Thinking about PBB content and Stand-alone or Cloud-Sync ...

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Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, May 1 2010 10:19 AM | Locked

Bob Pritchett:
his is just "the state of the thinking"....

I like the way you think! Yes

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Dudley C Rose | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, May 1 2010 10:36 AM | Locked

Bob Pritchett:

This is just "the state of the thinking"....

-- Bob

Bob, this all sounds wonderful.  I gather you are still working out the business model as it pertains to compiling books.  Any insight you could provide here would be interesting and welcome.  Also, In Logos 3 I had some very good luck turning websites (with permission) into PBs that made them nicely integrated into Logos.  Clearly, you are planning for even better integration, which is great news.  Ii would great if the flexibility to do projects such as the one I just described were part of the new version.

Dudley

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Joe K | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 3 2010 7:30 AM | Locked

Bob Pritchett:
PBB for Logos 4 isn't coded yet... so things are still flexible.

Hello Bob. 

Good info and thanks for sharing it.  A few years ago my hard disk crashed and i lost many things, including some sources for PB's.  I have most of the HTML source files, but i have found that i am missing some.  I am wondering if you would consider using the L3 created PB as input to your compiler process?   

Also, can we assume if our source files worked correctly in L3 that they will work in L4 as is? 

God bless!

Joe K

Posts 24
Joe K | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 3 2010 7:50 AM | Locked

Bob,

One more thing i just thought of, that i asked for in L3, and would like to see in L4... to be able to turn a note file into a PBB. 

Thanks again!

Joe K

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Robert Pavich | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 3 2010 8:19 AM | Locked

wow...that sounds like PBB's are going to be a great value! Like PBB's on steroids!

Robert Pavich

For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 3 2010 9:28 AM | Locked

Bob Pritchett:
A) No more second-class citizens. PBB will use the same internal file format as books we distribute, so highlighting and other features "just work."

 

Bob,
Thank you for the details. It is what you don't say that piques my curiosity.
For the record: Will PBBs be FREE in Logos 4 or will an annual license be required to access them?

You have never said PBBs would be free in Logos 4 but every poster in this thread is assuming that will be the case. If their assumption is correct, how can Logos donate all the time to rework the PBBs without hope of financial recouperation? You know many of the 900+ PBBs out there are rough around the edges. Others are titles you have already produced in Logos 4 format (Calvin.) It would be impossible to get Barnes' Notes out of Pre-Pub if you are going to make it freely available as a full featured "first class citizen."

I don't want to throw cold water on all the excitement but economic reality says it's an unsustainable business model. If Logos will function as a license clearing house, there will be ongoing costs.

I just wanted to hear an official statement of what our expectations should be.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 3 2010 10:13 AM | Locked

Matthew C Jones:
You have never said PBBs would be free in Logos 4 but every poster in this thread is assuming that will be the case. If their assumption is correct, how can Logos donate all the time to rework the PBBs without hope of financial recouperation?

As a poster, I need to say you don't quite represent correctly my understanding. I expect that the PBB compiler will be free. I do not expect (or want) Logos to convert the PBB's I created into the new format. I want the control for my own creations.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 24
Joe K | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 3 2010 11:30 AM | Locked

Matthew C Jones:
I don't want to throw cold water on all the excitement but economic reality says it's an unsustainable business model. If Logos will function as a license clearing house, there will be ongoing costs.

Maybe Logos should have a flat charge per PBB in order to download.  Just don't charge the creator Wink

Joe K

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 3 2010 11:44 AM | Locked

MJ. Smith:
I expect that the PBB compiler will be free. I do not expect (or want) Logos to convert the PBB's I created into the new format.

 

I think Bob made it very clear the compiling would be done by Logos, on Logos servers, distributed from Logos servers and synched back to Logos servers.

 

The PBB store will not be FREE. At least that is what I maintain is to be reasonably expected. I am just trying to temper the excitement with a dose of reality.

