Downloads: Its time for General Consensus to be considered

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Friedrich | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 8 2010 7:51 AM

Philip Spitzer:

While, like others, this issue means little to me because of where I live I recognize that download concerns are different for those in areas with limited high speed access, or tied in to download limits. I hope that Logos is able to find and put resources to a good solution that meets the needs of these fellow Logos Lovers that builds upon how things are currently down. Personally I want to be able to blissfully download my updates in the background without caring about what is going on. However I would be willing to give up a little bliss if it aides others. If you want to know how much bliss I would be willing to give up you will have to ask the General.

this is where i am at, too.

I like Apples.  Especially Honeycrisp.

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Friedrich | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 8 2010 8:14 AM

Andrew McKenzie:

Dan DeVilder:

Andrew McKenzie:
If you are asking, do I think its about time Logos stop ignoring this issue then, yes I do think it is time

Andrew, I would hope you would be as persistent a fighter without such an edge.

I respect where you are coming from, but around here if you don't have an edge you or your suggestions will get bullied out of the forums.

See, I don't think so.  I DO know my own tendency to want to spout off if I perceive I am not being listened to.  I DO know how in the past I have emailed tech talking a bit dismissively about some problem I was experiencing (anything from notes in 2.1 to highlighting vanishing when I used my touch pad).  I have since repented.  I have also seen my suggestions implemented, or addressed, or altered, over time.

I have also suggested things that people have shot down--which I hate.  But I just come right back with persistance as to why it is important to me, . . . and sometimes I learn something about the bigger picture that gives me a different perspective.

We are not talking about indentured slavery, child abuse, or anything like that here.  We are talking about product and the policy/direction of that product.  And few of us have the same set of needs or wishes as the next guy.  And Logos has to make all 700K of it's customers happy.  What a job.

I myself won't blast your opinions and suggestions--and haven't, as far as I can remember.  Often you are right on the money.  Have people been dismissive of others?  Yes.  Have those who felt dismissed responded (sometimes even started their communication) with condescension?  Yes.  Neither is Christ-like.  Both must be repented of.

I like Apples.  Especially Honeycrisp.

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Bob Pritchett | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Oct 9 2010 7:39 AM

I agree, it appears there is consensus that this feature is desired: knowing what's in the update, and knowing when a book was last downloaded/updated.

The "last modified" date column in the Library view is the easy one; the complication is probably that we have to extend some data structures, will need to recreate some files on your system, test the code, etc. It hasn't been a high priority, compared to 4.1 and even 4.2, but we can move it up now that those things are almost done and almost done.

I confess, I still have a hard time seeing the point of the "what's in this download" feature. I'm not saying we won't do it, but I want to make one more explanation of why it's truly useless, and your (collective, I'll admit) insistence on it will simply waste time and delay new features and bug fixes.

A) For reasons already explained to death, we can not support partial updates. It's all or nothing, including resources and code, which are tightly coupled.

B) So the only question is, "Do I want this now?" And that questions seems to be 100% about your bandwidth; because if bandwidth is not an issue, then the answer should always be yes. And if bandwidth is an issue, then make the decision based on your bandwidth scheduling. If there's anything so big/important/urgent that you would blow past your bandwidth caps to get it, that information will be readily available in a blog post, forum post, release notes, etc. that you can consult before turning updates on.

We're an organization of around 200 people. I don't want to say that we don't know what we're doing, but it is true that we don't all know what everyone's doing. This is, of course, a fixable problem. We can create tools, procedures, and other bureaucratic overhead that ensures that all this information is channeled appropriately. And more slowly.

1) When books are updated, they are put in a staging directory by the text team. They arrive as book files, which can be read by the Logos code on your hard drive. In simplistic terms (i admit, I don't even know the details myself!) they sit in an FTP directory. Your system asks if there are newer book files; there are, they're downloaded, and then the code on your machine can open and parse them and read out the metadata.  There's no place in this process for "why it was updated" to be recorded. That text team obviously knows, and sometimes even collects that info into a wiki page or email, but this is an informal process. And there are multiple text teams, some doing maintenance, some building new books, etc.

