I GIVE UP

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This post has 74 Replies | 5 Followers

Posts 23
Patrick Goldman | Forum Activity | Posted: Tue, Dec 28 2010 1:26 PM

Four days lost, with the help of a lot of good people here on the Logos forum. Contact with the staff and technician taking over the control of the machine but not understanding the problem, indexed it again, but in vain. I think the Logos conceivers will have some more  work if they want to conquer the Mac public.

Let's hope I will finally get an answer for the refund.

Thanks to those who tried to help..

Prof Goldman

Old Testament

Unviersity of Fribourg

Editorial Board of the Bibiia Hebraica 

Posts 1861
LogosEmployee
Tom Philpot (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 28 2010 1:55 PM

Prof Goldman,

I think there may have been some issue with your index. You should have gotten search hits for your prior searches. If you can send me your diagnostic logs, I can take a look and see if there were any issues.

You will find a link here:http://community.logos.com/forums/t/25043.aspx for a utility which can compress your Log files suitably for posting to the forums.

Mobile Development Team Lead

Posts 23
Patrick Goldman | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 28 2010 3:23 PM

Thank you for the proposal. Here is the log archive. I just dragged it into this field. 

file:///Users/metoo/Desktop/LogosLogs%20Me%20Too%2020101229-001907.gz

 

Not sure this is the right thing to do, so I also use the join function:

 

7345.LogosLogs Me Too 20101229-001907.gz

 

Hope this will help.

 

Y. Goldman

Posts 1861
LogosEmployee
Tom Philpot (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 28 2010 3:45 PM

That's exactly what I needed.

 It looks like your library finished indexing at 21:56:31 your time. I can also see that your indexes had never fully finished so that would explain why you got no hits. 

I wonder if you restarted L4 and tried to run a Basic search now for Peace in your Entire Library and see if you get hits. Similarly, if you try John Fidel's suggestion for searching original languages, you'll probably get hits now too.

 

 

Mobile Development Team Lead

Posts 23
Patrick Goldman | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 29 2010 5:07 AM

Thank you for your message. Yes, the problem you raise is not solved, i.e.: why was the indexing never finished?

The one you mention  was the last indexing initiated by your technician, which took roughly  around 2 hours yesterday night. The first indexing had been given the whole night and was normally finisghed. 

The basic search for peace was done without any problem, but this is not my main interest in Logos 4 "Original Language" package. I still do not get any result when entering Hebrew or Greek words searched in the Bible or Morph sections.

Anyway thank you very much for the try.

Sincerely,

Y. Goldman

Posts 3810
spitzerpl | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 29 2010 5:42 AM

Patrick,

From all I can see you have been extremely patient throughout this process and for that I would like to say thank you. Should you desire not to continue trouble shooting I would certainly understand, and I'm assuming that the help you have received thus far has gone over the "obvious" stuff so feel free to brush past my comment if you desire.

However I am curious as to what happens when your right click on a word in the ESV (or any interlinear translation or morphed Greek, Hebrew Text), selected the Lemma on the RIGHT and the Morph Search on the Left. I did this and initially got no results. Then I realized my range defaulted to my last search range (hate it, if I select from the right click menu, I want a search of the entire resource). For some reason every time I do a new search Judges is set to the range, then I change it to what I actually want and the next time I do a search Judges is usually selected. also, be sure the proper morphology is selected.

Posts 23
Patrick Goldman | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 29 2010 12:46 PM

Dear Philip,

Thank you for the informations. I finally decided to erase entirely the software and asked for a refund. But I did not want to leave you without thanks for helping. This software showed to be much too complex for a man like me not willing to enter in subtle processes to search the Bible. The things escaped out my hands any time I searched for something. Though it is a little bit more austere and less rich in access to the English tools in particular, I am rather happy with Accordance finally. 

All best wishes to you in the study of the Word of God..

