Bad to require credit card for free books/downloads.

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Michael B | Forum Activity | Posted: Fri, Mar 4 2011 8:33 PM

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It is disappointing that Logos requires entry of credit card information in order to download free books (http://wiki.logos.com/Free_Logos_Books).  This is not necessary as it is possible to download the Libronix DLS basic software without using a credit card.  Also looking at an example of another company, Thomas Nelson provides eBible with several free Libronix resources for download and they don’t require a credit card. 

 

As a consumer it is frustrating when a company wants my credit card information when they are not going to charge anything to it.  Logos does not need my credit card information unless I purchase something that I need to pay for.  It is bad business practice to take credit card information when it is not needed.  As a consumer it is important to protect credit card information; and one part of this is not giving out credit card information when it is not needed.  Logos does not need a credit card in order to provide free downloads. 

 

This practice is unethical and should be illegal.  I will be reporting a complaint to the Better Business Bureau.  Please reconsider and provide the “Free Books” without requiring  credit card details. Michael B.

Posts 347
Mitch Davis | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Mar 4 2011 8:38 PM

Michael,

If someone had a complaint against you (a person or, as in this case, a company) would you prefer they speak to you before going elsewhere to "complain"? I'd like to think you'd speak to someone at Logos to - at the very least - hear their explanation. It seems like an ethical courtesy on your part. If you're not satisfied with their answer then you'd at least have made an effort before going to the BBB.

Mitch

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Mar 4 2011 8:46 PM

Michael, welcome to the Logos forums where you may ask and answer questions regarding the use of Logos software.  The participants are fellow users with a handful of exceptions for tracking software bugs etc. If you have complaints about the business practices of Logos, it is more effective to send them to the company rather than posting on the user forums.

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Michael B | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Mar 4 2011 8:54 PM

Mitch,

I was just at the BBB site and decided against filing a complaint.  Was about to edit my original post but since you already responded decided to leave it so people knew what you were talking about.  Ok, so I repent of the BBB thing, at least for now. Also I am in email contact with Logos about this but also wanted to put it on the forum because figured others have the same complaint and maybe more voices will help Logos reconsider.

Michael B.

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Mitch Davis | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Mar 4 2011 9:10 PM

Michael,

Your reaction is VERY MUCH appreciated and serves as a wonderful example to all.

Have a blessed night,
Mitch 

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Mar 4 2011 9:13 PM

Michael Bon:
It is bad business practice to take credit card information when it is not needed

I do not work for Logos so my post is just my own musings.

I am aware of several reasons Logos may need a credit card to complete a free transaction. It could be related to the transaction software. It could be related to licensing issues of the free book. (Many contracts start off with "for value received" because in theory, an exchange must take place to create a contract.) It could be related to future marketing strategies.   Like I said, I have no idea why, but it is not unethical or illegal. It is a common practice. (Even Amazon does it for free transactions.)

You may be able to call Customer Service and request the free downloads be placed in your account without using a credit card. I know a PayPal card or bank debit card will also do.  Cheers.

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Michael B | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 8 2011 8:12 PM

Thank you Matthew for suggesting I ask Customer Service to put the downloads in my account.  Unfortunately they responded in order to get the free books offered by Logos I have to enter a credit card.  I have no intention of giving Logos my credit card number for something that is free.  This damages trust between Logos and me, the customer, making me reluctant to do any business with them in the future.  I am happy to continue using the resources that I already have in Libronix and will continue to use another program for my main bible study. 

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 8 2011 8:46 PM

Michael Bon:
Unfortunately they responded in order to get the free books offered by Logos I have to enter a credit card.  I have no intention of giving Logos my credit card number for something that is free. 

I'm sorry they could not accommodate your needs. I have one more idea that might work, but I am not sure:

Would it be possible to buy one of those "pre-paid VISA cash cards?"    I don't know how little you can load on it but your exposure to unauthorized charges would be limited to whatever amount you put on it.

It is just an idea.

It would be really nice if Logos would set up some kind of savings account where we could deposit funds by check to cover upcoming Pre-Pubs and other product purchases. It has been suggested before.

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Wes Saad | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 8 2011 9:43 PM

Michael Bon:
This damages trust between Logos and me, the customer, making me reluctant to do any business with them in the future.

I must confess that this puzzles me. You won't give them CC info, which implies you do not have an account already and have not made purchases so you are not a customer. The Libronix resources you already have were free, received from Thomas Nelson. The resources you were trying to get from Logos were free resources. At what point might you become a paying customer? And if you were to purchase resources, that would require entering CC info. If you would be willing to trust Logos with your info then, why not now?

From where I stand there is nothing questionable or unethical about Logos asking for CC info. It's a simple way to verify that the person registering is, in fact, a person, and it helps to confirm the identity of the person opening the account. To say you don't like it is fine. To accuse Logos of wrongdoing is a bit over the top. To say this threatens future business is a bit meaningless when there's no indication of business to begin with.

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 8 2011 10:20 PM

Chris Roberts:
I must confess that this puzzles me.

Chris, I have learned through extensive discussion in other threads about privacy issues that I don't need to understand why others wish to do things their particular way. You made a few good points for Michael but I am sure Michael has his own reasons.  I don't need to know them and will be happy to remain confused and in the dark on the matter. Cool

I was only trying to meet his needs in any way I can.

