God will never "tempt" us, but he will "test"us...

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MJD | Forum Activity | Posted: Sun, Mar 6 2011 5:41 PM

  I know that God will test us, but he will never tempt us.  I am wondering how the Experienced Logos user would use Logos to study on this subject?

thanks,

Mike

Posts 5337
Kevin Becker | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Mar 6 2011 5:59 PM

I would start off with a Bible search "God NEAR tempt,test" Then I would transfer the search results to a Passage list and prune out the passages not applicable to the subject. Then I would check cross reference resources (like the Treasury of Scriptural knowledge) for the verse remaining in my list to see if there are any passages the initial search missed.

Then I would begin systematically studying the passages. I would also run Basic searches on my library like "test NEAR <Deut 13:3> to look for theology books/journal articles that deal with this topic. I would also be looking for other terminology I could be adding to my search to find everything in my library that is pertinent to the topic.

Posts 10177
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Mar 6 2011 6:52 PM

I'd start with some passage guides from the book of James where the word gets really 'tested'. James takes on what appears to be a rabbinical logic, but the background to much of his discussion can be found in the Theological Lexicon of the NT 'ἀπείραστος'. This is the same resource I panned a couple of days ago and now must eat my words.


Posts 4763
David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Mar 6 2011 7:47 PM

Isn't this because temptation is in our own minds/hearts? God couldn't tempt us even if He wanted to, because we make our own decisions. But He clearly can and does use lying spirits (1 Kgs. 22:22) and sends strong delusion (2 Th. 2:11) against those who refuse to submit in obedience to His will. Some would call this temptation, perhaps. Too bad...'cause YHWH doesn't. Checkmate!

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Mar 6 2011 8:23 PM

David Paul:
Checkmate!

Not quite - the question was about how an experienced Logos user would use LOGOS. Remember that we try not to get into theological debates. Okay, for me sometimes the emphasis is on the "try" rather than "succeed" but I have to leave perfection for someone else, right?Wink

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 175
Silent Sam | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Mar 6 2011 9:17 PM

                                                                                Hmm HHHMMMmmm~~~ Hmm

Posts 1633
Allen Browne | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Mar 6 2011 9:18 PM

Michael James:
I know that God will test us, but he will never tempt us.  I am wondering how the Experienced Logos user would use Logos to study on this subject?

An experienced Logos user would look at the amount of money he has spent on Logos resources, and then ponder the question you asked. ;-)

Presumably you have already done a Bible search for:
    temp* OR test*
so you can see if the two words have similar, different, or overlapping meanings. To help you with the meaning in any context, you would use whatever commentaries you have, and (if you have them) lexicons such as Louw/Nida that try to identify the semantic domains of the Greek words.

You could then try an entire library seartch for:
    temp* NEAR test*
to see if you have resource that talk about both words in close proximity.

A Bible dictionary might also help.

Posts 3663
Floyd Johnson | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Mar 6 2011 10:01 PM

Michael James:

  I know that God will test us, but he will never tempt us.  I am wondering how the Experienced Logos user would use Logos to study on this subject?

 

I don't claim to be a power user, but I would probably proceed like this:

  1. Begin to look for scripture where the two term occur together.:

            test* NEAR tempt*
    or
            test* AND tempt*

    I would probably use a BASIC search on either TOP BIBLES or ALL BIBLES to do this (BIBLE searches are limited to verses, BASIC searches are within chapters). This isn't ideal, but the way the software works.

    This search will give a look at scripture verses that use both words.

  2. I would then enlarge the BASIC search of my Bibles by changing the search term to

           test* OR tempt* ANDNOT (test* AND tempt*)

    This will give those scriptures that use either term, but not both.

  3. Having identified key passages of interest, I would begin to consult commentaries that deal with these passages. I would begin with my favorite commentaries, then extend my reading to others as my time permits.

  4. Next, having previously built a collections of Dictionaries and Encyclopedias, I would search the collection using the term:

    test* OR tempt*

    This gives a glimpse into how scholars have defined the term before me.