To tell you what books are there, and what's been updated, we'll need to a) write code to "open and read" the book files on the server. b) Build some sort of message/description storage database on the server to record "Spelling errors and typos corrected." or whatever the message is, and then to serve that to you. c) We'll need to write code on the client side to download these messages and file metadata, present it to you in a non-interruptive way, and only then download/not download it.

2) When the code is updated, by any of 20+ people working on it, a comment is attached to every "code checkin." This list of "what happened in this release" can be hundreds of lines long. So the teams maintain a more abstract list of "what's new in this release", which you eventually see in a forum or blog post. But to show this to you at the time of download, we'll need to maintain it more formally, store and serve it from a server, build a place in the UI to show it to you, etc.

We presently automatically download updates in the background using BITS (on Windows), and then tell you about the update in a limited-to-160 character message bubble on the system tray. BITS has the nice feature of using  background bandwidth and downloading over time, so you never have to say "Yes, update me." and then realize it's going to take 3 days. BITS doesn't tell you until it's already got it, even if it took weeks of sporadic short bursts.

Telling you what's in the download and then getting download permission means we'll be "teasing" people with the new download, then having them wait hours (days, on dialup?) to actually get it, and which point we have to interrupt them again to get permission to do the install.

 

And -- confession time, again -- I can't believe that if we go to all this trouble, we won't immediately be hit with a request to "let me download THIS book, but not THAT book," which is logistically even more of a nightmare.

Yes, we can do all this. But it is not simple and, at least how I see it, will result in more process overhead at Logos, making us less efficient, more interruptive messages in the UI, confusing more users, and a lot of telling 98% of our users details they don't care about, since they can't do anything except accept/reject the whole download.

I just see the whole thing creating more support hassles and more confusion, and benefiting only a small number of users who fall into one of two camps: 1) the "I want to know every detail" group (small, but passionate), and 2) the "I have limited bandwidth" group (also small, and to whom I'm sympathetic, but for whom this doesn't seem to help much, since in the end you still have to choose all/nothing about upgrading at this point, which you can already do by turning off auto updates and looking at the "new release" posts).

-- Bob

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TCBlack | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Oct 9 2010 8:12 AM

Thanks Bob,

Bob Pritchett:
benefiting only a small number of users who fall into one of two camps: 1) the "I want to know every detail" group (small, but passionate)
That'd be me.  But there is another reason I want to know what books/resources/program updates are downloading - and that's because people are asking and I have to answer.  For that - we've developed the wiki page: An update is downloading, what is it .  Even as a details guy I simply want to know that a download is bringing books or program updates.  I've now got enough experience that I know generally what it is and lacking a download cap at the moment I've not cared beyond the someone neurotic need to know, even if I'm going to click OK anyway.

Bob Pritchett:
and 2) the "I have limited bandwidth" group (also small, and to whom I'm sympathetic, but for whom this doesn't seem to help much, since in the end you still have to choose all/nothing about upgrading at this point, which you can already do by turning off auto updates and looking at the "new release" posts).
Being a member of Group one, I frankly don't really care about my type.  Generally the ones that are frantic enough to know which DLL's are being replaced have the skills already to figure it out.  (me).  IMHO it's this second group which needs the information.  

Yes it's not simple, and yes they are eventually going to click the OK box anyways; but there is a bit of mental staging that happens when you're at the end of a month's budget and you have to determine whether or not you want that ice cream cone with your family or gasoline in the tank so you can go to work in the morning.  I choose the gasoline every time.   

Ok, ignore my analogy it breaks down too easily.  But when it comes to budgeting bits I'd rather that those who need to so so have the capacity to do so.  

Seeing the complexity involved even on this small level  - I say ignore my desire for an thorough description of the bits.  But in the least assign one person to write a brief description of every update and post it somewhere where it appears on the home page of the program and duplicate a copy in the forum.    I realize that not everyone reads the forum, and not everyone reads the home page (guilty) but at least then you can say, "that information is consistently available at this location."

 

Truth Is Still Truth Even if You Don't Believe It

Check the Wiki

Warning: Sarcasm is my love language. I may inadvertently express my love to you.

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JRS | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Oct 9 2010 9:42 AM

For me, the only thing I really care about is a "Last Update" column for the resources in the Library view and a concise note about program updates that can be read in the Wiki, on the forums, by email, whatever and wherever.