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MJD | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 8 2011 10:25 PM

Sorry, but I don't see why you are angry?  I don't agree with you, and if you don't want to give them your credit card info, fine they won't give you the downloads....

Mike

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Mar 9 2011 9:31 AM

Michael James:
I don't see why you are angry?

I don't think he is angry now,  just frustrated. There must be an underlying structural aspect of the download delivery software that requires a credit card to work. It would probably take human intervention from the highest levels to override the current procedure. I think my proposed VISA cash card method would be the best solution.

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Michael B | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Mar 13 2011 8:55 AM

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Matthew, thank you for responding to others in such a nice way.  Interesting idea, pre-paid visa card.  Might have to look into that; but I have kind of given up on the whole free download from Logos. 

 

Chris, I am a customer in that I have purchased the IVP Reference Library which runs on Libronix.  I purchased this in a bookstore, not online.  The main reason I was trying to download the free resources was to get the Lexham bible so I would have a modern version alongside the AV that came with the CD I purchased.  Since it was free I thought I might as well download it; and the other free things – why not, they are free.  Maybe frustration followed because I (incorrectly) assumed that if these books were free I would be able to freely download them.  If Logos was nice to me it is not inconceivable that I would purchase something from them in the future and would probably trust them with my credit card information.  Giving a credit card when paying for something is reasonable.  However, giving credit card information when not paying for something is a bad idea. 

 

Obviously not everyone agrees that requiring credit card information for a free download is bad.  And I understand the possibility Logos may be under some contractual agreement with publishers or that they find credit cards a good way to verify identity.  However, I believe if Logos wanted to they could offer free resources without requiring a credit card.  That they don’t, indicates to me they are more business focused than customer focused.  That turns this customer off and I am happy to take my paying business elsewhere.  I hope this doesn’t seem like a toddler tantrum.

 

I remain disappointed with Logos.

 

 

Posts 395
Bobby Terhune | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Mar 13 2011 6:01 PM

Michael,

One last thought, you could set up an account with Logos tonight, enter a credit card and download the free books. After you have downloaded the books, you could then delete your credit card info and nobody would have that information.

I have talked to the accounting department in the past about the credit card info stored on their computers. They told me they don't have access to your complete card information because of security reasons, all they can see are what you can see if you pull up your account information, the last 4 digits of the card.

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Otto S. Carroll | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Mar 13 2011 10:02 PM

A quick solution for this dilemma is for Logos to charge him $1 for the free resource, followed by an electronic $1 rebate!!! Hmm

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TCBlack | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 14 2011 5:01 AM

Michael Bon:
I hope this doesn’t seem like a toddler tantrum.
 Nah, it's just not the way I see it - that's all.  I understand you see it differently and only hope that you don't attribute evil motives to logos when none are present.  (Not saying that you have!  Just posting that for posterity when someone else who feels as you do comes along and reads this thread.)

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HJ. van der Wal | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 14 2011 9:57 AM

Is there any chance that Logos will allow us to use alternative methods of payment, such as PayPal or iDEAL?

Although I personally don't mind Logos requiring credit card information, it is an obstacle when I want to encourage other people to use Logos. In the Netherlands only about 55% of all consumers have a credit card, and I reckon that among students this percentage will be much lower. Most Dutch consumers don't use their credit card very often and would probably be just as hesitant as Michael to enter their cc information.

Has anyone actually tried the method Matthew suggested, i.e. the pre-paid VISA cash cards? I like the suggestion. Thanks, Matthew!

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TCBlack | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 14 2011 10:06 AM

Hendrik-Jan van der Wal:

Is there any chance that Logos will allow us to use alternative methods of payment, such as PayPal or iDEAL?

 

I hope so!  But not yet, not really.  A while Back, Paypal offered a feature whereby you could create a credit card# for single use transactions or repeated transactions - I did that for as long as it lasted.  Finally Paypal dropped that for whatevver reasons.  My solution has been to secure the paypal debit card and use that as my primary Logos card.  

You might look into that.

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Smithereens | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 14 2011 11:03 AM

Michael,

Gonna jump in here quickly to thank you (and everyone else who's posted) for the feedback!

Just want to let you know that the cc requirement is really a back-end, software issue, not something we intentionally impose on our customers. It's something we're looking at but, at the moment, have been unable to fix. Please know the info is safe, never used without permission, etc.

Again, thanks for the feedback! It's always great to hear our customers' perspectives...something we genuinely need in order to keep improving our software and user experience, so people can get back to the ever-important Bible studying. 

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 14 2011 12:16 PM

Bobby Terhune:
I have talked to the accounting department in the past about the credit card info stored on their computers. They told me they don't have access to your complete card information because of security reasons, all they can see are what you can see if you pull up your account information, the last 4 digits of the card.

That is all true and correct. Anytime I deal with the human side of sales I have to provide the missing info. 

For a few years I have used  a PayPal card and other bank debit cards for online transactions. I just keep the account balances at a dollar or two and only move funds into it immediately before I use the card. I have been a victim of check forgeries on two occasions but never identity theft or unauthorized card charges.

Logos offers enough free downloads each year to justify getting a VISA cash card or dedicated debit card. I have downloaded a John Piper book, a John MacArthur book, several other free books and lots of very cheap ones.  I would not want to miss out on them just because I had no credit card.

 

 

 

Thomas Black:
Just posting that for posterity

With 4600+  posts,  you have a lot of posterity Thomas.   Devil

 

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