Yohanan

Posts 3810
spitzerpl | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 29 2010 12:52 PM

Patrick Goldman:

Dear Philip,

Thank you for the informations. I finally decided to erase entirely the software and asked for a refund. But I did not want to leave you without thanks for helping. This software showed to be much too complex for a man like me not willing to enter in subtle processes to search the Bible. The things escaped out my hands any time I searched for something. Though it is a little bit more austere and less rich in access to the English tools in particular, I am rather happy with Accordance finally. 

All best wishes to you in the study of the Word of God..

Yohanan

What matters is not the funnel that's used, but the substance being funneled and the object being funneled into. May God richly bless your future studies.

Posts 322
Rene Atchley | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 29 2010 12:54 PM

Hmm...interesting post.

Posts 3810
spitzerpl | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 29 2010 1:02 PM

Rene Atchley:

Hmm...interesting post.

But let me add...everyone should give the Logos funnel a decent try :-)

Posts 23
Patrick Goldman | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 30 2010 2:23 AM

Philip,

I do agree about the quality of what we learn in the Word of God and thank you for the blessings.

Regarding the "decent try" one "SHOULD" give to Logos:

1. I hope mine was one, with the help of people on the forum and a technician of Logos directly on my machine, with no result. This rich software has not been primarily written for the Mac, which could explain the technical difficulties I met with.

2. Being an old Mac user I confess that I might be a "spoiled child" of Apple's clarity not willing to loose too much time unraveling the complexities of a program. On Mac and its software in general things tend to be smooth and easy, “user friendly” (25 years of experience here). But I am not a sectarian…

Blessings to you all.  

Posts 2698
DominicM | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 30 2010 2:50 AM

Philip Spitzer:

But let me add...everyone should give the Logos funnel a decent try :-)

Oops was gonna ask about the payment plan, I read it as: "everyone should give the Logos funeral a decent try :-)"

problem is its a one shot deal...Embarrassed

Never Deprive Anyone of Hope.. It Might Be ALL They Have

Posts 218
Dennis Miller | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 30 2010 4:29 AM

Patrick Goldman:

On Mac and its software in general things tend to be smooth and easy, “user friendly” (25 years of experience here).

Don't forget Fast, Stable and Usable. I wonder if I could get a refund on everything I've purchased to work with Logos 4 since upgrading to it over a year ago?

Posts 87
Ray D | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 30 2010 6:54 AM

Dennis Miller:

Patrick Goldman:

On Mac and its software in general things tend to be smooth and easy, “user friendly” (25 years of experience here).

Don't forget Fast, Stable and Usable. I wonder if I could get a refund on everything I've purchased to work with Logos 4 since upgrading to it over a year ago?

I just made the switch to the other "built from the ground up" Mac software and am delighted. The gave me a great deal, but I still could only afford original language tools and some resources. Plan to invest more in the coming year. I am however very sad that I have to lay out $$$ for stuff that I already have in Logos Wink. I like you Dennis am wondering if I can get a "full" refund of all the resources that I have purchased over the last year or so. I began with Logo4 on Windows shortly after it release and was appalled to find out that basic functions didn't work. Yet I stuck with it. So when I switched to a Mac around the same time Logos 4 Mac released a couple months back. I thought, I guess I can live without the features once again. But never did I expect the software to be so soooo slow. Anyway... I think I am going to contact Logos and ask for a refund so that I can go buy all the other resources I need on the other software.

Posts 87
Ray D | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 30 2010 7:01 AM

Philip Spitzer:

But let me add...everyone should give the Logos funnel a decent try :-)

I appreciate your heart Phillip and want you to know that I gave Logos the last year and change. Yet when I switched to Logos4 Mac a couple months ago, I quickly realized that the performance concerns were great enough that it was affecting my work flow and therefore adversely affecting my sermon prep. So that's why I finally threw up the white flag and declared defeat yesterday and switched. 

 

Posts 248
Daniel Arnott | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 1 2011 11:31 AM

What I would like to know from the developers is this:

1) Do you think it is ethically wrong to release a product that is not complete, is not optimised and quite frankly fool people into buying it when you know full well that it is riddled with bugs?

