Logos 4 and Large Updates - back to 3 for me!

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This post has 52 Replies | 1 Follower

Posts 59
Bert Barnes | Forum Activity | Posted: Tue, Dec 22 2009 11:04 PM

Just to set the scene I was involved from beta testing days and it seems to me that the update system that caused so many problems in beta times has not been sorted and is still a problem. In South Africa we do not have unlimited download facilities, and internet is a rather expensive commodity, and we are charged per byte if we exceed our monthly quota of 3 gig.

I was away from a permanent download line for about 3 weeks and for that period set my internet to off and thus did no updates.

Yesterday morning I reconnected to the internet. I have till now downloaded about 7 gig of who knows what! I noticed this morning that Logos 4 is now 4.0a.

What are the rest of the downloads?

By the way I am busy with a 471meg one again!!!!!! It started with a 2.2 gig download, then continually every time the program restarts I am informed there is an update available. This is really not enjoyable, as I have to pay for every bite that downloads, I have no control over the process and no way of knowing what is happening on my system.

I have now reached a point of no return in my patience levels (and bye the way financially as well), and am seriously considering if I should not shelve 4 until the update problems have been sorted. Please programmers this is an area that seriously needs attention, we have to have control over what we update. WE NEED A SYSTEM WHERE WE CAN CHOOSE WHAT WE WANT TO UPDATE AND NOT BE FORCED TO ACCEPT EVERYTHING THAT IS QUEUED FOR US TO RECEIVE. I am sure that many of the updates are on resources that I do not necessarily want to spend money updating as I am not interested in all the pictures, and large graphic files! If I had some control I could decide which resources to update and which I would choose to leave. In the USA this may seem to be a non entity with fast download speeds, and unlimited data downloads. But for some of us this is serious, and really does generate a feeling of badwill towards Logos.

While I have been writing this the 471 meg download has completed and I now have a 72.6 meg download. THIS HAS BEEN GOING ON NOW SINCE YESTERDAY, just get a download completed and even before the reindexing starts there is another download. I AM G.V.

Unless there is some or other solution, or someone points out something I am doing wrong it will be time for me to shelve Logos4. SO SAD ! I just cannot afford to spend money on resources as well as these updates. To put this in perspective it has cost me R500.00 already in extra bandwidth costs, and there is NO WAY that I can determine when this circus performance will end and when my spending will come to a stop.

The 72.6 meg download has completed an I have a 471meg download being forced on me, again, so this would now take me to over 8gig.

I am disabling internet and all further updates until I get an answer, as this is now ridiculous.

I AM A VERY DISILLUSIONED AND UNHAPPY LOGOS CUSTOMER!

Bert Barnes

Acer Extensa, 4gig Ram, 160gig 5400 HD, Core 2 duo processor, WinXP

Posts 1931
Donovan R. Palmer | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 23 2009 12:22 AM

BertBarnes:

The 72.6 meg download has completed an I have a 471meg download being forced on me, again, so this would now take me to over 8gig.

I am disabling internet and all further updates until I get an answer, as this is now ridiculous.

I AM A VERY DISILLUSIONED AND UNHAPPY LOGOS CUSTOMER!

I am about to move into a situation where large downloads on the internet are going to be similar to yours. I am not sure how I am going to make it work with L4.  I have wondered if Logos would consider for those who live in rural US locations and in countries where the internet is still very expensive, a cumulative update DVD on a quarterly basis?  I know a number of missionaries and Christians that this would be their only real option to use L4 and keep it updated on a reasonable basis.

 

Posts 27
Josh | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 23 2009 12:38 AM

Bert,

I am in agreement with you that it would be nice to be able to pick and choose what we download.

 I live in the Middle East and we are charged by the bite.  Although our internet must be cheaper than in South Africa I pay about 20$ for 3GB/or one month. My initial download of the study package took 3 days / 2 months of internet usage (Just over 5GB).  

I don’t have auto updates or Internet turned on and I only update when I am at the end of the month and have extra bites left on my account.

All in All I am VERY Pleased with the service and support that we get from LOGOS!

I have an HP Pavilion dv6500 Notebook PC with an Intel Core 2 Duo CPU 2.20 GHz and 2.00 GB Ram and I run Logos fine…
I am a husband, son, and I am an Arabic student. I have a Bachelors of Science in Information Technology.

Posts 1931
Donovan R. Palmer | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 23 2009 12:43 AM

Josh, I love your profile photo!

Posts 59
Bert Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 23 2009 1:26 AM

Josh:

My initial download of the study package took 3 days / 2 months of internet usage (Just over 5GB).  

I don’t have auto updates or Internet turned on and I only update when I am at the end of the month and have extra bites left on my account.

All in All I am VERY Pleased with the service and support that we get from LOGOS!