I appreciate Bob's concern about growing the overhead by larding up the thoughput (and for minimal gain/return).  One of the inherent strengths in a small company is the ability to maneuver quickly as opposed to mega-corporations which maneuver very slowly and always seem to have people devoted to the perpetuation and growth of the bureaucracy.  Reminds me of Dickens' "Circumlocution Office"  in Little Dorrit.

How blessed is the one whom Thou dost choose, and bring near to Thee(Psa 65:4a)

Posts 18826
Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Oct 9 2010 10:24 AM

Thank you for responding, Bob.

Bob Pritchett:

The "last modified" date column in the Library view is the easy one; the complication is probably that we have to extend some data structures, will need to recreate some files on your system, test the code, etc. It hasn't been a high priority, compared to 4.1 and even 4.2, but we can move it up now that those things are almost done and almost done.

Good. That would be useful.

Bob Pritchett:

B) So the only question is, "Do I want this now?" And that questions seems to be 100% about your bandwidth; because if bandwidth is not an issue, then the answer should always be yes. And if bandwidth is an issue, then make the decision based on your bandwidth scheduling. If there's anything so big/important/urgent that you would blow past your bandwidth caps to get it, that information will be readily available in a blog post, forum post, release notes, etc. that you can consult before turning updates on.

Yes, the issue is bandwidth. The problem is, people can't make that decision without the knowledge of how big the download that is coming is. Right now Logos just tells them there is something new. It could be just a help file update or a single pre-pub that shipped, or it might include new versions of Biblical People/Places/Things databases which will be enormous. There is generally not an announcement on the forum when BP/P/T are being updated. MVPs are usually taken by surprise with that, too. Not that we mind. Most of us have unlimited bandwidth. But we end up taking all the questions from people who are upset by the surprise.

Bob Pritchett:

We're an organization of around 200 people. I don't want to say that we don't know what we're doing, but it is true that we don't all know what everyone's doing. This is, of course, a fixable problem. We can create tools, procedures, and other bureaucratic overhead that ensures that all this information is channeled appropriately. And more slowly.

1) When books are updated, they are put in a staging directory by the text team. They arrive as book files, which can be read by the Logos code on your hard drive. In simplistic terms (i admit, I don't even know the details myself!) they sit in an FTP directory. Your system asks if there are newer book files; there are, they're downloaded, and then the code on your machine can open and parse them and read out the metadata.  There's no place in this process for "why it was updated" to be recorded. That text team obviously knows, and sometimes even collects that info into a wiki page or email, but this is an informal process. And there are multiple text teams, some doing maintenance, some building new books, etc.

To tell you what books are there, and what's been updated, we'll need to a) write code to "open and read" the book files on the server. b) Build some sort of message/description storage database on the server to record "Spelling errors and typos corrected." or whatever the message is, and then to serve that to you. c) We'll need to write code on the client side to download these messages and file metadata, present it to you in a non-interruptive way, and only then download/not download it.

2) When the code is updated, by any of 20+ people working on it, a comment is attached to every "code checkin." This list of "what happened in this release" can be hundreds of lines long. So the teams maintain a more abstract list of "what's new in this release", which you eventually see in a forum or blog post. But to show this to you at the time of download, we'll need to maintain it more formally, store and serve it from a server, build a place in the UI to show it to you, etc.

 

Bob, with all due respect, you are shooting at a straw man. People are asking for L4 to bring back what L3 offered (minus the ability to selectively choose which files to download). That means just a list of what files will be downloaded and their sizes, and the new version number if it's a program update, not comments about what has changed in each file. This does not mean a massive change to add in bureaucratic overhead.

From an MVPs perspective, yes it is easy for me and power users to know where to find info in the blog, forum, release notes, email about pre-pubs shipping, etc. about what new files are going to be downloading. But it's all over the place, and most users don't know to look for that stuff, or they don't go looking until it's too late and they're irritated that they have to look for it rather than the info (filenames/sizes) being fed to them within the software as it was in L3.