2) Do you think it is fair that people are paying you hundreds and hundreds of dollars for an unfinished beta product that we are effectively testers for?

3) Will you offer mac users any sort of discounts/compensation for the problems they have had over the past few months (or at least since the "Gold" release)?

 

I bought your product over a year ago. Initially I bought Logos 3 and was told that there was a mac version. The very next day Logos 4 came out and I was upgraded. Of course that is when all the problems started. I have never spent so much time on a companies website forum looking for ways to tweak software, increase spec etc.. etc... Having spent so much money on this product I am still extremely frustrated and angry that a Christian organisation can quite happily take your money and provide a sub standard, unfinished product. Your sales staff are also extremely happy to take my money and process my payment as soon as I send them an email. Again I find this pushy and unnecessary.

I am getting a little fed up of waiting for the Mac version to be complete because I can see the "potential" of the product. You need to sort this software out once and for all and stop treating us a testers.

Daniel

 

 

Posts 8893
fgh | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 1 2011 11:55 AM

Daniel Arnott:
What I would like to know from the developers is this

You're asking the wrong people. The developers don't make these kinds of decisions. They're just employees following orders. Would you like to be blamed for your boss' decisions? I suggest a mail to bob at logos dot com. He's the one that does do these decisions.

"The Christian way of life isn't so much an assignment to be performed, as a gift to be received."  Wilfrid Stinissen

Mac Pro OS 10.9.

Posts 1692
LogosEmployee
Bob Pritchett | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 1 2011 12:41 PM

Daniel,

I'm sorry you are frustrated by the Mac release.

In the forums (and on our blog) you'll find long, detailed explanations of why we chose to release Logos 4 (for both Windows and Mac) when we did. You'll also find, on our web site and everywhere we discussed the products, clear and detailed explanations of the deficiencies of each release and our plans for when we'd fix them.

We also offer (and always have) an unconditional money-back guarantee.

To save you the research, though, I'll re-summarize quickly: We had more work we wanted to do on both products, but felt they were already easier to use and more powerful than the existing products we were then shipping, so we A) released them with full disclosure of the limitations, and a promise to continually upgrade them at no cost (which we have done, repeatedly), B) we ensured that the existing products could run side-by-side, so no one was forced to upgrade to the new products before they felt they were ready, and no one was deprived of previously available features, and C) we continued to maintain our money-back guarantee.

(We have also stated clearly that we're designing for the future, not the past, and that the software requires a very recent machine to perform well. It's frustrating to read reviewers who say "it performs poorly on my Mac, which is only a few years old..." While it's not the choice every company makes, we do choose to implement power hungry features, anticipating that our platform will have a 5-8 year life, and knowing computing power doubles every 18 months. We believe it's a long-term benefit for the users, who appreciate that functionality. It just makes us not the right solution for the person with the 4 year old machine the first year we ship a new platform.)

The Windows version of Logos 4 is in excellent shape, has received (and is still receiving) performance improvements, now has "better than before" implementations of most "missing featuress" (printing, exporting, sentence diagramming, etc.). 

The Mac version was behind -- fully disclosed a year ago -- but has just about caught up on feature parity, which users told us was the top priority. We are finishing the release of 4.2a on both platforms (it's in beta now), which delivers most of the parity and even some key optimizations. Now that we have gotten there, we are (as promised, and as planned) beginning an optimization phase to tune performance on the Mac.

1) is it ethically wrong? No, I don't believe so, for the reasons above. We've been up-front about the situation all along the way, and we aren't taking (or keeping) the money of any unsatisfied customers. I think it's inaccurate to says we "fool[ed]people into buying it."

2) Is it fair people pay hundreds and hundreds...? Yes. It's a voluntary transaction, with all the relevant details disclosed in advance, and you can un-do the transaction at your option. What's more fair than that?

3) Will we offer discounts/compensation, etc.? Sure. Email me at bob@logos.com with what you think is appropriate and we'll come to an agreement. I don't want any unhappy customers, and I can't sleep at night knowing you feel cheated. (I'm not being facetious -- my personal well-being really is tied to knowing that our customers are satisfied. Obviously I can't bend time -- if making you happy requires a perfect Mac product by 11 pm, I can't do that. But I can make sure I'm not holding your money if you aren't at least satisfied with what you have, or with our plan to get something better to you as soon as we can.)

