Gold ...or... SR1 Beta?

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Posts 222
Bob Turner | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 30 2010 12:14 PM

ok great!  

btw - i truly love that i can put Logos on any computer that i personally use myself.  
this makes life so much easier for me.  thanks for allowing this freedom and for trusting your customers.

River of Life Church: http://LifeOverflowing.org

Visit my blog: http://LifeOverflowing.org/pastor

 

Posts 5561
Forum MVP
Mike Binks | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 30 2010 12:46 PM

Pastor Bob Turner:
it would be one of the most basic features to implement.  am i wrong?

Hi Bob

Speaking as one who couldn't see the point of notes (and with my little experience of using them remain unconvinced) I should probably not comment however...

as I have yet to see Logos produce anything in the sort of format that I would like to print out directly, and because cut and paste is for the most part so easy... I can't see why direct printing is such a big deal.

tootle pip

Mike

How to get logs and post them. (now tagging post-apocalyptic fiction as current affairs)

Posts 698
LogosEmployee
Cameron Watters (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 30 2010 12:57 PM
Tom Philpot:

It only affects that computer, so you can switch just one.

Caveats:

Some items (e.g. shortcuts) which are synchronized can be changed in non-backwards compatible ways. When/if that happens, items created on the newer (bet) version, will likely not sync to the older (stable) version. This exact scenario affected shortcuts for Logos 4 Windows 4.0d and 4.1 Beta. Shortcuts created in 4.1 would not sync back to 4.0d.

If a beta version introduces a data corruption bug (God forbid) that affects sync items that haven't been changed in such a way to prevent syncing (schema change), that data corruption may be synchronized back to the non-Beta computers. For instance, if there were a bug that caused notes data to be corrupted, that data could be synced back to your non-Beta instal. This actually happened to one user when we released Beta 1 for Mac. We fixed the bug really quickly and, as far as we know, only one user was affected.

Director of Engineering for Enterprise and Operations

Posts 13420
Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 30 2010 1:07 PM

Cameron Watters:
If a beta version introduces a data corruption bug (God forbid) that affects sync items that haven't been changed in such a way to prevent syncing (schema change), that data corruption may be synchronized back to the non-Beta computers

It happened on Windows once as well. Collections were duplicated on one machine. But if you deleted one of the duplicates this deletion was then synced back to the first machine, where the only copy was deleted.

Posts 1246
David Mitchell | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 30 2010 1:27 PM

Pastor Bob Turner:
is there still no printing support?

this is one thing i find very odd... having all these tools & resources available, and yet no ability to print directly from Logos.  i don't know that much about software development, but this seems like it would be one of the most basic features to implement.  am i wrong?

In short: yes, you're wrong Smile.

Just a few things to consider that can be involved: finding out what printers are connected to the system, discovering what paper sizes are available, determining whether any attached printer supports fun stuff like double-sided printing, ensuring that margins are large enough that nothing gets clipped as a result of the physical limitations of the printer, paginating content so that lines of text aren't clipped near page boundaries, ensuring that images and other visual elements are printed at an acceptable DPI (what looks good on the screen will look blurry on the page)…

I could go on, but I'm sure you get the point.

David Mitchell
Development Lead
Faithlife

Posts 222
Bob Turner | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 30 2010 1:30 PM

this is a little dorky... but i like that info graphics will appear on the home page... 

sounds like i'll just wait for this to be an actual release though.

River of Life Church: http://LifeOverflowing.org

Visit my blog: http://LifeOverflowing.org/pastor

 

Posts 34
JinHTown | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 30 2010 1:32 PM

I don't need printing so much - copy and paste is fine.

I'm also thankful for the beta release...thanks guys.  Before I couldn't change any layouts, or quit L4 without having to force quit.  I am experiencing some "instability" with this beta, but these new issues seem to be better than what I had before.  

Thanks again devel. team (I'll try to get some logs in pretty soon).

Posts 26
Daniel B. | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 30 2010 5:31 PM

Even very primitive printing would be awesome (and dearly needed)... If you simply allowed printing to PDF, standard size (8.5x11") paper with 1" margins, the user can do the rest. Cool

 

 

"A God without wrath brought men without sin into a kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a cross" Helmut Richard Niebuhr: The Kingdom of God in America (speaking facetiously)

 

Posts 5561
Forum MVP
Mike Binks | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 1 2010 2:26 AM

Even very primitive printing would be awesome (and dearly needed)... If you simply allowed printing to PDF, standard size (8.5x11") paper with 1" margins, the user can do the rest. Cool

Ok Daniel,

I have sat and looked and wondered about your post for a couple of minutes and I just don't understand.

