Bad to require credit card for free books/downloads.

Michael,

If someone had a complaint against you (a person or, as in this case, a company) would you prefer they speak to you before going elsewhere to "complain"? I'd like to think you'd speak to someone at Logos to - at the very least - hear their explanation. It seems like an ethical courtesy on your part. If you're not satisfied with their answer then you'd at least have made an effort before going to the BBB.

Mitch

Michael Bon said:

It is bad business practice to take credit
card information when it is not needed

I do not work for Logos so my post is just my own musings.

I am aware of several reasons Logos may need a credit card to complete a free transaction. It could be related to the transaction software. It could be related to licensing issues of the free book. (Many contracts start off with "for value received" because in theory, an exchange must take place to create a contract.) It could be related to future marketing strategies.   Like I said, I have no idea why, but it is not unethical or illegal. It is a common practice. (Even Amazon does it for free transactions.)

You may be able to call Customer Service and request the free downloads be placed in your account without using a credit card. I know a PayPal card or bank debit card will also do.  Cheers.

Michael Bon said:

Unfortunately they responded in order to get the free books offered by Logos I have to enter a credit card.  I have no intention of giving Logos my credit card number for something that is free. 

I'm sorry they could not accommodate your needs. I have one more idea that might work, but I am not sure:

Would it be possible to buy one of those "pre-paid VISA cash cards?"    I don't know how little you can load on it but your exposure to unauthorized charges would be limited to whatever amount you put on it.

It is just an idea.

It would be really nice if Logos would set up some kind of savings account where we could deposit funds by check to cover upcoming Pre-Pubs and other product purchases. It has been suggested before.

Chris Roberts said:

I must confess that this puzzles me.

Chris, I have learned through extensive discussion in other threads about privacy issues that I don't need to understand why others wish to do things their particular way. You made a few good points for Michael but I am sure Michael has his own reasons.  I don't need to know them and will be happy to remain confused and in the dark on the matter. [H]

I was only trying to meet his needs in any way I can.

Michael James said:

I don't see why you are angry?

I don't think he is angry now,  just frustrated. There must be an underlying structural aspect of the download delivery software that requires a credit card to work. It would probably take human intervention from the highest levels to override the current procedure. I think my proposed VISA cash card method would be the best solution.

Michael,

One last thought, you could set up an account with Logos tonight, enter a credit card and download the free books. After you have downloaded the books, you could then delete your credit card info and nobody would have that information.

I have talked to the accounting department in the past about the credit card info stored on their computers. They told me they don't have access to your complete card information because of security reasons, all they can see are what you can see if you pull up your account information, the last 4 digits of the card.

Michael Bon said:

I hope this doesn’t seem like a toddler tantrum.

Hendrik-Jan van der Wal said:

Is there any chance that Logos will allow us to use alternative methods of payment, such as PayPal or iDEAL?

 

I hope so!  But not yet, not really.  A while Back, Paypal offered a feature whereby you could create a credit card# for single use transactions or repeated transactions - I did that for as long as it lasted.  Finally Paypal dropped that for whatevver reasons.  My solution has been to secure the paypal debit card and use that as my primary Logos card.  

You might look into that.

Bobby Terhune said:

I have talked to the accounting department in the past about the credit card info stored on their computers. They told me they don't have access to your complete card information because of security reasons, all they can see are what you can see if you pull up your account information, the last 4 digits of the card.

That is all true and correct. Anytime I deal with the human side of sales I have to provide the missing info. 

For a few years I have used  a PayPal card and other bank debit cards for online transactions. I just keep the account balances at a dollar or two and only move funds into it immediately before I use the card. I have been a victim of check forgeries on two occasions but never identity theft or unauthorized card charges.

Logos offers enough free downloads each year to justify getting a VISA cash card or dedicated debit card. I have downloaded a John Piper book, a John MacArthur book, several other free books and lots of very cheap ones.  I would not want to miss out on them just because I had no credit card.

Thomas Black said:

Just posting that for posterity

With 4600+  posts,  you have a lot of posterity Thomas.   [6]

Michael Bon said:

At a gut level, it still feels wrong for a business to take
credit card information when they aren’t charging anything.  At risk of exaggeration, it seems
unethical.  Think of a local store
offering a free sample of something but requiring you giving them credit card
information first; this would seem a little strange wouldn’t it? 

Michael, I really don't think there are any wrong motives or bad business decisions involved here. It seems instead like an unintended design flaw in the ordering system. I think Logos employee Stephen Smith's response best addresses your concerns (he was the one with the blue Logos logo under his picture):

Stephen Smith said:

Just want to let you know that the cc
requirement is really a back-end, software issue, not something we
intentionally impose on our customers. It's something we're looking at
but, at the moment, have been unable to fix

See http://community.logos.com/forums/p/30699/230029.aspx#230029 for context.

It seems their ordering/download system was designed without thinking about the implications of the fact that they offer some free resources, and it's a complicated thing to fix it so that it would go through a different path when a user orders something free than when they order something they have to pay for. For now it just does all the same stuff in both cases. It sounds like they do wish they could fix that but haven't been able to at the moment.

