I'm considering trying the SR1 Beta... but... I am curious for info from those who have tried it already.
Does this make it go back to super slow mode again? Any big negatives to personal study & sermon prep if I try this out??
Choosing to set your update channel to beta is a bit like ordering food at a restaurant that doesn't display the prices…if you have to ask, you're probably not in the right place.
I'd strongly recommend staying on the stable channel unless you know, without a doubt, that you want to use the beta.
Pastor Bob,
SR1 Beta seems to be just as fast as the Gold. This is my second day of using it (using it pretty much all day/night) and I've seen no quirks.
is there still no printing support?
this is one thing i find very odd... having all these tools & resources available, and yet no ability to print directly from Logos. i don't know that much about software development, but this seems like it would be one of the most basic features to implement. am i wrong?
Pastor Bob....
Printing is coming; how fast to the Mac side I can't say but it's in the latest Win release.
One thing to note is that according to Logos "stats" that they collected over the years from users...not many users (as compared to the whole of Logos users) printed from the app.
I like printing but according to Logos stats...I'm in the minority.
I know at least a user or two on this board who doesn't using printing AT ALL....
I know that doesn't help when you need to print I just thought you'd be interested to know why they made the decisions that they did.
ordering food at a restaurant that doesn't display the prices…if you have to ask, you're probably not in the right place.
i've honestly never understood this analogy.it just seems foolish not to ask questions prior to an action with unknown consequences.
i think that's in Proverbs like... umm... everywhere. [:P]
Roberts - thanks for that info. i appreciate it. i know i can just copy & paste into Pages... just really looking forward to being able to print directly from Logos & also using it more for sermon development inside the program itself.
another feature i'm looking forward to is the "Handouts" feature. personally, with printing, i will be using that feature a lot.
thanks again Robert i appreciate the 411.
ordering food at a restaurant that doesn't display the prices…if you have to ask, you're probably not in the right place. i've honestly never understood this analogy.it just seems foolish not to ask questions prior to an action with unknown consequences. i think that's in Proverbs like... umm... everywhere.
i think that's in Proverbs like... umm... everywhere.
Even when prices at a restaurant go unpublished, one can generally infer that they fall within a certain range (else the restaurant would go out of business). However, if one is unfamiliar with this range, it generally implies that said person is likely to be unready for the expense of eating at such a restaurant.
Similarly, with any beta product, it is likely that certain classes of problems may occur—crashes, data corruption, glitches, and the list goes on. If you're unfamiliar with that range of problems, or if you're unwilling to have an unusable product on your hands for an unspecified period of time, the beta is not for you.
During the beta process for 4.0, we've tried to be as responsive as possible to users with problems because we understood that many users may have jumped in without having a full understanding of what the "beta" tag means. However, now that one has to make an extra effort in order to get beta releases, we'll be moving towards a more regimented release schedule for betas, and you may not see the quick turnaround that you may have gotten used to leading up to the release of 4.0 (to be clear, it's not that we don't care about beta users, it's just that pushing out a release is a time-consuming process, and the unscheduled releases that were commonplace in the previous beta process slowed down development somewhat in the long-term, even if they did ease short-term pain).
it just seems foolish not to ask questions prior to an action with unknown consequences.
I think this is a fallacy related to scale of consequence. When going out for lunch alone, I generally aim to keep the bill under $10 US, but I'm not terribly concerned about the difference between $6 and $7. When taken as a percentage of total financial capacity, someone with greater financial resources may be able to spend $1000 on a single meal while maintaining a similar ratio of meal-price-to-financial-capacity ratio. Similarly, I live in a first-world country with a good job in an area with above-average cost of living, so compared to someone living in the third-world, my $10 for lunch may seem ridiculously extravagant.
Evaluating the potential consequences of an action is more about understanding the range/scope of potential consequences rather than knowing the specific consequence for a particular action. Life is rarely so deterministic. In this case, a restaurant without prices requires patrons to be able to endure a broader range of potential consequences than a restaurant with prices. Further, they expect that you already know (based on experience/judgement rather than their informing you) what the potential range of consequences is. When the price of acquiring the entire restaurant is a rounding error on last year's financial statement, I suspect one isn't particularly worried about meal price.
how do you go back to Gold version???
that's it... i'm going to lunch.