What use would primitive printing be? As I said in an earlier post; I can think of nothing in Logos that is presented in a form that I would want to print directly.

Bible Passages are perhaps the nearest but they would rarely be stand alone print jobs - when I want them out of the program there is almost always some presentation work need to be done before they are handed on. If Logos was a presentation program then I could agree - but it is a study program - and which bits of the study should be chosen for printing? I am sorry but I just don't get it.

By the way Standard Paper is A4 (210mm × 297mm) it is only a small sub set of the world that hasn't moved on from the old 'Legal' size of paper.

Which is another complication that the developers would have to cope with.

tootle pip

Mike

How to get logs and post them. (now tagging post-apocalyptic fiction as current affairs)

Posts 396
Fernando A Gonzalez | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 1 2010 6:02 AM

Thank you all for the clear explanations.

Now I'm curious how many users will choose the "stable" vs. "beta" tracks?

For me, I'm going BETA.  

However, I think a forum dedicated to the Beta is in order, specially since there will be a larger number of users now coming into the L4Mac community after the official release that may be confused by the mixed discussions.

Posts 73
Mariano Proto | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 1 2010 7:09 AM

Well If you guys are wondering to update to Beta? I did it and I wish I hadn't. Its very slow, unstable. so stick to Gold and wait for new release. 

 

Posts 149
Robert Dean, Jr | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 1 2010 7:13 AM

And when will 4.1 stable be available for Mac so we have true parity?

 

 

Posts 255
Pat Flanakin | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 1 2010 7:21 AM

Perhaps you can name one software available that emphasizes literary use of resources where you cannot print.  There may be another, but 99.9% of literary based software CAN PRINT.

With all due respect, your argument that one person, or two doesn't print at all is not a basis for leaving out the printing support from day 1; you have to consider all those using the software who are not active on the forums who you do not know.  I personally know 3 pastors who utilize the software from before Libronix and have always used the print function and never would have seen it as useful without it.  I bet people who have been waiting to get the official release and find there is no printing support will think they have been short-changed.

 

Robert Pavich:

Pastor Bob....

Printing is coming; how fast to the Mac side I can't say but it's in the latest Win release.

One thing to note is that according to Logos "stats" that they collected over the years from users...not many users (as compared to the whole of Logos users) printed from the app.

I like printing but according to Logos stats...I'm in the minority.

I know at least a user or two on this board who doesn't using printing AT ALL....

I know that doesn't help when you need to print I just thought you'd be interested to know why they made the decisions that they did.

 

Posts 8660
TCBlack | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 1 2010 7:22 AM

Robert Dean, Jr:

And when will 4.1 stable be available for Mac so we have true parity?

Not to sound flippant but... When it's done.  Smile  Right now the Mac Devs outnumber the Windows Devs by a fair margin, I think that will translate into some very interesting competition in the near future.   I can almost see the day that Win users are asking, "When are we going to get the features that the Mac guys did a month ago?"  Indifferent

 

Hmm Sarcasm is my love language. Obviously I love you. 

Posts 1246
David Mitchell | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 1 2010 7:43 AM

Pat Flanakin:

Perhaps you can name one software available that emphasizes literary use of resources where you cannot print.  There may be another, but 99.9% of literary based software CAN PRINT.

With all due respect, your argument that one person, or two doesn't print at all is not a basis for leaving out the printing support from day 1; you have to consider all those using the software who are not active on the forums who you do not know.  I personally know 3 pastors who utilize the software from before Libronix and have always used the print function and never would have seen it as useful without it.  I bet people who have been waiting to get the official release and find there is no printing support will think they have been short-changed.

Robert Pavich:

Pastor Bob....

Printing is coming; how fast to the Mac side I can't say but it's in the latest Win release.

One thing to note is that according to Logos "stats" that they collected over the years from users...not many users (as compared to the whole of Logos users) printed from the app.

I like printing but according to Logos stats...I'm in the minority.

I know at least a user or two on this board who doesn't using printing AT ALL....

I know that doesn't help when you need to print I just thought you'd be interested to know why they made the decisions that they did.

I'm sure we all have anecdotes about the preferences of one or two users—that's why it's important to collect usage statistics, which we do (and not just from forum users!). For most users, printing was not nearly as important as all of the other new features that went into 4.0, so we skipped it. And with the advent of devices like the iPhone and iPad, it's becoming even less important.

That said, we've tried to be as transparent as possible about what our software does and doesn't do. This page has documented from day one which features are not included (that were present in previous versions of Libronix), and you'll note that it still says that printing support hasn't yet been included in a stable release. Furthermore, I'm sure that customer service would be happy to give a refund to anyone who feels that they've been cheated out of their money because we offer a software package that doesn't provide support for printing.

