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Posts 299
Robert Mullen | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 1 2011 8:52 AM

Good points all. I also feel Logos is an innovator not a follower of trends. I did look closely at Accordance before purchasing Logos and was underwhelmed by the User Interface and confused by the pricing scheme. L4 has consistently changed for the better the way I interact with my Bible and resources. I do think iPad and potentially Android devices are going to be game changers in this space. I belong to a conservative church and the number of people following the service on iPads, iPhones or other devices is growing. This trend is not going to change. I think we are seeing a permanent segmentation of the market that is going to be particularly meaningful to Bible believing Christians. We are a people of the book and the eReader feature of these devices just begs to be expanded. The fact that I can follow along with my pastor's sermon, flip over to a Greek text, and look up the morphological information at a tap is transformational. Unfortunately the process is still kludgy (split screen would help). a little slow (offline is helping), and does not allow markup. I believe these things will come and more. As an application developer I feel for Bob. We have supported multiple platforms too and it is a royal pain. We have a major investment in Windows Mobile that appears to be at risk given the rise of iOS and Android. It is a tough new world and a guy like Bob has to be careful with the investments made. That said, iOS is the clear leader and the competition is quite far in the lead. If it were me I would add a couple resources pretty quickly. iOS development is different but is not that hard (I have done it) and I think a team of 3 should be able to get the APP up to speed pretty quick at which time one developer should be able to keep up.

Posts 225
Jeremy White | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 1 2011 10:10 AM

I'm not sure how this model would work or how well it is working for other firms but it would seem to me you could have a two tiered app - the free, lite version and then the more advanced paid version that could fund further development. Whether you have the lite or paid version would not impact on the books you access - but effectively the lite version would be not much more than an e-reader for your available books whereas the paid version would have much more sophisticated functionality.

I am planning a tablet purchase this year and would be more than happy to pay for a more advanced Logos app.

A song I wrote and recorded : He Who Sits Upon The Throne

Posts 1501
Josh | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 1 2011 10:32 AM

I would be willing to pay for the Logos App to fund its growth. I'm not sure if the free approach was the best idea looking back.

Posts 1692
LogosEmployee
Bob Pritchett | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 1 2011 11:56 AM

Peter Li:
The original request in my original post was to ask you to increase your investment and commitment to mobile platforms. With the digital world moving into diverse platforms (again), I don't think it's wise for you to drop anything.  I don't see any of your platform offerings (Windows, Mac, iOS, Android) that can be dropped.

I agree, and we don't plan to drop any platform. We plan to expand platform support.

Peter Li:
I wasn't sure if this was an attempt at humor or a complaint,

I was trying to be funny. :-)

Peter Li:
it's hard not to notice the advances made by the competition while the Logos iOS app is SO FAR BEHIND and still lacking some of the most basic features expected of a Bible study app -- note taking, highlighting, split windows, copy and paste, offline search, sync with desktop app, etc.

I disagree with the assessment that we're behind: for over a year we've offered 4,000+ books on mobile -- way ahead of any mobile competitors. We also offered reverse interlinear lookup, Passage Guide, Bible Word Study Guide, and Text Comparison. I think that's way out in front. (I think it was just in the last month that OliveTree made a big leap, and the Accordance app just shipped. Who are we so far behind?)

I'm guessing, though, that this is another case of "you're way behind in the features _I_ want." <smile> Which is, of course, a completely legitimate complaint.

Note-taking, highlighting, copy and paste, offline search: These are really all related. They all require the full book offline (or "character count compatibility" with the desktop books, which would be harder). It's a bit more difficult for us, since we're guessing you want those notes and highlights to work the same on mobile and desktop (a constraint mobile-only products don't have). The good news is, v1.5 of our iOS app -- just released weeks ago -- puts our desktop display engine on iOS devices. This enables all these things at once, though we still have some code to write. (We're re-writing our sync framework -- which notes and highlights will require -- to be more efficient and use less bandwidth, as well as to be organized differently, to fit mobile devices. Again, a constraint that other products don't have, but which will pay off in better functionality. They don't have a desktop version.)

Split-windows: In beta, coming soon.

Sync with desktop app: We already do this for your library and reading plans and favorites; coming soon for notes, highlights, etc. as described above.

Peter Li:
P.S. BTW, seriously Bob, if it's been hard to focus on so many different platforms (at least that's the impression I'm getting from your post), have you considered partnering with or even acquiring a dedicated mobile software vendor to gain more progress and velocity on mobile?

