denise, please forgive me for answering in Rick's stead. I'm sorry if it came across as a put down-- I was just hoping to clarify what I thought the disconnect was. If I hadn't had a star under my name, would it have come across differently?  If so, maybe I'll ask to have it removed.

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Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 31 2011 10:33 AM

Todd ... I'm writing this smilingly (and I appreciate your reply). But Dave Hooton is the one who should loose his 'star'. He never seems to get emotional, his answers are to the point, and when you see a 'Hooton', you know it's best to read it (in addition to the Hootens of course ... that's you Bill). The problem with a 'star' is that there's some sort of expectation concerning the high road, at least for me. My apologies, if I over-interpreted.

"I didn't know God made honky tonk angels."

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Rick Brannan (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 31 2011 10:44 AM

Denise Barnhart:
Rick .... are you sure you don't want to back the truck up? In the wiki, I listed out all the various interlinears (including the apostolic fathers): http://wiki.logos.com/Resource$3a_Apostolic_Fathers_–_Greek_Texts  Maybe you're using the word differently? The present Logos offerings don't have the english glosses, and there's 3 separate resources which you can purchase separately (i.e. affordably). I've even run big chunks of them through my pattern software, comparing the sequences to NT, judaic, and LXX sequences to see the differences. That said, I'm in high anticipation of your new one.

Hi Denise.

Thanks; I'm using "interlinear" equating with the inclusion of an English gloss; you're using it (probably) more properly since those texts do use the Logos interlinear functionality to display morph and lemma information under the respective Greek word.

Apologies for my confusion on how the term was being used. And thanks for your anticipation of my work, I hope it lives up to expectations.

Rick Brannan
Data Wrangler, Faithlife
My books in print

Posts 10533
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 13 2011 4:46 PM

Woo Hoo!!!

It's out of the barn and onto the racetrack!

"I didn't know God made honky tonk angels."

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