Thinking about PBB content and Stand-alone or Cloud-Sync ...
I hope this thread can keep a useful focus, but I was thinking ...
For Notes, Prayer Lists, Highlighting etc, the content is very small. Each is a few KB I guess. And they are stored in local database files and synced to the cloud at Logos (Amazon) etc.
For PBBs, I'm guessing some people won't have a few 10's of them, but maybe hundreds, and each could be 100 KB, or a meg or two, if its a significant PD work someone has scanned or converted from PDF etc.
If they all sync to the cloud too, what will it do for sync times, delays, bandwidth charges ???
Will I not be able to sync a new 3 KB Note from my iPhone until after the 17 MBs of new PBBs I did at home last night finishes sycning?
Will I be able to keep my 500 PBBs on my PC at home, but only sync a small selection to my iPhone/iPad? Maybe my data plan won't support moving multiple 10's of megs in sync traffic per month?
I live in New Zealand. Broadband charges are very high, but GSM data plans cost the moon. Moving more than a few megs per month becomes a problem.
For me, the solution is to be able to be selective for user content. A tick-box in the corner, to "Sync to Cloud" or not, for a given item.
I guess I'm asking Logos to consider users and Countries that don't have as fast and affordable data traffic plans as the US.
I wish the focus here to be about sync-delays and data traffic charges. Copyright and privacy issues are another story, but maybe the same tick-box can address both matters.
I do look forward to whatever additional capability the PBB features will bring to the party. I raise this now, so maybe its not too late to consider this aspect before the PBB designs and scoping is completed.
(I don't currently have an iPhone, iPad, Netbook, Slate PC yet, but for me, data charges will be a critical aspect to it being practical or not.)
Comments
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Jim,
we are waiting for Logos to release the specs,
I wouldn't count on your PBB being able to be on the iphone/ipad, but it would be nice..
I will be wanting my PBB local only.. dont want them synced unless I choose to share them
Never Deprive Anyone of Hope.. It Might Be ALL They Have
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I am very interested in how PBBs work in L4. I Have 122 of them waiting to see L4 in native format!
While others have very correctly stated some of the technical challenges, I for one hope Logos finds a way that they can truly be native in all ways, including syncing. One thing I really like about the cloud is that I can install Logos on a new machine and I don't have to do much of anything to have everything there - settings, resources, etc.! That is VERY nice. I realize that may not be practical, but I can hope...
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Logos has indicated they will have the PBBs be in the native book format. I've read other's assert that the PBBs will be managed through some "marketplace" which means we will download them from Logos like purchases (I haven't read this from a Logos employee but from people I would trust have been told this by Logos). So I would assume that the books would come down in a one-time download and then only the notes etc attached to the book will do any syncing.
Prov. 15:23
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Dominick Sela said:
One thing I really like about the cloud is that I can install Logos on a new machine and I don't have to do much of anything to have everything there
Dominick,
Yes - I can see the great apeal of that. I too tend to like things that "just works". Saying that, I also like where I can turn stuff off, or be selective. I was the kid that took stuff apart and wanted to re-make it just a little different to how it had been made or designed.
Assuming PBB-created items are in the cloud, and not just local, my focus here is on transfer delays, and data-charges for wireless devices.
If I can sync at home over wi-fi or USB etc, with my home PC, I see that working OK. If its over-the-air on a GSM data plan, I see big problems for Countrys where there is no service, or its unaffordable to some customers.
Taking Bob's comments about the future, (he said something like "... everything stored in the Cloud ...") at face value, I would expect PBB-created content will not be stand-alone, but cloud/sync related. Even if "Cloud" is not in the first release of it into Logos4.
I look forward to what it will do, and how we can use it. I hope its form is one I can afford.
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Kevin Becker said:
I've read other's assert that the PBBs will be managed through some "marketplace" which means we will download them from Logos like purchases
If there will be a Logos distribution centre from where will they source the PBB's? And will they convert them once sourced? Thereafter I should be able to go to a PBB Product page and choose my downloads. But what if my current ones are not there? I guess I would be dependent on the creators re-doing their contributions and "uploading" (sync'ing!?) them to Logos because I only have a read licence.
Another scenario is that Logos will provide a download tool and a conversion tool for use on public distribution servers like Still Truth. PBB creators can continue to upload to such servers as well as sync to Logos.
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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Dave Hooton said:
I guess I would be dependent on the creators re-doing their contributions and "uploading" (sync'ing!?) them to Logos because I only have a read licence.