  5. Finally, I would extend the search to my entire collection – there may be gems that can contribute to my understanding of how the terms are used. I might narrow my search to theology books, or ethics, etc.    

 

 

Blessings,
Floyd

Pastor-Patrick.blogspot.com

Posts 5337
Kevin Becker | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 7 2011 2:58 AM

Allen Browne:
An experienced Logos user would look at the amount of money he has spent on Logos resources, and then ponder the question you asked. ;-)

Or ponder how much more he or she wants to spend but can't and how some book on the wishlist would be perfect for this investigation Smile.

 

But back to the question. After I had a list of the passages pertinent to this question I would also do a word study on the Hebrew and Greek words that stand behind the translation test and tempt/temptation.

Posts 297
Schezic | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 7 2011 3:24 AM

Seems to me, When God created Eden, He only put forth one "Test" ... Do no eat from the tree. When the woman failed that test, sin entered the world. Any subsequent tests are a result of sin. God allows the testing. He did not plan it. We blame/accuse the wrong one. The testing is directly tied to that specific tempting some 6,000 years ago. I still maintain that God is not responsible for the tempting or the testing. Big Smile

Posts 291
Bob Schlessman | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 7 2011 4:35 AM

What a great duscussion and excellent suggestions on the use of Logos to examine a topic of much concern to all Christians!

I've said it before and I will say it again, "I love these forums!"

Blessings,

Bob

Posts 4508
Robert Pavich | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 7 2011 5:17 AM

Thanks Kevin, for that very detailed search strategy! It seems to be much better than the way I would have done it, thanks very much.

Robert Pavich

For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__

Posts 386
MJD | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 7 2011 5:34 AM

Great response's!  Thank you... Now, to ask part two... 

Now, what resources would one buy (in your opinion) "for that perfect book, journal, etc. to go deeper?"  I realize this is very subjective.

I am looking at building up my resources, and I would like to hear your thoughts on building a comprehensive library.

I have the Platinum and NICNT/NiCOT, Calvin 500, Zondervan bundle 1, Word, Piper bundle, MacArthur bundle, Journals 1-10. AYB dictionary, amongst many others to total about 2900 resources.

My goal is to have a library that is able to be solid for a wide variety of subjects.  I think it would be interesting to understand the thoughts behind the great minds on this forum, and how they built (building) their library.

blessings,

Mike

 

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Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 7 2011 6:14 AM

There's a resource called Hard Sayings of the Bible in the IVP Reference Collection, which deals with this question well, from the perspective of James 1:13. That's an excellent collection, and one I'd definitely recommend for the dictionaries.

As has been mentioned above, commentaries are always useful for these questions, and two commentary sets you don't have, both also published by IVP and excellent value for money are the Tyndale series (whole bible) and BST series (NT only). The BST series is written by pastors, Tyndale by a mix of pastors and scholars. If you want something more technical, but still evangelical, Pillar would be an excellent choice. You'll have some of these in Platinum, but there are more now, and are equivalent quality to NICNT.

Posts 1649
Room4more | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 7 2011 7:12 AM

or--------

First, just do it the easy way, open up your preferred "bible" to james, then start the passage guide, then the exegetical guide, when they are finished loading, go to the Bible verse click the "word of choice"  then right click and do the bible word study.

What is the point: The passage guide uses ALL your library resources that are applicable, same with the exeg. guide and the word study.....then you spend a few hours ""gleaning"" and trusting in the Spirit of the Almighty God to lead you.

[edit: link the tabs, and type in 'Jam 1:13' in the bible hit enter. All the tabs will go to that verse. except the bible word study (BWS) which is subject to the word of choice]

Should it be that you really need more resources other than what you have, Ask Him ^ to help you decide, don't just 'buy' 'buy' 'buy'

Passsage List: How can you 'prune' the passage list, if you do not understand the 'context' nor the 'content' of how the statement is being applied?

of course thats just my opinion....

DISCLAIMER: What you do on YOUR computer is your doing.

Posts 5337
Kevin Becker | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 7 2011 8:23 AM

Robert Booth:

Passsage List: How can you 'prune' the passage list, if you do not understand the 'context' nor the 'content' of how the statement is being applied?

of course thats just my opinion....