Sure sounds easy, doesn't it? Except the problem isn't getting any old notes or highlighting on the iPhone. We could do that easily. The problem is getting YOUR notes and highlighting -- the ones in your desktop software, with rich-text formatting, complicated custom highlighter styles with inline graphics, etc. -- on the iPhone, and in complete synchronization, so that changes on one device show up on the other.

Acquiring another mobile package would make this a big mess; their existing note system wouldn't be compatible with our notes, the way they calculate positions in ebooks wouldn't match how the desktop does, their display engine probably doesn't do triple-wavy-line underlining like our highlighting system, etc. And we'd probably be expected not only to make it match our desktop, but to somehow preserve and migrate their existing users' data to our system without losing or breaking anything.

Simple example: Most notes on ebooks/mobile devices are plaintext. If you have a desktop note with lots of rich-text formatting, and open it on the iPhone, do we show it as plain text or rich-text? Do we put a rich-text toolbar onto the iPhone and write a whole new editor (since the iPhone doesn't have built-in rich-text editor like desktop OS's do). That's a big job. So we could show your note in plain text, though it's rich-text underneath. But then what happens if you edit it on the iPhone? Does the newer plain text version overwrite the rich-text version? Do we try to map, character by character, your plain text edits into the rich-text data stream? Again, problems we can solve, but time-consuming...

 

Fundamentally, I get the point: the world's moving mobile, and many of our users are switching to mobile as a "primary" platform. And theoretically we can deliver a strong, free mobile engine the way we deliver a strong, free desktop engine. But A) that takes time, B) it's very recent, and you who care are on the leading edge -- the "people who pay the bills" aren't all there yet.

And C), i'm guessing that despite the anxiousness to get a solution soon, long-term you'll be glad we did it right. We're working on it. :-)

-- Bob

Posts 1351
PL | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 1 2011 12:58 PM

Dear Bob,

As always, thanks for your prompt and thoughtful response.

I certainly wasn't trying to minimize or trivialize the challenges you and your company face.  It is a very complex and rapidly-changing digital world out there, and I thank you for doing so much to try to stay ahead.

Just one point of clarification -- when I said the Logos iOS app was "far behind", I was referring to the lack of what I'd consider some "basic" features like notes, highlighting, split windows, offline search, etc, that even most of the free alternatives offer.  I'm glad to hear that most of these missing features are forthcoming soon.

I'll be more patient and be thankful for what Logos already does offer today.

Thanks again, and may God bless you and the Logos team!

Peter

Posts 5
Nick Clark | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 1 2011 2:03 PM

Bob,

Three thoughts from your reply:

1. AWSOME!

2. I am thrilled to see that you have obviously listened to your customers as it appears that you are working on most of the "_I_ want" features that have been mentioned and which I personally consider to be necessary before It will fit the use cases I hope it will fill.

3. I, for one, am glad that you are not taking the fast road. Not that I don't want to see this stuff soon, but because I would be even more frustrated if you rushed to get, say, highlighing out, but only allowed certain types of highlights or underlining or it didn't sync with what I did that morning on my PC or Mac. I'm glad to see that you are determined to do it the right way, not just so you can say I have feature x or y.

I am in the younger crowd ( we'll just say the 'under 30' crowd :) ) that has learned to use electronics to replace just about everything. Everything that is except our physical Bible (not that I would ever not own a physical copy somewhere in my home). Logos has put that possibility so close I can almost taste it. With the dawn of tablets like the IPad and soon to come Android tablets, the need to carry multiple books to a group study session or to church has vanished; provided companies like Logos furnish the software.

You have painted a very bright future for us, thank you and may God continue to bless your efforts.

Posts 13379
Forum MVP
Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 1 2011 4:28 PM

Bob Pritchett:
We're re-writing our sync framework -- which notes and highlights will require -- to be more efficient and use less bandwidth, as well as to be organized differently, to fit mobile devices.

This is great news. Syncing entire note files instead of individual notes is a big problem on the desktop.

Bob Pritchett:
Fundamentally, I get the point

I never doubted it. But thanks for outlining the challenges. You've convinced me it's worth waiting (and I'm sure you'll forgive me if I occasionally open Bible Reader in the meantime!).

Posts 2936
Forum MVP
Jacob Hantla | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 2 2011 3:12 PM

Bob Pritchett:

he good news is, v1.5 of our iOS app -- just released weeks ago -- puts our desktop display engine on iOS devices.