I hope that the creators retain control rather than having a mass conversion. There are items I would handle differently if the new PBB behaves as expected.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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If I created some PBB course content for a class, I might well want to keep copyright in that work, and only issue copies to enrolled and paid-up students.
I hope the system will allow for that kind of option.
I would hate if ALL PBB-created content went into a totaly public free-for-all. But I have seen nothing official that suggests Logos intends to do it that way.
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Jim Towler said:
I would hate if ALL PBB-created content went into a totaly public free-for-all.
You would have control of PBB's you create, especially if you got a non-distributable (private) licence.
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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If PBB's are actually made public I'll cancel my subscription and not place or update them to L4.
Reason: I have e-books that I have a copyright to have a personal copy of that cannot be shared.
I have them in L3 and do not have this issue- and since my license is for "personal use" I can't see Logos making my personal doc's public.
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Whyndell Grizzard said:
If PBB's are actually made public I'll cancel my subscription and not place or update them to L4.
I'm certain that PBB's will not automatically be made public and available. For one thing, that would make no sense while one was developing them. Bob P. has spoken of parameters on shared documents - limited sharing, sharing with or without update capability etc.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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DominicM said:
I wouldn't count on your PBB being able to be on the iphone/ipad, but it would be nice..
If they are in native Logos format I see no reason that they wouldn't be.
DominicM said:I will be wanting my PBB local only.. dont want them synced unless I choose to share them
Syncing and shared are independent attributes. As Logos provides for our backup and recovery I would expect them to be synced. I would not expect them to be shared. I.E. I would expect them to behave like any other user generated resource.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Dave Hooton said:
You would have control of PBB's you create, especially if you got a non-distributable (private) licence.
Do you know something I don't? Of course, you do - lot's of stuff. [:D] However, limiting it to the Logos 4 PBB implementation are you assuming that one purchases a license? I was assuming it would be folded into the main product like other functions that were L3 add-ins.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:
However, limiting it to the Logos 4 PBB implementation are you assuming that one purchases a license? I was assuming it would be folded into the main product like other functions that were L3 add-ins.
I was talking about a licence to create PBB's (L3 model). I assume that a read-only licence would be available also as per L3.
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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Actually we don't know anything about the PBB in Logos 4, except the fact that the result resource should be a native Logos 4 format. All the rest is just a speculation. I am anxious to hear from Logos concerning that. May be just a bit of information so that we can plan our PBBs better.
Bohuslav
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PBB for Logos 4 isn't coded yet... so things are still flexible.
The basic idea is:
A) No more second-class citizens. PBB will use the same internal file format as books we distribute, so highlighting and other features "just work."
Compiling will probably be done on the server. (Because we're making PBB books first-class citizens, they need to go through the primary metadata and license databases, so we can sync them to your multiple devices, let your read your PBB's on your iPhone, etc.)C) Your content defaults to private, just like your notes and other information.
D) You'll have the option to share your books with "groups" of other people. (And your notes, highlights, etc.) You'll have per-file control of exactly what you share and who you share it with.
E) We're considering a PBB store, like the App Stores for mobile phones, where you could choose to sell PBB's for which you owned the copyright, with Logos handling the credit card transactions, downloading, etc.
This is just "the state of the thinking"....
-- Bob
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Bob Pritchett said:
This is just "the state of the thinking"....
Thanks Bob,
As per my first post at the top here, my hope was to keep it focused, which it was in danger of losing as the posts continued. Many guesses as we continued to interact with no guide.
I like the ideas above, but I expect some would welcome an option to only keep it in their own PC, if it was only ever for personal use. Clearly, if it was going to get sent out, a full server-grade processing makes sense, and its going "somewhat" public anyway, so privacy issues fall away in that case I think.
I really love that a PBB will be a 1st class resource. I think in those ways, maybe Notes need not be as powerfull and rich as some are seeking. Others may differ on that.
Mostly, I want to thank you for considering our comments and letting us better understand how you see the product-family position and hints at the future.
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Bob Pritchett said:
PBB for Logos 4 isn't coded yet... so things are still flexible.
The basic idea is:
A) No more second-class citizens. PBB will use the same internal file format as books we distribute, so highlighting and other features "just work."
Compiling will probably be done on the server. (Because we're making PBB books first-class citizens, they need to go through the primary metadata and license databases, so we can sync them to your multiple devices, let your read your PBB's on your iPhone, etc.)C) Your content defaults to private, just like your notes and other information.
D) You'll have the option to share your books with "groups" of other people. (And your notes, highlights, etc.) You'll have per-file control of exactly what you share and who you share it with.