David Mitchell
Development Lead
Faithlife

Posts 34
JinHTown | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 1 2010 7:55 AM

Well...here is my vote again - I am extremely happy that you skipped printing for a little while to work on those "other" features (looking forward to sentence diagramming, scrolling optimization, improvements to syntax search, etc.).  I'll be glad when printing comes, but I just don't use it much (actually, never).  Copy and paste is much easier to utilize for my work in Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic, where I prefer to use Mellel and print from there or create a fresh keynote for presenting.

Thanks for your transparency.  It's much appreciated.

Posts 844
Dewayne Davis | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 1 2010 9:50 AM

David Mitchell:
For most users, printing was not nearly as important as all of the other new features that went into 4.0, so we skipped it.

The only time I used printing, was when I wanted to sit down and read something. But with laptops and phones, this particular need is going by the wayside. If I win the iPad in the drawing, then I may never print again...

“... every day in which I do not penetrate more deeply into the knowledge of God’s Word in Holy Scripture is a lost day for me. I can only move forward with certainty upon the firm ground of the Word of God.”

Posts 1875
Alan Macgregor | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 1 2010 10:07 AM

I think I could count on the fingers of one hand the number of times I've printed straight from Logos in all my years since Logos 1.6!

Like others, cut and paste does it for me!

iMac Retina 5K, 27": 3.6GHz 8-Core Intel Core i9; 16GB RAM;MacOS 10.15.5; 1TB SSD; Logos 8

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Posts 1416
Wes Saad | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 1 2010 11:26 AM

I like to print out my passage lists and clippings when working on a sermon so I'll be glad to see the feature in the Mac version.

Posts 26
Daniel B. | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 1 2010 1:09 PM

Mike Binks:

What use would primitive printing be? As I said in an earlier post; I can think of nothing in Logos that is presented in a form that I would want to print directly.

The uses of printing are many:

1. Reading something 'on paper'. MANY PEOPLE prefer to read things on paper as they can mark the text up. Sure, one can do that in Logos, but I work from a laptop... my desktop space is limited; my MacBook Pro has a maximum resolution of 1200x800 pixels. I work 8+ hours/day on a computer (before doing Bible study), sometimes my eyes (which are quite bad) need a break... 

For example... I often read journal articles that I download from an online database. However, prior to reading them - I print them. It would be unreasonable for the online database to say I cannot print a journal article. I then read the journal articles and mark them up. Finally, upon the completion of my research, I gather everything physically in front of my and start writing my paper.

 

2. Exporting my notes from Logos. I would prefer to print to PDF these notes.

3. Just because you may not use a print feature does not mean that many other users wouldn't use it.

 

Mike Binks:

Bible Passages are perhaps the nearest but they would rarely be stand alone print jobs - when I want them out of the program there is almost always some presentation work need to be done before they are handed on. If Logos was a presentation program then I could agree - but it is a study program - and which bits of the study should be chosen for printing? I am sorry but I just don't get it.

Logos is not only a study program, it is also a research program. Many people utilize it, as they would any other book, for research. For research, I'll take something printed out anyway I can get it - and quickly get it. One shouldn't have to cut and paste to another program to print... then Logos is dependent upon other programs. I like to read some(many) things on physical paper. And I'm not a fuddy-duddy. Big Smile 

I think the role ought to be reversed and not have those who need/want a printing feature to feel guilty for asking for one (or suggest, as one Logos employee did, that the customer contact customer service to get a refund...Hmm). Rather, maybe it should be explained why this feature is not in the works (at least planning phase). The end-user should be able to assume that a (even primitive/simple) print feature is forthcoming. 

Mike Binks:

 

By the way Standard Paper is A4 (210mm × 297mm) it is only a small sub set of the world that hasn't moved on from the old 'Legal' size of paper.

Which is another complication that the developers would have to cope with.

 

I wouldn't try to make the developers' lives difficult, hence the primitive printing. Primitive printing - to PDF, with a set paper size (choose a size, any size - the end-user can convert it), is not asking for the moon. I would pay extra for this feature, although I shouldn't have to.

Print features are common to most all software, and common to all software that deals with text. Even GarageBand (the music-making program for Mac) has printing capabilities. And even Logos' direct competitor on mac has it...  

A printing feature is all I want for Christmas this year.  Embarrassed    Please

 

 

 

"A God without wrath brought men without sin into a kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a cross" Helmut Richard Niebuhr: The Kingdom of God in America (speaking facetiously)

 

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