Logos has been inconsistent in the past about posting lists when major new resource updates are coming. Even when Melissa does post a nice long list of resources that are about to be uploaded (which people do very much appreciate -- it gives the necessary info: filenames/sizes), most people don't see those posts. As you know the volume of posts on the forum is staggering, and even I who spend nearly all day on the forums can't keep up with them all. We MVPs get asked repeatedly what is this huge download and have to point people to the forum post, by which time it's too late for them to halt the download. And people want to know what it is even when it's just a couple of files. I can't tell you how many times someone has asked "what was that download" and we MVPs have had to research it in our own Resource folders and answered back "it was just a new version of the Help file." They were satisfied. That's all they want to know. "What is it?" Not "Why?"

If Logos is going to be downloading a list of files from the FTP server, it has to know what that list of files is in advance. Just show it to people on the screen so they can decide "yes, I want it now, it's less than what I have left in my download cap for this month" or "no, I'm going to have to wait until Nov 1" or "wow, it's got that pre-pub I've been waiting for in it, so I guess I'm willing to bite the bullet and pay extra to go over my download limit for this month." Simple as that. Don't make it into something bigger than what people have been asking for. Maybe it's a tease, and maybe they'll be disappointed to have to wait, but they're disappointed now at getting a big fat surprise when it turns out to be something huge they weren't expecting.

Bob Pritchett:

And -- confession time, again -- I can't believe that if we go to all this trouble, we won't immediately be hit with a request to "let me download THIS book, but not THAT book," which is logistically even more of a nightmare.

Quite possibly true, but your reason for saying "no" to that request still holds and is valid. You can continue to say no, and we MVPs will support you in that.

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Rich DeRuiter | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Oct 9 2010 11:10 AM

I like to know 1) how big the download is and 2) what is being downloaded.

1) How big tells me how long the download and indexing may take. This is a work-flow issue. I may decide to delay until later, so I can keep working on my research for now, and take a coffee break to do the download. For small downloads this is not an issue, for large ones it can be.

2) Telling me what is being updated let's me know if I'm downloading any new resources, and which resources are being updated. I always want to know, if I'm getting that pre-pub I was notified about. It also tells me if there are some resources I am currently using that are being updated, which means I can take a look at any typos I've recently reported for those resources, and more importantly, if there is anything new that I may have missed (very rare, I admit). I know that I can get this info after the update by checking my resource directly, but you know, that feels like a work around, if not an inelegant kludge.

I also think this is valuable for the reasons mentioned above by the others above. Particularly for the sake of those who have download caps, and to cut down on forum clutter about this issue.

Minimally, I would like to know just two things: 1) How big the update is in KB or MB. 2) The number of resources being downloaded. (e.g. 1.2MB, including 3 resources).

Optimally, I would like to know: 1) How big the update is in KB or MB; 2) Which resources are being downloaded in a simple list without comments; 3) if the update includes any program updates (e.g. 1.2MB [list of resources], includes program updates). I don't feel a need to know which program updates are being downloaded, and expect I can easily find this out on the forums.

A post-download option to see a report in the library about the latest downloads would also be nice, and I think may users would enjoy it.

 Help links: WIKI;  Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Oct 9 2010 12:30 PM

Bob Pritchett:
I just see the whole thing creating more support hassles and more confusion, and benefiting only a small number of users who fall into one of two camps:

I think the people with genuine problems (as opposed to those who just want to know) should be satisfied with a very simple list:

  • software update - version and size
  • resource update - titles and total size of the resource update

What I think those of us with fast service and no caps are missing is:

  • if downloading noticeably slows my machine, I may wish to delay downloading until AFTER I have finished tonight's Bible study handout
  • if I have a cap it is usually set for a particular length of time, usually a month. I may wish to delay the downloading to the first of next month - or if the resource is critical I may wish to budget for exceeding the cap

I think these two issues should be addressed with fairly high priority.

 

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Oct 18 2010 10:00 PM

Bob, I'm coming in late on this one, but my reaction after reading/disseminating your post is well captured by Rosie (at least 99.9%)!

I want to know what and how much is coming. I don't need to know why. I've accepted your reasons for not allowing a choice of books to download and will continue to support that decision.

With that limited information we will be saving your staff the time it takes to collate it manually and publish in the forums + forum bandwidth answering "what was that?" questions.