Thank you, Bob. I'm glad you're taking the time to do it right.

You had made a comment on your previous post that mobile wasn't a revenue source. I know that this won't be shown in your reports, but I'll tell you that the last 3 completely new users to Logos that I helped through the process of understanding the platform and making purchasing decisions (Scholars x2, Gold x1) and at least 4 more who will be making purchases of Scholars library+ in the next 2 months are making the jump BECAUSE of mobile. Mobile has broken Logos into the mainstream. It is no longer for nerdy guys like me who can sit a their desk reading on my computer screen for 12 hours at a session...

I am so glad that you are making th necessary investment. Thank you.

Jacob Hantla
Pastor/Elder, Grace Bible Church
gbcaz.org

Posts 3
Samuel peinado | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jan 3 2011 12:24 AM

I bought logos for mac because of the logos app on my iphone. I'd still be buying used hard cover books from the used book store if not for the logos iphone app.

The logos iphone app, even if kept free, would become a great source of revenue if it were easier to buy books/resources from withing the app. I realize this is yet another item on an already daunting request list, but please give users like me access to your products from withing the logos app. Sure, i won't be buying the scholers edition logos package, but i gaurantee that I'll find a reference that I need and buy it. I'm confident the majority of logos app users would as well. If only half the people that use the logos app buy just a $10 dollar book i believe that would add up to a decent chunk of change. I don't have any numbers to back this up, but so many people at my church use the app, or have asked to borrow the book I got such and such quote from, that I'd put money on my guess if i were a betting man.

Keep up the great work. Logos on iphone, and now ipad, have changed the way i think about the Bible. I left my ipad at a friends house two weeks ago and felt totaly lost without instant access to logos. Logos' app is the reason I pay AT&T for 3G every month. IMHO both Apple and AT&T should thank Logos for helping them make disgusting amounts of money.

Posts 2738
Kevin A. Purcell | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jan 4 2011 8:13 AM

Bob Pritchett:
I disagree with the assessment that we're behind: for over a year we've offered 4,000+ books on mobile -- way ahead of any mobile competitors. We also offered reverse interlinear lookup, Passage Guide, Bible Word Study Guide, and Text Comparison. I think that's way out in front. (I think it was just in the last month that OliveTree made a big leap, and the Accordance app just shipped. Who are we so far behind?)

You are right Bob. The features I want are not 4,000 books. I love the PG, WBS Guide. But what I bet most people use a mobile Bible app for is searching, note taking and highlighting. I would bet that if polled, those features would trump the others by double percentage points.

The good news is you guys are working on it and I have full faith and confidence that David Dunkin will be sending me not soon saying one or all of them are included. Just keep beating him and making him work 22 hours a day until it happens. <g>

Posts 13379
Forum MVP
Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jan 4 2011 11:19 AM

Samuel peinado:
The logos iphone app, even if kept free, would become a great source of revenue if it were easier to buy books/resources from withing the app.

Amen. This is another area where Olivetree perform well, with the ability to buy resources both through the AppStore and their own site.

Posts 35
Erik | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jan 4 2011 12:18 PM

i just notice Logos is hiring iPhone/android developers I guess that's good news

Posts 45
John A. Murphy, Jr. | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 4 2011 7:50 PM

Bob,

We appreciate your dilemma.  We know that you will never please all of us, and if you were trying to please just one segment you'd end up with a product that was only good for them.  So, here are a couple of my praises:

1) You can turn on headers/footers in the mobile app (thus giving me the page number.

2) That I can highlight in LOGOS in my resources.

3)  I can see the page numbers in LOGOS on my computer (something that doesn't happen in my Kindle reading - I just get a locational reference number).

The challenge you have is that you've created such an amazing product in LOGOS that people don't want to be separated from it.  I for one have read several books in my library with the mobile app and am glad that I was able to do so.  The books available in my library were my justification for buying my iPad.  As you continue to glean the feedback I'm sure that more and more features will come to both platforms, and I look forward to seeing them.  In the mean time, I praise God that I no longer sit with 10-20 books open scattered around my desk while doing biblical research.

As a consumer I know that when something is easy to use and so convenient, I often forget how difficult it was to make it that way.  Thanks for all your hard work.Big Smile

Blessings to you and you're entire staff!

Pastor John Murphy

Posts 490
R. Mansfield | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Feb 7 2011 8:00 PM

John A. Murphy, Jr.:

3)  I can see the page numbers in LOGOS on my computer (something that doesn't happen in my Kindle reading - I just get a locational reference number).