True, you've pointed out a way in which this issue might cause some users to
walk away completely. Evidently they aren't worried enough about what that could cost them in lost business (seems rather minuscule to me, in the grand scheme of things) to expend the development costs to fix this issue. You say you don't want to take the time to try any of the workarounds. You've at least taken the time and effort to keep coming back
to check this thread on the forum, so something tells me you're
intrigued enough by Logos to hope they will fix this issue someday. And maybe they will. (Too bad they didn't notice the problem before they did their major website overhaul last year, as that would have been the time to fix it.)

Maybe if you poke around on the website some more, one of the resources that aren't free will tempt you and you'll end up giving your credit card info anyway, and then the fact that the free resources currently require credit card info too will be a moot point. [:)]

Michael B said:

Logos is still requiring credit card information for free books.  Makes me sad. 

Hi there Michael,

(Matthew, here.)  

There have been so many free books from Logos and Vyrso lately that I would strongly recommend you get one of those VISA "cash cards"

Logos just started a "Free-Book-of-the-Month" page over here: http://www.logos.com/free-book-of-the-month

The January selection is a doosey! see my post here: http://community.logos.com/forums/p/43485/323591.aspx#323591

I just hate for you to miss out. I don't think the CC requirement is going to change.

Another note: I trust Logos more than I trust my utility companies, PayPal or restaurants. I use my bank card there so why not here?

Good to hear from you.

Logos makes excuses like, "it's okay Bruce we're not going to charge you." or "Logos says, "other sites do it to for their free stuff."

This is pure poppycock. Here is a company (Logos) who makes their living selling computer stuff and claims to be Christian to boot. But they refuse to add a modification to their purchase program whereby when you "purchase" a free book the payment window is not opened and no credit card information is recorded.

Why do they refuse? Slothfulness comes to mind. If they are to continue to maintain they position as a top software company, then they must be on the forefront and not request information on a "free" purchase which is not necessary. I will gladly give my credit card info for a cash purchase, but I will never "buy" a "free" book that requires a credit card.

Logos has no excuse, other than be like the world in all the bad ways, for making this requirement mandatory.

Okay, now Logos will respond with more excuses why they won't modify their program. Excuses, excuses, excuses.....

I do not understand what the problem is here.

Logos gives away free stuff to encourage new customers to jump on board and in the future becoming paying customers, also to reward past customers. As such it makes perfect sense to ask Pele taking advantage of free stuff to become registered to the extent that they are able to make purchases in the future, I.e. to register a card.

If people do not want to register a card then do not do so but there is nothing deceptive about requiring you to do so, if you do not want to then do not take the book.

The need to register a card appears to be accidental and historic but I see no reason why they should change it.

People should really avoid playing the Christian card on this one, if anything it shows greed on their part if they get worked up about it.

Regardless of whether the Logos idea is good or bad (Logos' answers indeed being pure poppycock whatever that is), whenever I download an app that wants a signin (not even a CC), it's good bye. Takes all of 2 seconds.  Don't waste my time.

So my theory is that Logos is reluctant to get too many more customers.  Just minutes later, they jump on the forum and start theological arguments (without a 5-star review too). 

An app that offers 'free' but wants my credit card?? Sure thing.

Not in this day and time.  Welcome to Target.

Bruce Brewer said:

they refuse to add a modification to their purchase program whereby when you "purchase" a free book the payment window is not opened and no credit card information is recorded.

To the best of my knowledge Logos has never "refused" to do this. They've said they have higher priorities, but they'll get to it in time.

Logos was, until very recently, a very small company and needed all their few developers to work on Logos itself, so, as I understand it, they bought all their administrative, financial, forum, etc software from elsewhere. Hence it was what it was, and just 'adding a modification' may not be as easy as you think.

For one thing they may not have the legal right to modify bought software.

For another, multiple systems tie into each other, and modifying one may require first modifying others. I have a faint memory of a post somewhere where Logos states that if they simply remove the credit card requirement, they won't know how many copies of that book they 'sold', and, naturally, the publisher requires them to be able to account for that. So they can't remove the requirement until they have another system in place that counts exactly how many copies they distribute of each book. And coding that probably requires first fixing something else. And so on. 

Thirdly, this isn't exactly the only thing we and/or they have wanted changed with their administrative and financial software, and it doesn't make sense to waste time and money on superficial modifications if your real intention is to rebuild the whole framework from the bottom up, as it is my impression that it is. We have already seen major results from this rebuild: the website now grays out items that we own, it gives us dynamic pricing, and it keeps track of our credits and lets us apply them even on prepubs. Those improvements are far more important than the one you ask for.

Fourthly, coding costs money, and that money is payed by me and others who buy our resources. Why would I want to pay for you not to have to enter your card number?

Personally, I am constantly surprised over the insistence on this change, and constantly shocked over the rudeness with which it is presented. I want Logos to spend their time and money on fixing what I have already payed for, not on placating people who don't want to pay. If someone offers you a free book, take it and be grateful, or leave it and move on. Insulting and making false accusations against someone who tries to be kind to you isn't very nice.