That's just it: you don't.
Once you're in the beta, you're in until the next stable release.
Unless you want to delete everything and start over.
Oh so we CAN go back to a non-Beta then? well that changes everything. [Y]
How do I get Logos to make lunch for me?
Oh so we CAN go back to a non-Beta then? well that changes everything.
Oh so we CAN go back to a non-Beta then? well that changes everything. Except David said... Unless you want to delete everything and start over. Starting over with Logos app, and by that I take it it means clean slate, downloading and indexing all resources again, is not a decision to take lightly.
Starting over with Logos app, and by that I take it it means clean slate, downloading and indexing all resources again, is not a decision to take lightly.
It's also not a complete guarantee that you'll be in a usable state when you finish all of that—for example, if you've synced data from the beta that has a format unsupported by the previous version.
I have Logos on my personal laptop, my computer at the church, and also the computer in my home office... if i switch one (say the one at the church) to the Beta, will that switch them all? or just that specific computer only?
It only affects that computer, so you can switch just one.
To clarify what Cameron said. You can't downgrade Logos.
So if you are using 4.0 stable, and then start using 4.1 beta 1, you cannot go back to 4.0 unless you completely reinstall. Even if they release 4.0a after 4.1beta1, you'll not be able to use it. You'll only be able to go back to a stable build once 4.1 stable comes out.
ok great!
btw - i truly love that i can put Logos on any computer that i personally use myself. this makes life so much easier for me. thanks for allowing this freedom and for trusting your customers.
it would be one of the most basic features to implement. am i wrong?
Hi Bob
Speaking as one who couldn't see the point of notes (and with my little experience of using them remain unconvinced) I should probably not comment however...
as I have yet to see Logos produce anything in the sort of format that I would like to print out directly, and because cut and paste is for the most part so easy... I can't see why direct printing is such a big deal.
Caveats:
Some items (e.g. shortcuts) which are synchronized can be changed in non-backwards compatible ways. When/if that happens, items created on the newer (bet) version, will likely not sync to the older (stable) version. This exact scenario affected shortcuts for Logos 4 Windows 4.0d and 4.1 Beta. Shortcuts created in 4.1 would not sync back to 4.0d.
If a beta version introduces a data corruption bug (God forbid) that affects sync items that haven't been changed in such a way to prevent syncing (schema change), that data corruption may be synchronized back to the non-Beta computers. For instance, if there were a bug that caused notes data to be corrupted, that data could be synced back to your non-Beta instal. This actually happened to one user when we released Beta 1 for Mac. We fixed the bug really quickly and, as far as we know, only one user was affected.
If a beta version introduces a data corruption bug (God forbid) that affects sync items that haven't been changed in such a way to prevent syncing (schema change), that data corruption may be synchronized back to the non-Beta computers
It happened on Windows once as well. Collections were duplicated on one machine. But if you deleted one of the duplicates this deletion was then synced back to the first machine, where the only copy was deleted.
is there still no printing support? this is one thing i find very odd... having all these tools & resources available, and yet no ability to print directly from Logos. i don't know that much about software development, but this seems like it would be one of the most basic features to implement. am i wrong?
In short: yes, you're wrong [:)].
Just a few things to consider that can be involved: finding out what printers are connected to the system, discovering what paper sizes are available, determining whether any attached printer supports fun stuff like double-sided printing, ensuring that margins are large enough that nothing gets clipped as a result of the physical limitations of the printer, paginating content so that lines of text aren't clipped near page boundaries, ensuring that images and other visual elements are printed at an acceptable DPI (what looks good on the screen will look blurry on the page)…
I could go on, but I'm sure you get the point.
this is a little dorky... but i like that info graphics will appear on the home page...
sounds like i'll just wait for this to be an actual release though.
I don't need printing so much - copy and paste is fine.
I'm also thankful for the beta release...thanks guys. Before I couldn't change any layouts, or quit L4 without having to force quit. I am experiencing some "instability" with this beta, but these new issues seem to be better than what I had before.
Thanks again devel. team (I'll try to get some logs in pretty soon).