 

In defense of the developers: It's not their fault. It's all my fault.

My developers are in a constant state of frustration as I push them to ship things before they are perfect. We need each other; they push for a perfect, bug-free, performant product, and I push for something to ship so they can be paid and feed their families.

I can assure you it's all my fault. I can also assure you that if we held to the standard requested, Logos 4 still wouldn't have shipped. Nor would it be shipping soon, because even though we're now just catching up to what some users consider "the minimum product we should have shipped," we're doing that with the much larger team and resources that shipping 14 months ago afforded us. If we'd held out for a "perfect product," I can guarantee that by now we would not have hired the 60+ people who've joined us since Logos 4 shipped and we would most likely have laid off part of our company, resulting in poorer service, slower development, low morale, and a possible exodus of key talent.

I hope this doesn't come across too harshly; your criticisms and frustrations are valid, and I take responsibility for not delivering what you wanted. (And I apologize if we failed to communicate the state of things clearly enough.) I hope you'll appreciate, though, my explanation. It's not intended as an excuse, but rather as a way to let you see some of the complicated choices we have to make, and why companies sometimes do things that seem like bad choices to us consumers on the outside.

(I, for example, wonder why they keep shipping tiny changes to a car each model year instead of buckling down and delivering the flying car users want. :-) Or at least (more reasonably), the electric car with gasoline-powered range and performance that charges in ten minutes and costs less. But I'm guessing it's a similar answer: they'd go out of business without those "new chrome, new radio!" model year changes during the 10+ years it will take to deliver the car I really want. And those intermediate releases may waste time and make it 11 years to get what I want, but the extra year is better than the car company going out of business.)

Thanks for your patience,

-- Bob

 

Posts 248
Daniel Arnott | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 1 2011 12:59 PM

Hi Bob

Firstly...thanks

I do appreciate you taking the time to respond. I am a "believer" in the product and thanks to your explanation can understand better the issues you have to weigh up each day. My frustration is really because I can see the potential and just want to use it!! It promises so much but rarely delivers a smooth ride. I look forward to the upcoming optimization developments.

I will consider your offer and email you in due course. I am not looking for a refund as your product, I believe will be the best in the market. 

I'm glad you have heard my concerns. To do something positive about it, I will make sure that you and the team are in my prayers over the coming months.

Thanks

Daniel

Posts 15805
Forum MVP
Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 1 2011 2:45 PM

Likewise Thankful for Bob's comments and insights Cool  Also praying for Logos, including user community while always rejoicing in Logos - God's Words.

Daniel Arnott:
... It promises so much but rarely delivers a smooth ride. ...

Smooth depends on usage pattern(s) and computer hardware - for smoother responses, currently chose to limit use of some Logos 4 features (e.g. custom guides, amount of visual filters, notes, etc) - picked up tips from this forum and Logos blog => http://blog.logos.com/archives/2010/02/logos_4_collapse_sections_in_guides.html

At Consumer Electronics Show (CES) in few days, anticipating Intel Sandy Bridge processor availability - not know Apple refresh plans - currently Mac Book Air only model refreshed since July 2010 => http://buyersguide.macrumors.com/ (reading rumors about several refreshes this year).

Personally dreaming of 27" iMac with 3.4 GHz Quad Core i7 (at least 21 % faster) along with substantially faster disk upgrade possibilities: e.g. RAID 0 stripe set with 3 SSD's -OR- 2 SSD's plus e-SATA connected large external storage plus faster graphics for noticeably snappier Logos 4 performance, knowing some Logos 4 actions will still not be instantaneous - e.g. indexing entire library.

Observation: SSD RAID 0 benchmarks using 2010 iMac => http://eshop.macsales.com/shop/turnkey/iMac_2010_27/benchmarks/ 

Keep Smiling Smile

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