 

Speaking of which, Amazon has released Kindle beta 3.1 (3rd generation Kindle device only right now) that includes page numbers. Now, both the page number and location numbers appear at the bottom of the screen. 

RMansfield@mac.com
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facebook.com/rmansfield

Posts 1880
Philana Crouch | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 10 2011 11:31 AM

Kevin A. Purcell:

Bob Pritchett:
I disagree with the assessment that we're behind: for over a year we've offered 4,000+ books on mobile -- way ahead of any mobile competitors. We also offered reverse interlinear lookup, Passage Guide, Bible Word Study Guide, and Text Comparison. I think that's way out in front. (I think it was just in the last month that OliveTree made a big leap, and the Accordance app just shipped. Who are we so far behind?)

You are right Bob. The features I want are not 4,000 books. I love the PG, WBS Guide. But what I bet most people use a mobile Bible app for is searching, note taking and highlighting. I would bet that if polled, those features would trump the others by double percentage points.

I also want the searching, highlighting ect. but I also want the 4,000 books. I do a lot of Bible study for my work, and having it available on the my iPad is a major use. I use it everyday, and often use my library. One thing that I love is the kind of resources you can have access to. It has also saved me money, I wanted to have Greek and Hebrew Bibles on my iPad (they are expensive) now I don't have to, I just download on the several I have in my Logos library. I can access lexicons, which when I teach use all the time.

I think both the "basic features" and the other are possible. I like how Logos is coming along.

Perhaps at the very least we can have copy and paste soon, I don't see how this would be hard, but I admit I am not a programer. I sometimes put presentation together on Keynote for iPad, and would like to add quotes, having the page reference already displayed really helps.

Keep up the good work!

Philana Crouch

 

Posts 1351
PL | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 10 2011 12:44 PM

Philana Crouch:
Perhaps at the very least we can have copy and paste soon, I don't see how this would be hard, but I admit I am not a programer.

I can't speak for Logos, but I believe this one might not be technically hard, but getting the various copyright holders to agree to adding copy-and-paste functionality might be a challenge.

Peter

Posts 2738
Kevin A. Purcell | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Feb 14 2011 6:59 AM

I would be that copyright is not the issue but technical hurdles is. They just updated the display engine of the app so that such a capability will become possible soon, along with highlighting and note taking. I believe we will see it soon.

Posts 80
Bruce Lundquist | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 17 2011 7:19 PM

Bob Pritchett:

And C), i'm guessing that despite the anxiousness to get a solution soon, long-term you'll be glad we did it right. We're working on it. :-)

-- Bob

Bob,

I just bought a Verizon iPhone and the ONLY reason I did was to put Logos on it. If not for that I would have gone with something else.  It did not diappoint!  I did wonder about some of the features I'm used to with my PC version, but I can definately wait. 

No whipping the developers please! Big Smile They are amazing.  Logos 4 is testimony to their diligence and hard work.  Thank you for an excellent product. Both desktop and iPhone. I can wait for notes and highlights.

Blessings to you and your staff.

Apple MacBook Pro 16G macOS Mojave version 10.14.4 Beta
Logos Bible Software 8.3 - 8.3.0.0034
http://fcov.org (Faith Church of the Valley)

Posts 20
Thornell | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 18 2011 3:42 AM

It's a different world now, Logos needs to flow with the technology advances or they may find that the mobile bible software market has passed them by. Personally I have spent thousands on Logos over the past 20 or so years, building my library, upgrading with each new release. I want to be able to access my investment in Logos on what ever mobile device I choose to use. I am very disappointed that you would gripe about expanding your offerings to androids or window devices. If you intend to win the mobile bible app war, I don't think Logos has any options, tablets are going to rule the day. I believe that android devices will sell just as briskly as apple products. The apps that work the best and offer the best resources on both platforms will win, I believe Logos has the best content-just develop the apps to put it on devices that are not built by apple. Logos can do this. Yes

Posts 22279
Forum MVP
Graham Criddle | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 18 2011 4:37 AM

Hi Thornell

From Bob's post above - http://community.logos.com/forums/p/27896/207975.aspx#207975 - they clearly understand that they need to address the mobile market - they just want to get it right.

I don't see that they are griping about doing this - I do think they will be careful about assessing which mobile devices to support as we have seen in the initial adoption for Apple and the work going on to deliver Android capability

Graham

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