Josh,

The problem is with the design of the update system, and not the actual concept. I am now on 8 gig. What happens if I am switched off for a while and then  I decide to purchase a resource and there are 8 gigs of downloads queued for me to receive. Do I have to wait for all the 8 gig to first come down, (at the moment it is 8gigs and switched off because I have no idea how many more are coming, because after every download and restart before the re-indexing begins i am informed of another download.

WE NEED TO BE ABLE TO CHOOSE WHAT AND WHEN WE WISH TO DOWNLOAD. I CANNOT JUST ACCEPT FORCED DOWNLOADS NOT HAVING ANY CONTROL WHAT SO EVER.

My system now will now remain not updated, something i am not happy about, and I will not be able to purchase any resources, and this is frustrating. What Logos thought would be a way to stop people worrying about is actually OK in the USA (most places I have just seen not all) but not everywhere where their product is used.

 

Bert Barnes

Acer Extensa, 4gig Ram, 160gig 5400 HD, Core 2 duo processor, WinXP

Posts 59
Bert Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 23 2009 2:36 AM

BertBarnes:
I am now on 8 gig.

I have investigated a bit further and it appears as if the download system is in a loop. There are two downloads that do not seem to register wherever they should one for 471.8meg and the other for 72.6meg. The one will download, restart Logos and before the indexing begins the second will will initiate. Is the problem on my system, Logos' system or somewhere in the cloud?

Has anyone else had a similar problem?

 

 

 

Bert Barnes

Acer Extensa, 4gig Ram, 160gig 5400 HD, Core 2 duo processor, WinXP

Posts 13379
Forum MVP
Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 23 2009 3:22 AM

Bert,

If you can turn logging on and upload your logs we may be able to help. Don't use the CTRL method, as they won't capture all your downloading/indexing.

Posts 2376
Ronald Quick | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 23 2009 3:55 AM

Donovan R. Palmer:
I have wondered if Logos would consider for those who live in rural US locations and in countries where the internet is still very expensive, a cumulative update DVD on a quarterly basis? 

 

I also would like to be able to get the updates through a dvd periodically.  The computer that I use most with L4 is not connected to the internet and never has been.  So I am still running the original version that I received on the installation discs.  I have had no problems with it either.  The only minor inconvenience is getting new resources on it.

I too am very happy with L4.

Posts 59
Bert Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 23 2009 5:16 AM

Mark Barnes:

Bert,

If you can turn logging on and upload your logs we may be able to help.

 

Hi Mark,

I have stopped the downloads and the program is busy re-indexing. I will wait until this is completed and then submit logfiles.

Mark Barnes:
Don't use the CTRL method, as they won't capture all your downloading/indexing.

I am not too sure what you mean by this

Bert Barnes

Acer Extensa, 4gig Ram, 160gig 5400 HD, Core 2 duo processor, WinXP

Posts 13379
Forum MVP
Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 23 2009 5:28 AM

BertBarnes:

Mark Barnes:
Don't use the CTRL method, as they won't capture all your downloading/indexing.

I am not too sure what you mean by this

Sorry, I knew after I posted it, that it wasn't clear. On the page I linked to, there are two ways of turning logging on. First (and very prominently) by holding CTRL when you load Logos. Second (and hidden at the bottom) by running a javascript file. You need the second method.

Posts 59
Bert Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 23 2009 5:32 AM

Mark Barnes:
You need the second method

Thanks Mark will do Smile

Bert Barnes

Acer Extensa, 4gig Ram, 160gig 5400 HD, Core 2 duo processor, WinXP

Posts 98
Henry Finkle | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 23 2009 5:49 AM

Bert, maybe because you have not updated for so long, all the updates are coming at you at once. They are probably "fighting" each other to restart and install. You might want to go to "tools/program settings" and turn off automatic download updates. This way you can wait untill one download finish, restart and let it do its thing and then select the update again if the message pops up.

Posts 406
Fred Greco | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 23 2009 8:57 AM

I'm in an area with unlimited (and relatively fast) downloading, so I am not as affected as others.

Having said that, I don't understand why after so many public complaints (not just on the forums, but everywhere on the internet), Logos doesn't implement a dialog box that shows what is to be updated, and allow for acceptance or ignoring each portion of the update.  I know it must be possible, because the *other Bible program* does this all the time.

I think such a response from Logos would be a huge gesture to many loyal users (even if I don't need it).  The other thing is that it woudl be nice to know what has been updated.  That happened to me the other day, when Logos downloaded (quickly) a smallish (~40MB) update.  It would be very nice to know what I got.

Fred Greco
Senior Pastor, Christ Church PCA, Katy, TX
Windows 10 64-bit; Logos 7.1 SR-2 (Reformed Platinum)

Posts 1692
LogosEmployee
Bob Pritchett | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 23 2009 9:25 AM

I'm sorry, but we're not going to offer "choose your update portions." The best solution is to turn off automatic updates, and get them once in a while on DVD. (We'll be making new DVD's frequently.)