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Dudley C Rose | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 3 2010 11:54 AM | Locked

Matthew C Jones:

every poster in this thread is assuming that

Actually, my question about the business model was exactly to the point that I didn't t expect compiling even our own books to be free.  I'd love that, though.

Dudley

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 3 2010 11:58 AM | Locked

Joe K:
Maybe Logos should have a flat charge per PBB in order to download.  Just don't charge the creator Wink

At the reasonable $.99 per download, I would have to spend $990+ to move my PBB collection into Logos 4.

And you can count on any public domain stuff NOT being offered if a Logos alternative has been produced. Why should Logos drop Calvin's Commentaries (46 vols.) http://www.logos.com/products/details/5161 for $399 and allow the download of PBB for a dollar each?

I have a great suggestion for everyone who hates synching with the cloud, misses their notes and PBB library: Just keep using Logos Version 3!

I have got the best of both worlds. (Logos 3 & 4)

 

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JimTowler | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 3 2010 12:24 PM | Locked

Matthew C Jones:
I have a great suggestion for everyone who hates synching with the cloud, misses their notes and PBB library: Just keep using Logos Version 3!

Well, as I started this Thread, I "own" this little part of the Internet, so its my turn. Smile

I like that Bob popped up and shared some ideas. He also said its not yet all locked down, so they are still working out the details. As for a possible PD store, it seemed to me that it was something he would like to do, if only he could solve the many issues with it. And of course, I'm guessing there.

As for any pricing or license model, for now, I'm happy to wait and see what happens next.

As for anyone hating online sync, I've seen little or none of that from anyone. Maybe some don't want it, or the option to turn it off. Not so sure anyone hates it.

[ The issues with "selling" PBB-created content is many. Maybe the biggest relates to Copyright, and if Logos "sells" them, maybe they then become the Publisher, and some of those Copyright issues land on them if one of us gets it wrong. E.G. We use NIV or ESV or whatever in our document, but have not obtained Commercial rights to do so, for a work that is to be sold (even if only for 99 cents). ]

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 3 2010 12:36 PM | Locked

Matthew C Jones:
I think Bob made it very clear the compiling would be done by Logos, on Logos servers, distributed from Logos servers and synched back to Logos servers.

Matthew C Jones:
The PBB store will not be FREE. At least that is what I maintain is to be reasonably expected. I am just trying to temper the excitement with a dose of reality.

We read Bob's post quite differently. To me, that fact that the compilation occurs on Logos servers says nothing about who initiates that compilation and when. I hope (and expect) that is at the creators whim.

The fact that Logos is considering allowing creators to market their PBB's rather than free distribution says nothing about what the creators of the PBB's will choose to do. To charge or not to charge that is the question - the question for the creator. Note what Bob says in his point D - there will be an option to share.

I suspect that the thinking behind a possible PBB store is that in the new environment, one can do much more to the text to improve its usefulness in Logos. Some people need to be compensated for their time to justify the effort.

 

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 3 2010 12:45 PM | Locked

Matthew C Jones:
And you can count on any public domain stuff NOT being offered if a Logos alternative has been produced.

Hasn't this always been true - one is motivated to create a PBB only if you don't have it and can't get it. What is or is not available in PBB's depends specifically on what people like myself chose to do. What we chose to do is dependent upon what Logos has already done, what our personal interests are, the ease of using the new product, our perception of the reception of the material, and the time we wish to expend on the effort.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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DominicM | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 3 2010 12:49 PM | Locked

I have a few concerns, but until Bob draws the line in the sand, its all speculation...