However, I'm puzzled by the following:-

Bob Pritchett:

We presently automatically download updates in the background using BITS (on Windows), and then tell you about the update in a limited-to-160 character message bubble on the system tray. BITS has the nice feature of using  background bandwidth and downloading over time, so you never have to say "Yes, update me." and then realize it's going to take 3 days. BITS doesn't tell you until it's already got it, even if it took weeks of sporadic short bursts.

Telling you what's in the download and then getting download permission means we'll be "teasing" people with the new download, then having them wait hours (days, on dialup?) to actually get it, and which point we have to interrupt them again to get permission to do the install.

Are you saying it could take weeks to notify us about a download and then a similar time to re-download, doubling my bandwidth requirement? Is this the scenario with Automatically Download Updates = Yes? I think you might be "teasing" us when the implementation can readily obviate unnecessary delays/downloading!

Dave
===

Windows 10 & Android 8

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nicky crane | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Oct 19 2010 11:28 AM

MJ. Smith:

I think the people with genuine problems (as opposed to those who just want to know) should be satisfied with a very simple list:

  • software update - version and size
  • resource update - titles and total size of the resource update

What I think those of us with fast service and no caps are missing is:

  • if downloading noticeably slows my machine, I may wish to delay downloading until AFTER I have finished tonight's Bible study handout
  • if I have a cap it is usually set for a particular length of time, usually a month. I may wish to delay the downloading to the first of next month - or if the resource is critical I may wish to budget for exceeding the cap

I think these two issues should be addressed with fairly high priority.

I do agree that the minimal info you mention would be enough for me.  If the update is something I don't find urgent, but is big, I might choose to delay it to the end of the month and beginning of the next (I've had a 5 day update!!).  So it helps to know how big it is.  BITS does not work on my ISP, so I,ve been blocked from email etc internet access for days on end while downloading.  Dave did very kindly offer to make me a fix for that, but I was apprehensive about meddling with the registry.

I'd also appreciate the option of  downloading new resources, usually smallish, before mammoth updates.  I realise I'm one of a tiny minority, but these multi-GIG updates are a mammoth problem for me.  I have appreciated the last small updates.

I think a message on homepage, possibly with a link to the wiki page, or at least its address, would be a great help.  Preferably at least a day or 2 before the update.  The last update had started on my computer before the (much appreciated) post appeared on the forum.

I'd also  make a plea that we try to be  less combative in the forums, this one included.  

I was happy to see that update notification is at last under consideration.  As I think it was request no 3 in number of votes in Uservoice today, I would hope that Logos will listen to the voice of its users on this point Wink

 

Posts 1918
Donnie Hale | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 20 2010 12:15 PM

BITS is great for control at the workstation level. However, if nothing else is happening on an individual workstation, BITS can let the floodgates open and saturate my entire internet connection. This  happened to me last night. What was my recourse? Putting my laptop to sleep until a better time, at which point I had to manually fire it up and let the download proceed. Ugh!

Let me download a .zip file (with the entire update) using any tool I want, place it someplace local where Logos can see it, and update from there. That lets me use a tool like Free Download Manager to throttle bandwidth in a way that benefits my entire network and do the download someplace where I have access to 50 times the bandwidth.

Under the heading of "General Consensus regarding User Experience", software design should never be used as a reason to trump user experience.

My $.02 ...

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Mark Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 4 2010 3:08 PM

Bob,

You'll be happy to know that I don't care. True, I've opened my resources folder every now and again to figure it out what downloaded, but the 'fix' now in the 4.2 beta works for me.

Pastor, North Park Baptist Church

Bridgeport, CT USA

Posts 2465
David Ames | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 26 2010 6:19 AM

Dave Hooton:

I'm coming in late on this one,

And I am even later but I did not see anything on multi computers updates.

If we could move the update to the other machines then one download could update all of our computers.   I have three, one with both L3 and L4 (vista 7) and one (vista) on L4 and an older XP on L3 

 

Procedure:

[new item in setup: IS THIS THE MAIN COMPUTER?  YES / NO ]

[new item in setup: UPDATE FROM INTERNET OR LOCAL?   INTERNET / LOCAL]

((ONLY ASKED IF NOT THE MAIN COMPUTER))

Log on to MAIN computer and see if there is a download today.