I'm sorry, but I'm just getting very tired of posts like this, that can't even be civil. To the point that I'm beginning to feel like urging Logos never to change this...

In response to the required CC for free resources issue. When I 1st began using Logos, I was also a bit reluctant to enter this information for a company and site that was little known to me, I searched around and did not find any bad reports on the company, I asked some people if they knew anything about Logos, and I thought this through for several days. What I eventually did (still reluctant to enter CC information) was to go out and get one of those Visa gift cards that was a real credit card with limited money on it (a debit card). I used that for several months before using my regular card, and have never experienced a problem where I was charged for a free resource or charged an incorrect amount for anything else.

With all of this said (and tested), I can truly say that Logos is a very reputable company. My statement is not speculation, but fact, as I have personally tested this myself several years ago.

Also, I will add that this practice is not exclusive to Logos. There are other sites/companies that require the same, and the choice is either to accept the practice or move on. Some I do accept, and some I don't accept.

If what Logos offers is valuable to you, and you are not sure whether to trust them or not, just put them through your own test.

Denise said:

Although I think most of the arguments here are specious

OK. Point well taken.

I do take extra measures to limit my exposure on my credit cards. There is only a certain amount that can be charged without my direct intervention for higher charges. 

OK, ST. I'll play (be) dumb. How are you doing that. It's a good idea. We bought a handmade futon in a small villiage near Mt Fuji and used our US cc. Minutes later (literally) our phone rang in Sedona. But that was the card company's software.

I know the cc's have exposure limits but I'd prefer to avoid the issue, given the efficient markets in Nigeria.

Denise said:

OK, ST. I'll play (be) dumb. How are you doing that. It's a good idea.

I have set up an extra bank account with a VISA debit card. I was given the option to reject all charges that would result in an overdraft. Whenever I am about to make a purchase I transfer money into that account. I handle all my Logos Pre-Pubs with just such an account.

fgh said:

Bruce Brewer said:

they refuse to add a modification to their purchase program whereby when you "purchase" a free book the payment window is not opened and no credit card information is recorded.

To the best of my knowledge Logos has never "refused" to do this. They've said they have higher priorities, but they'll get to it in time.

Logos was, until very recently, a very small company and needed all their few developers to work on Logos itself, so, as I understand it, they bought all their administrative, financial, forum, etc software from elsewhere. Hence it was what it was, and just 'adding a modification' may not be as easy as you think.

For one thing they may not have the legal right to modify bought software.

For another, multiple systems tie into each other, and modifying one may require first modifying others. I have a faint memory of a post somewhere where Logos states that if they simply remove the credit card requirement, they won't know how many copies of that book they 'sold', and, naturally, the publisher requires them to be able to account for that. So they can't remove the requirement until they have another system in place that counts exactly how many copies they distribute of each book. And coding that probably requires first fixing something else. And so on. 

Thirdly, this isn't exactly the only thing we and/or they have wanted changed with their administrative and financial software, and it doesn't make sense to waste time and money on superficial modifications if your real intention is to rebuild the whole framework from the bottom up, as it is my impression that it is. We have already seen major results from this rebuild: the website now grays out items that we own, it gives us dynamic pricing, and it keeps track of our credits and lets us apply them even on prepubs. Those improvements are far more important than the one you ask for.

Fourthly, coding costs money, and that money is payed by me and others who buy our resources. Why would I want to pay for you not to have to enter your card number?

Personally, I am constantly surprised over the insistence on this change, and constantly shocked over the rudeness with which it is presented. I want Logos to spend their time and money on fixing what I have already payed for, not on placating people who don't want to pay. If someone offers you a free book, take it and be grateful, or leave it and move on. Insulting and making false accusations against someone who tries to be kind to you isn't very nice.

I'm sorry, but I'm just getting very tired of posts like this, that can't even be civil. To the point that I'm beginning to feel like urging Logos never to change this...

yes yes yes. This is my sentiment exactly. Seems like hardly a week goes by where this question doesn't come up - and frequently by an individual with 1 or 2 posts. Their approach is bellicose (often as not) and their words loaded with venom.

Its not that I can't relate to wanting my card information safe... I do. I've had bad experiences with Bank of America, with Sprint, Cingular wireless, and a few others... Regions bank took Sprint to task, and recovered the 600$ they withdrew from my account (billed me thrice). Visa sorted Cingular, and I closed my account at Bank of America (it took a surprising six months before everything was really truly closed). So I can understand ones reluctance to give out ones credit card number.

That said, they have had my information for 3 years now, and I've not yet had any glitches. Which is more than I can say for iTunes.

C.S. Lewis once said (Speaking of atheists) that "there is enough light for those who desire to see, and enough darkness for those of a contrary disposition. I think that applies anytime trust is required. Those who will will, and those who wont name call, and post angry rants on forums. Is the free book really worth the emotional investment it took you to write out that post? Really?