Never Deprive Anyone of Hope.. It Might Be ALL They Have

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 3 2010 12:52 PM | Locked

Jim Towler:
Maybe the biggest relates to Copyright, and if Logos "sells" them, maybe they then become the Publisher, and some of those Copyright issues land on them if one of us gets it wrong

I'm not a lawyer but I suspect that the PBB creator would be liable. One reason that I don't want Logos to convert any of my files automatically, there are some that I need to reconsider the copyright status of - I had permission to convert to Logos but not to charge anything. Others I could use under certain academic exclusions which I need to be certain I still fall within.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 3 2010 1:14 PM | Locked

Jim Towler:
Well, as I started this Thread, I "own" this little part of the Internet,

Just because you started a thread doesn't give you control over who posts, or a corner on what the truth is. My posts are related to PBBs synching with the cloud, etc...

I do need to correct my statement "All posters" to read "some posters."  Upon carefully reading the whole thread again, I find at least four people who expect to pay something to have PBB access in Version 4. If Bob can deliver PBBs to Logos 4, even for a modest per-title fee, I will be happy. If he can then make them available on iPad I will be even happier.

Many times I have posted unpopular things that were borne out as completely factual:
1) When everyone was trashing a certain Logos employee named "Dan", I suggested they might ought to be more respectful
2) When people kept promoting off-site links to purchase from third parties, I said it was bad manners. (Logos agreed)
3) I warned if people didn't practice better self-government in posting, we would end up with forum rules (we did)
4) I warned if we didn't follow forum rules we would get a moderator (we did, although s/he is working undercover Cool )

I think it is unreasonable to expect Logos Version 4 to be everything Version 3 was and fully functional on mobile devices without heavily taxing the resources of the company. But I am a relic of the past: I quit programming about the time you started. So aside from living the history you read about, I really don't have much to offer.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 3 2010 1:24 PM | Locked

Matthew C Jones:
I think it is unreasonable to expect Logos Version 4 to be everything Version 3 was and fully functional on mobile devices without heavily taxing the resources of the company. But I am a relic of the past:

I, too, am a relic of the past in terms of computers. My reasoning for assuming that the PBB function would be integrated was Bob P.'s statements that they are moving away from the add-in concept. If the PBB generation is strictly on their servers, they could charge a fee and remain true to their basic design principles. They could also limit it to specific base levels, an approach that they have used with other features. We'll have to wait and see  - then you can update your win/loss statistics.Smile

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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JimTowler | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 3 2010 1:36 PM | Locked

Matthew C Jones:
Just because you started a thread doesn't give you control over who posts, or a corner on what the truth is.

Matthew, You will see I wrote "own" in quotes, and a smile on the end of the line. I was not claiming to control who could speak. I was only claiming it was my turn to speak next. Not at all like you suggest in the line above.

Unless you programmed with paper tape or punchcards, your suggestion on when I began programming make be off by some years, but its not important here. I will leave it at that, and say little more.

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 3 2010 1:37 PM | Locked

MJ. Smith:
one is motivated to create a PBB only if you don't have it and can't get it. What is or is not available in PBB's depends specifically on what people like myself chose to do.

Yes, generally speaking. But we already had Calvin's commentaries in PBB before Logos did them in Version 4. 

Will Logos make any public domain PBBs available when they could produce their own in-house version for a better profit? For example: Barnes' Notes or the Stone-Campbell works that Calvin Habig did are all public domain titles that have a profitable marketability. I doubt Logos would make just any titles available in PBB format..

I already have most every Puritan writer in Pre-Pub in PDF format. (80 CDs full) It would not be hard to PBB all that but I doubt Logos would compile any of it. Same with the Stone-Campbell material. (Millineal Harbinger, The Christian Baptist,  Works of Lard, Franklin, etc.)

So there isn't much need for PBB in Logos 4 outside of a "vanity press" function. Everybody wants to write a book and Logos is king of copyrighted Bible related ebooks. I doubt any PBBs come out in Logos 4 without close scrutiny for copyright infringement or due consideration to how it's publication will impact future Logos publication opportunities. (That is why the Puritan works show up in Pre-Pub and not Community Pricing.. There is a bigger profit to be made.)

I still think you won't get the 900+ Version 3 PBBs in Logos 4.

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