See size of download – do you want to download now? 

[If you do not download it will again ask the next time you log onto the MAIN computer]

After update Move the update file(s) to the other computers [via network or flash drives]

The non main computers would see that an update is needed and would wait for the update files to be moved to them by the user but would let you know that updates were available.

PROBLEM: what if user skipped an update on the other computers?  If missing an update the other computer would KNOW and request permission to update from INTERNET with a note that the manual update was corrupted.

 

Posts 18826
Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 26 2010 10:43 AM

David Ames:

Dave Hooton:

I'm coming in late on this one,

And I am even later but I did not see anything on multi computers updates.

If we could move the update to the other machines then one download could update all of our computers.   I have three, one with both L3 and L4 (vista 7) and one (vista) on L4 and an older XP on L3 

 

Procedure:

[new item in setup: IS THIS THE MAIN COMPUTER?  YES / NO ]

[new item in setup: UPDATE FROM INTERNET OR LOCAL?   INTERNET / LOCAL]

((ONLY ASKED IF NOT THE MAIN COMPUTER))

Log on to MAIN computer and see if there is a download today.

See size of download – do you want to download now? 

[If you do not download it will again ask the next time you log onto the MAIN computer]

After update Move the update file(s) to the other computers [via network or flash drives]

The non main computers would see that an update is needed and would wait for the update files to be moved to them by the user but would let you know that updates were available.

PROBLEM: what if user skipped an update on the other computers?  If missing an update the other computer would KNOW and request permission to update from INTERNET with a note that the manual update was corrupted.

Here are several procedures that users have worked out and documented for quick installation onto multiple computers: http://wiki.logos.com/Quick_Installation_onto_multiple_computers

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David Ames | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 27 2010 7:47 PM

Rosie Perera:

[Here are several procedures that users have worked out and documented for quick installation onto multiple computers: http://wiki.logos.com/Quick_Installation_onto_multiple_computers

Thanks for the link [and everything else]

 

First thing I noticed:

“”THESE PROCEDURES ARE NOT SUPPORTED BY LOGOS SO YOU PERFORM THEM AT YOUR OWN RISK!””

 

The instructions tell how to install the second instance from scratch and update it the first time

 

But the instructions do not have a <<start here if adding to existing instance>> label

[That is where one would start doing the next update and the one after that …]

[spent years doing user documentation – I could guess but the <<start next update here>> label is missing]

 

Also the headings for the three Methods imply that these work for resources but do not STATE that they work for program updates. 

[Unless for each update you reinstall - but the object is for less INTERNET activity - and we might not notice a very small update (one file bug fix for example)]

 

It is a start [or workaround] until Logos adds an official way for both resources and program updates

 

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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 2 2010 4:12 PM

David Ames:
But the instructions do not have a <<start here if adding to existing instance>> label

David Ames:
Also the headings for the three Methods imply that these work for resources but do not STATE that they work for program updates. 

The stated purpose of the procedures is "Quick Installation onto Multiple Computers"; hence the absence of information about other possible uses eg. when 4.2 goes Gold I will use Method 2 to update my laptop 4.1 installation; which most users recognise can be done or they ask for confirmation.

I also skip Step 2 to save re-indexing on my laptop. If I download a few resources to the desktop master I don't mind the laptop doing the small amount of indexing for those, but if bibles are downloaded I may avoid the additional indexing load and just copy the whole index from the desktop! And it is not necessary to copy the \Logos4\Documents folder for these scenarios!

Thus, it is important to keep the methods simple for the stated purpose, recognising that these are unsupported by Logos.

 

Dave
===

Windows 10 & Android 8

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Mark | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 2 2010 5:19 PM

Richard DeRuiter:
1) How big tells me how long the download and indexing may take. This is a work-flow issue. I may decide to delay until later, so I can keep working on my research for now, and take a coffee break to do the download. For small downloads this is not an issue, for large ones it can be.

I agree

Richard DeRuiter:
2) Telling me what is being updated let's me know if I'm downloading any new resources, and which resources are being updated. I always want to know, if I'm getting that pre-pub I was notified about

I agree

Posts 1367
JimTowler | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 4 2010 11:28 PM

I for one, still do not accept the all-or-nothing idea used by Logos4, unlike Logos3.