We spend nearly a decade offering super-fine-grained choice of what to download and update, and it led to incredibly difficult technical support. In Logos 4, both the code and data are much more tightly integrated than in the past. If we offered the option of choosing what to update, you might decide that you want the new code, but not the 50 megs of updated reverse interlinear databases. But that new code might be designed to work with a change in the reverse interlinear database format (has already happened at least once since our release), and you'd then be in an unstable situation.

We could theoretically build a massive dependency tree of what version of what requires what version of what other thing (we did that in LDLS 3), but it quickly became unmanageable, and one error in that data starts causing very hard to diagnose crashes.

I'm sorry about the download situation, and the burden it puts on users with limited Internet capacity, but I also want to be up front about how we're dealing with it, so you can plan appropriately.

-- Bob

Posts 73
Bill Bougie | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 23 2009 9:36 AM

Bob,

You may want to consider a DVD update subscription service.  That way users don't have to check the Logos website for updated DVD's.  For a small annual subscription fee, users would receive quarterly DVD updates.

Bill

Posts 81
Daniel R. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 23 2009 8:29 PM

Bob, it seems that you still need to consider one of his points, what if he just wants to buy a resource and download it? Well, I guess I can see the problem, though. I actually saw your reasons coming.

However, why can't you implament something that would state what the download will entail, and let the user decide if it is worth the time/money to download? The user would be able to chose what features to download, he or she can at least be given the option to be online, and to chose, based on what is being upgraded or added, to download.

It just seems that this approach leaves out our brethren in the mission field.

May the Lord bless you and keep you.

Posts 81
Daniel R. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 23 2009 8:30 PM

that should read, "the user WOULDN'T be able to choose which features..."

May the Lord bless you and keep you.

Posts 59
Bert Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 23 2009 8:59 PM

Bob Pritchett:
The best solution is to turn off automatic updates, and get them once in a while on DVD. (We'll be making new DVD's frequently.)

Hi Bob,

Could you please explain to me how the process would work when I purchased a new resource if this situation continues as is? In my studies I sometimes see a reference to a resource, I do a quick check and it is available for download. How would I process the order and download just that resource if I have a long queue of updates waiting for download? The purchase process as well at the moment does not give the choice of a DVD for Logos 4 resources, only download, and I think I remember that this is the way it will remain (but I am not sure about that) We can get a DVD or CD for 3 but not for 4.

 

Bert

Bert Barnes

Acer Extensa, 4gig Ram, 160gig 5400 HD, Core 2 duo processor, WinXP

Posts 59

Mark Barnes:
If you can turn logging on and upload your logs we may be able to help

Hi,

I am enclosing a zip file with logs, from the beginning, after the large download, when the smaller is requested and after the second request again for the large download after the smaller download completed. After the download the software requests a restart and at that stage I quickly tried to copy the log files  as new ones are created with a restart. That is why there are so many different zipped files. I hope this makes sense.

Thanks for trying to help - - -  most appreciated

Bert

Bert Barnes

Acer Extensa, 4gig Ram, 160gig 5400 HD, Core 2 duo processor, WinXP

Posts 25282
Forum MVP
Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 23 2009 9:39 PM

BertBarnes:

WE NEED TO BE ABLE TO CHOOSE WHAT AND WHEN WE WISH TO DOWNLOAD. I CANNOT JUST ACCEPT FORCED DOWNLOADS NOT HAVING ANY CONTROL WHAT SO EVER.

My system now will now remain not updated, something i am not happy about, and I will not be able to purchase any resources, and this is frustrating. What Logos thought would be a way to stop people worrying about is actually OK in the USA (most places I have just seen not all) but not everywhere where their product is used.

Hi Bert,

There has been some problem with getting L4 updates (recently reported in the forum), and I'm not sure if this relates to downloads looping in your case but an 8 GB download has not been required to my knowledge (I got a 2 GB update in early December). Hopefully the logs will reveal something.

I'm in a similar position to yourself, though I now have a larger download limit for an extra $AUD10/month. My strategy is:-

  • Program Settings | Automatically Download Updates = NO
  • Program Settings | Use Internet = YES
  • go to the Forum when I'm told there is a download available

Then I look at the recent download and/or update threads as there are normally enough people who monitor their (unlimited/fast/cheapStick out tongue) downloads to inform others what is in the pipe and how big it is.

Then I can allow the download, or let it go and CANCEL it if the size is too big. I would also Cancel a second download and WAIT a very long time!

I'm currently on dial-up, so I Work offline for the holiday period! Any mess will sort itself out by the time I get back to broadband land.

This is a very indirect strategy but I do have a measure of control with information.

 

 

Dave
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Windows 10 & Android 8

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