Even very primitive printing would be awesome (and dearly needed)... If you simply allowed printing to PDF, standard size (8.5x11") paper with 1" margins, the user can do the rest. [H]
Even very primitive printing would be awesome (and dearly needed)... If you simply allowed printing to PDF, standard size (8.5x11") paper with 1" margins, the user can do the rest.
Ok Daniel,
I have sat and looked and wondered about your post for a couple of minutes and I just don't understand.
What use would primitive printing be? As I said in an earlier post; I can think of nothing in Logos that is presented in a form that I would want to print directly.
Bible Passages are perhaps the nearest but they would rarely be stand alone print jobs - when I want them out of the program there is almost always some presentation work need to be done before they are handed on. If Logos was a presentation program then I could agree - but it is a study program - and which bits of the study should be chosen for printing? I am sorry but I just don't get it.
By the way Standard Paper is A4 (210mm × 297mm) it is only a small sub set of the world that hasn't moved on from the old 'Legal' size of paper.
Which is another complication that the developers would have to cope with.
Thank you all for the clear explanations.
Now I'm curious how many users will choose the "stable" vs. "beta" tracks?
For me, I'm going BETA.
However, I think a forum dedicated to the Beta is in order, specially since there will be a larger number of users now coming into the L4Mac community after the official release that may be confused by the mixed discussions.
Well If you guys are wondering to update to Beta? I did it and I wish I hadn't. Its very slow, unstable. so stick to Gold and wait for new release.
And when will 4.1 stable be available for Mac so we have true parity?
Perhaps you can name one software available that emphasizes literary use of resources where you cannot print. There may be another, but 99.9% of literary based software CAN PRINT.
With all due respect, your argument that one person, or two doesn't print at all is not a basis for leaving out the printing support from day 1; you have to consider all those using the software who are not active on the forums who you do not know. I personally know 3 pastors who utilize the software from before Libronix and have always used the print function and never would have seen it as useful without it. I bet people who have been waiting to get the official release and find there is no printing support will think they have been short-changed.
Pastor Bob.... Printing is coming; how fast to the Mac side I can't say but it's in the latest Win release. One thing to note is that according to Logos "stats" that they collected over the years from users...not many users (as compared to the whole of Logos users) printed from the app. I like printing but according to Logos stats...I'm in the minority. I know at least a user or two on this board who doesn't using printing AT ALL.... I know that doesn't help when you need to print I just thought you'd be interested to know why they made the decisions that they did.
Perhaps you can name one software available that emphasizes literary use of resources where you cannot print. There may be another, but 99.9% of literary based software CAN PRINT. With all due respect, your argument that one person, or two doesn't print at all is not a basis for leaving out the printing support from day 1; you have to consider all those using the software who are not active on the forums who you do not know. I personally know 3 pastors who utilize the software from before Libronix and have always used the print function and never would have seen it as useful without it. I bet people who have been waiting to get the official release and find there is no printing support will think they have been short-changed. Pastor Bob.... Printing is coming; how fast to the Mac side I can't say but it's in the latest Win release. One thing to note is that according to Logos "stats" that they collected over the years from users...not many users (as compared to the whole of Logos users) printed from the app. I like printing but according to Logos stats...I'm in the minority. I know at least a user or two on this board who doesn't using printing AT ALL.... I know that doesn't help when you need to print I just thought you'd be interested to know why they made the decisions that they did.
I'm sure we all have anecdotes about the preferences of one or two users—that's why it's important to collect usage statistics, which we do (and not just from forum users!). For most users, printing was not nearly as important as all of the other new features that went into 4.0, so we skipped it. And with the advent of devices like the iPhone and iPad, it's becoming even less important.
That said, we've tried to be as transparent as possible about what our software does and doesn't do. This page has documented from day one which features are not included (that were present in previous versions of Libronix), and you'll note that it still says that printing support hasn't yet been included in a stable release. Furthermore, I'm sure that customer service would be happy to give a refund to anyone who feels that they've been cheated out of their money because we offer a software package that doesn't provide support for printing.
Well...here is my vote again - I am extremely happy that you skipped printing for a little while to work on those "other" features (looking forward to sentence diagramming, scrolling optimization, improvements to syntax search, etc.). I'll be glad when printing comes, but I just don't use it much (actually, never). Copy and paste is much easier to utilize for my work in Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic, where I prefer to use Mellel and print from there or create a fresh keynote for presenting.