To me, this suggests not enough design was done at the lower file/metadata/transfer levels of the design.

Maybe Logos5 will get this right. The version4 way of dealing with downloads is boken in my view. A disapointed customer ...

 

Posts 71
Colin Thornby | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 21 2010 3:31 PM

Bob Pritchett:

B) So the only question is, "Do I want this now?" And that questions seems to be 100% about your bandwidth; because if bandwidth is not an issue, then the answer should always be yes. And if bandwidth is an issue, then make the decision based on your bandwidth scheduling. If there's anything so big/important/urgent that you would blow past your bandwidth caps to get it, that information will be readily available in a blog post, forum post, release notes, etc. that you can consult before turning updates on.

I've read this thread with interest. I'm making a return to the forums after a bad experience when I raised some concerns about the Mac alpha  product, and I'm pleasantly surprised to see that a great deal of the heat seems to have trickled out of the forums, to be replaced by some light and more civility.

I wanted to share the perspective of a user from outside North America. I live in Australia, where internet access is getting better, but doesn't approach the sort of speeds, bandwidth or universality you lucky people in North America enjoy.

Until recently, the biggest plan my ISP offered me was 55GB in peak, and 55GB in off-peak time. That has since changed (a lot), but I'd observe that I choose to have the highest speeds available to domestic users, and the highest bandwidth (and pay handsomely for the privilege) - most people don't.

In Australia ISPs commonly manage demand by employing a peak/off-peak quota - peak from about 0700 to 0100, off-peak from about 0100 to 0700. It varies a little from ISP to ISP.

The advantage I see in allowing us to see what will be downloaded and how large it is, is to schedule the download for off-peak times. Now, I don't need to worry about that sort of thing, but I know most Australian users would need to consider it, or risk using all of their quota in a short time (which means shaping, which is generally 33k in Australia).

I've no doubt we in Australia make up a minute portion of the user base for Logos, so our needs have to be balanced against the commercial realities. I just thought I'd share our perspective.

Posts 1931
Donovan R. Palmer | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 23 2011 9:30 PM

Bob Pritchett:
Yes, we can do all this. But it is not simple and, at least how I see it, will result in more process overhead at Logos, making us less efficient, more interruptive messages in the UI, confusing more users, and a lot of telling 98% of our users details they don't care about, since they can't do anything except accept/reject the whole download.

I deeply appreciate the organisational focus at Logos. There is no doubt that this is part of what is making Logos an industry leader.

For many of us, this boils down to simple practicals of how to manage the bandwidth hungry aspect of L4. Working in Africa where connecting to the internet to do large downloads is rare and precious, we need to know whether we should even attempt the download and we need to know if it is worth the effort/trouble or not. It is very difficult (sometimes impossible) and expensive. I think the argument of selective downloads is understandable and I'm not pushing for this. However, just being informed as a user what the update is seems like a reasonable compromise.

No other programme on my Mac is this way. For example, I probably have 750MB of Apple updates waiting to be downloaded. Because of the design of the system, I know what that they are and how big they are. Nothing currently on that list is important enough to be or adds enough stability/functionality to cause me to try to download them. Using other packages, I know that there is a 50MB update for Devonthink and another large update for another Bible Programme. Both are minor fixes for bugs which I have not encountered. I am going to have to leave them until I get back to Europe or North America. L4 is different. I can't decide whether it is important enough or not unless I troll the forums/wiki for information. Even then, because of differences between the Windows and Mac platforms, it is not always clear. I know it is a pain for Logos to provide this kind of information to me, but it is reality that some of us struggle with.

Aside from the dynamics of managing bandwidth in Africa, knowing what is being updated can also help the user get more out of the programme believe it or not. Knowing that a resource has just been updated brings attention to that resource in a new way and at least for me might cause me to dig about the resource as a result. I know this is a small thing, but this can potentially highlight benefits to the user that might otherwise go unnoticed.

Anyhow, I haven't written on this subject for probably six months. I've said my piece and will leave it again for now! L4 is a brilliant software package though, and I'm very happy in general. :)

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