E) We're considering a PBB store, like the App Stores for mobile phones, where you could choose to sell PBB's for which you owned the copyright, with Logos handling the credit card transactions, downloading, etc.
This is just "the state of the thinking"....
-- Bob
Thank you Bob so much for all the information. You provided much more I dared to expect :-). I like very much your approach to the matter. I can't wait for it. However with all the hints you gave us I am starting to doubt whether you will be able to release it by the end of June (as we understood the promise). Never mind. The quality of the result is what matters the most. Thanks again for that.
Bohuslav
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Thanks Bob- this relieves some concerns for my copyrighted PBB's.
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Bob Pritchett said:
This is just "the state of the thinking"....
-- Bob
Bob, this all sounds wonderful. I gather you are still working out the business model as it pertains to compiling books. Any insight you could provide here would be interesting and welcome. Also, In Logos 3 I had some very good luck turning websites (with permission) into PBs that made them nicely integrated into Logos. Clearly, you are planning for even better integration, which is great news. Ii would great if the flexibility to do projects such as the one I just described were part of the new version.
Dudley
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Bob Pritchett said:
PBB for Logos 4 isn't coded yet... so things are still flexible.
Hello Bob.
Good info and thanks for sharing it. A few years ago my hard disk crashed and i lost many things, including some sources for PB's. I have most of the HTML source files, but i have found that i am missing some. I am wondering if you would consider using the L3 created PB as input to your compiler process?
Also, can we assume if our source files worked correctly in L3 that they will work in L4 as is?
God bless!
Joe K
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Bob,
One more thing i just thought of, that i asked for in L3, and would like to see in L4... to be able to turn a note file into a PBB.
Thanks again!
Joe K
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wow...that sounds like PBB's are going to be a great value! Like PBB's on steroids!
Robert Pavich
For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__
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Bob Pritchett said:
A) No more second-class citizens. PBB will use the same internal file format as books we distribute, so highlighting and other features "just work."
Bob,
Thank you for the details. It is what you don't say that piques my curiosity.
For the record: Will PBBs be FREE in Logos 4 or will an annual license be required to access them?You have never said PBBs would be free in Logos 4 but every poster in this thread is assuming that will be the case. If their assumption is correct, how can Logos donate all the time to rework the PBBs without hope of financial recouperation? You know many of the 900+ PBBs out there are rough around the edges. Others are titles you have already produced in Logos 4 format (Calvin.) It would be impossible to get Barnes' Notes out of Pre-Pub if you are going to make it freely available as a full featured "first class citizen."
I don't want to throw cold water on all the excitement but economic reality says it's an unsustainable business model. If Logos will function as a license clearing house, there will be ongoing costs.
I just wanted to hear an official statement of what our expectations should be.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Matthew C Jones said:
You have never said PBBs would be free in Logos 4 but every poster in this thread is assuming that will be the case. If their assumption is correct, how can Logos donate all the time to rework the PBBs without hope of financial recouperation?
As a poster, I need to say you don't quite represent correctly my understanding. I expect that the PBB compiler will be free. I do not expect (or want) Logos to convert the PBB's I created into the new format. I want the control for my own creations.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Matthew C Jones said:
I don't want to throw cold water on all the excitement but economic reality says it's an unsustainable business model. If Logos will function as a license clearing house, there will be ongoing costs.
Maybe Logos should have a flat charge per PBB in order to download. Just don't charge the creator [;)]
Joe K
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MJ. Smith said:
I expect that the PBB compiler will be free. I do not expect (or want) Logos to convert the PBB's I created into the new format.
I think Bob made it very clear the compiling would be done by Logos, on Logos servers, distributed from Logos servers and synched back to Logos servers.
The PBB store will not be FREE. At least that is what I maintain is to be reasonably expected. I am just trying to temper the excitement with a dose of reality.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Matthew C Jones said:
every poster in this thread is assuming that
Actually, my question about the business model was exactly to the point that I didn't t expect compiling even our own books to be free. I'd love that, though.
Dudley
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Joe K said:
Maybe Logos should have a flat charge per PBB in order to download. Just don't charge the creator
At the reasonable $.99 per download, I would have to spend $990+ to move my PBB collection into Logos 4.
And you can count on any public domain stuff NOT being offered if a Logos alternative has been produced. Why should Logos drop Calvin's Commentaries (46 vols.) http://www.logos.com/products/details/5161 for $399 and allow the download of PBB for a dollar each?
I have a great suggestion for everyone who hates synching with the cloud, misses their notes and PBB library: Just keep using Logos Version 3!
I have got the best of both worlds. (Logos 3 & 4)
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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