Thanks for your transparency. It's much appreciated.
For most users, printing was not nearly as important as all of the other new features that went into 4.0, so we skipped it.
The only time I used printing, was when I wanted to sit down and read something. But with laptops and phones, this particular need is going by the wayside. If I win the iPad in the drawing, then I may never print again...
I think I could count on the fingers of one hand the number of times I've printed straight from Logos in all my years since Logos 1.6!
Like others, cut and paste does it for me!
I like to print out my passage lists and clippings when working on a sermon so I'll be glad to see the feature in the Mac version.
The uses of printing are many:
1. Reading something 'on paper'. MANY PEOPLE prefer to read things on paper as they can mark the text up. Sure, one can do that in Logos, but I work from a laptop... my desktop space is limited; my MacBook Pro has a maximum resolution of 1200x800 pixels. I work 8+ hours/day on a computer (before doing Bible study), sometimes my eyes (which are quite bad) need a break...
For example... I often read journal articles that I download from an online database. However, prior to reading them - I print them. It would be unreasonable for the online database to say I cannot print a journal article. I then read the journal articles and mark them up. Finally, upon the completion of my research, I gather everything physically in front of my and start writing my paper.
2. Exporting my notes from Logos. I would prefer to print to PDF these notes.
3. Just because you may not use a print feature does not mean that many other users wouldn't use it.
Logos is not only a study program, it is also a research program. Many people utilize it, as they would any other book, for research. For research, I'll take something printed out anyway I can get it - and quickly get it. One shouldn't have to cut and paste to another program to print... then Logos is dependent upon other programs. I like to read some(many) things on physical paper. And I'm not a fuddy-duddy. [:D]
I think the role ought to be reversed and not have those who need/want a printing feature to feel guilty for asking for one (or suggest, as one Logos employee did, that the customer contact customer service to get a refund...[^o)]). Rather, maybe it should be explained why this feature is not in the works (at least planning phase). The end-user should be able to assume that a (even primitive/simple) print feature is forthcoming.
By the way Standard Paper is A4 (210mm × 297mm) it is only a small sub set of the world that hasn't moved on from the old 'Legal' size of paper. Which is another complication that the developers would have to cope with.
I wouldn't try to make the developers' lives difficult, hence the primitive printing. Primitive printing - to PDF, with a set paper size (choose a size, any size - the end-user can convert it), is not asking for the moon. I would pay extra for this feature, although I shouldn't have to.
Print features are common to most all software, and common to all software that deals with text. Even GarageBand (the music-making program for Mac) has printing capabilities. And even Logos' direct competitor on mac has it...
A printing feature is all I want for Christmas this year. [:$] Please
absolutely.
A printing feature is all I want for Christmas this year.
I'm sure we all have anecdotes about the preferences of one or two users—that's why it's important to collect usage statistics, which we do (and not just from forum users!). For most users, printing was not nearly as important as all of the other new features that went into 4.0, so we skipped it. And with the advent of devices like the iPhone and iPad, it's becoming even less important. That said, we've tried to be as transparent as possible about what our software does and doesn't do. This page has documented from day one which features are not included (that were present in previous versions of Libronix), and you'll note that it still says that printing support hasn't yet been included in a stable release.Furthermore, I'm sure that customer service would be happy to give a refund to anyone who feels that they've been cheated out of their money because we offer a software package that doesn't provide support for printing.
That said, we've tried to be as transparent as possible about what our software does and doesn't do. This page has documented from day one which features are not included (that were present in previous versions of Libronix), and you'll note that it still says that printing support hasn't yet been included in a stable release.Furthermore, I'm sure that customer service would be happy to give a refund to anyone who feels that they've been cheated out of their money because we offer a software package that doesn't provide support for printing.
A printing feature is all I want for Christmas this year. So, umm, everybody knows that printing is on our list, right? And that Windows just got it? It's not like we need convincing…
I had just mentioned it in passing in this forum. It is an important feature. I am glad it is forthcoming, because I know it was previously promised (Had it not been, I would have went with the less-aesthetically-pleasing Accordance).
Thanks, Cameron, for clarifying. [:D]