Once you have a passage list from the results of a search you can manually delete any reference you think is not applicable. I'm not advocating a careless approach that strikes possibilities on a whim. Some verses obviously don't directly relate to this particular topic. For example every reference that talks about people testing God can be deleted from the list with confidence. If one has a question about context you can always click the referenced and read the relevant paragraph/chapter. Headings can be added to sort verses that certainly relate and verses that might relate but need more study to make a determination.

Posts 9946
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 7 2011 8:33 AM

Michael James:

  I know that God will test us, but he will never tempt us.  I am wondering how the Experienced Logos user would use Logos to study on this subject?

thanks,

Mike

I'm TEMPTED to say that this is a distinction without a difference.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

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Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 7 2011 8:38 AM

George Somsel:
I'm TEMPTED to say that this is a distinction without a difference.

The difference is in the intended result. A tester designs his test to be passed. A tempter designs his temptation to cause failure.

Posts 297
Schezic | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 7 2011 9:16 AM

Mark Barnes:
The difference is in the intended result. A tester designs his test to be passed. A tempter designs his temptation to cause failure.

I whole-heartedly agree that a tempter designs his temptation to cause failure.

We may differ on our view of the tester. If you believe God "designed" the "test" and caused the trials and tribulations we encounter I could not disagree more. If however, You see the "testing" as God evaluating how we process and grow from those hardships, (and strengthening us as  needed,) I concur. Some of that growth is realizing that the tempter is responsible for encouraging us to act on our own lusts. The greater growth comes after admitting that the foundation of the whole sin process is our own lust. We are responsible for much of the hardship that we all too often call "Testing."

 

James 1:13-16  Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am being tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone. 14 But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust. 15 Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.  ... NASU  

 

Posts 9946
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 7 2011 9:18 AM

Mark Barnes:

The difference is in the intended result. A tester designs his test to be passed. A tempter designs his temptation to cause failure.

 

1 Corinthians 10:13 (NA27)

13πειρασμὸς ὑμᾶς οὐκ εἴληφεν εἰ μὴ ἀνθρώπινος· πιστὸς δὲ ὁ θεός, ὃς οὐκ ἐάσει ὑμᾶς πειρασθῆναι ὑπὲρ ὃ δύνασθε ἀλλὰ ποιήσει σὺν τῷ πειρασμῷ καὶ τὴν ἔκβασιν τοῦ δύνασθαι ὑπενεγκεῖν.

πειρασμός, οῦ, ὁ  (πειράζω; in extra-Biblical usage only Diosc., Mat. Med. Praef. 5; Cyranides; Syntipas [s. 2b].—LXX; TestJos 2:7).

an attempt to learn the nature or character of someth., test, trial (Sir 6:7; 27:5, 7)

 

an attempt to learn the nature or character of someth., test, trial (Sir 6:7; 27:5, 7)

an attempt to learn the nature or character of someth., test, trial (Sir 6:7; 27:5, 7)

πρὸς πειρασμόν to test you 1 Pt 4:12. διὰπειρασμόν τινα because you are being tried in some way Hm 9:7. Perh. Js 1:2 and 1 Pt 1:6 belong here (cp. Pind., O. 4, 22 διά πειρά τοι βροτῶν ἔλεγχο=trial is the test of mortals; sim. N. 3, 70f). Here also belongs the testing (s. πειράζω

2c) of God by humans (cp. Dt 6:16; 9:22) Hb 3:8 where vs. 9 shows that it is God who is being tested, and not the Israelites (Ps 94:8f).συντελέσας πάντα πειρασμὸν ὁ διάβολος when the devil had exhausted every way of tempting Lk 4:13.

 

an attempt to make one do someth. wrong, temptation, enticement to sin.

act. tempting

 

act. tempting

act. tempting

Arndt, William, Frederick W. Danker and Walter Bauer. A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature. 3rd ed. Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 2000.

EDIT:  Pardon my Swahili, but this list software sucks.  Why should it introduce extraneous lines and repeat line 3 times ? 

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

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