I know that God will test us, but he will never tempt us. I am wondering how the Experienced Logos user would use Logos to study on this subject?
thanks,
Mike
I would start off with a Bible search "God NEAR tempt,test" Then I would transfer the search results to a Passage list and prune out the passages not applicable to the subject. Then I would check cross reference resources (like the Treasury of Scriptural knowledge) for the verse remaining in my list to see if there are any passages the initial search missed.
Then I would begin systematically studying the passages. I would also run Basic searches on my library like "test NEAR <Deut 13:3> to look for theology books/journal articles that deal with this topic. I would also be looking for other terminology I could be adding to my search to find everything in my library that is pertinent to the topic.
I'd start with some passage guides from the book of James where the word gets really 'tested'. James takes on what appears to be a rabbinical logic, but the background to much of his discussion can be found in the Theological Lexicon of the NT 'ἀπείραστος'. This is the same resource I panned a couple of days ago and now must eat my words.
Isn't this because temptation is in our own minds/hearts? God couldn't tempt us even if He wanted to, because we make our own decisions. But He clearly can and does use lying spirits (1 Kgs. 22:22) and sends strong delusion (2 Th. 2:11) against those who refuse to submit in obedience to His will. Some would call this temptation, perhaps. Too bad...'cause YHWH doesn't. Checkmate!
Checkmate!
Not quite - the question was about how an experienced Logos user would use LOGOS. Remember that we try not to get into theological debates. Okay, for me sometimes the emphasis is on the "try" rather than "succeed" but I have to leave perfection for someone else, right?[;)]
[^o)] HHHMMMmmm~~~ [^o)]
An experienced Logos user would look at the amount of money he has spent on Logos resources, and then ponder the question you asked. ;-)
Presumably you have already done a Bible search for: temp* OR test*so you can see if the two words have similar, different, or overlapping meanings. To help you with the meaning in any context, you would use whatever commentaries you have, and (if you have them) lexicons such as Louw/Nida that try to identify the semantic domains of the Greek words.
You could then try an entire library seartch for: temp* NEAR test*to see if you have resource that talk about both words in close proximity.
A Bible dictionary might also help.
I don't claim to be a power user, but Iwould probably proceed like this:
Begin to look for scripture where the two term occur together.: test* NEAR tempt*or test* AND tempt*
I would probably use a BASIC search on either TOP BIBLES or ALL BIBLES to do this (BIBLE searches are limited to verses, BASIC searches are within chapters). This isn't ideal, but the way the software works. This search will give a look at scripture verses that use both words.
I would then enlarge the BASIC search of my Bibles by changing the search term to test* OR tempt* ANDNOT (test* AND tempt*)This will give those scriptures that use either term, but not both.
Having identified key passages of interest, I would begin to consult commentaries that deal with these passages. I would begin with my favorite commentaries, then extend my reading to others as my time permits.
Next, having previously built a collections of Dictionaries and Encyclopedias, I would search the collection using the term:test* OR tempt*This gives a glimpse into how scholars have defined the term before me.
Finally, I would extend the search to my entire collection – there may be gems that can contribute to my understanding of how the terms are used. I might narrow my search to theology books, or ethics, etc.
Or ponder how much more he or she wants to spend but can't and how some book on the wishlist would be perfect for this investigation [:)].
But back to the question. After I had a list of the passages pertinent to this question I would also do a word study on the Hebrew and Greek words that stand behind the translation test and tempt/temptation.
Seems to me, When God created Eden, He only put forth one "Test" ... Do no eat from the tree. When the woman failed that test, sin entered the world. Any subsequent tests are a result of sin. God allows the testing. He did not plan it. We blame/accuse the wrong one. The testing is directly tied to that specific tempting some 6,000 years ago. I still maintain that God is not responsible for the tempting or the testing. [:D]
What a great duscussion and excellent suggestions on the use of Logos to examine a topic of much concern to all Christians!
I've said it before and I will say it again, "I love these forums!"
Blessings,
Bob
Thanks Kevin, for that very detailed search strategy! It seems to be much better than the way I would have done it, thanks very much.
Great response's! Thank you... Now, to ask part two...
Now, what resources would one buy (in your opinion) "for that perfect book, journal, etc. to go deeper?" I realize this is very subjective.
I am looking at building up my resources, and I would like to hear your thoughts on building a comprehensive library.
I have the Platinum and NICNT/NiCOT, Calvin 500, Zondervan bundle 1, Word, Piper bundle, MacArthur bundle, Journals 1-10. AYB dictionary, amongst many others to total about 2900 resources.
My goal is to have a library that is able to be solid for a wide variety of subjects. I think it would be interesting to understand the thoughts behind the great minds on this forum, and how they built (building) their library.
blessings,
There's a resource called Hard Sayings of the Bible in the IVP Reference Collection, which deals with this question well, from the perspective of James 1:13. That's an excellent collection, and one I'd definitely recommend for the dictionaries.
As has been mentioned above, commentaries are always useful for these questions, and two commentary sets you don't have, both also published by IVP and excellent value for money are the Tyndale series (whole bible) and BST series (NT only). The BST series is written by pastors, Tyndale by a mix of pastors and scholars. If you want something more technical, but still evangelical, Pillar would be an excellent choice. You'll have some of these in Platinum, but there are more now, and are equivalent quality to NICNT.
or--------
First, just do it the easy way, open up your preferred "bible" to james, then start the passage guide, then the exegetical guide, when they are finished loading, go to the Bible verse click the "word of choice" then right click and do the bible word study.
What is the point: The passage guide uses ALL your library resources that are applicable, same with the exeg. guide and the word study.....then you spend a few hours ""gleaning"" and trusting in the Spirit of the Almighty God to lead you.
[edit: link the tabs, and type in 'Jam 1:13' in the bible hit enter. All the tabs will go to that verse. except the bible word study (BWS) which is subject to the word of choice]
Should it be that you really need more resources other than what you have, Ask Him ^ to help you decide, don't just 'buy' 'buy' 'buy'
Passsage List: How can you 'prune' the passage list, if you do not understand the 'context' nor the 'content' of how the statement is being applied?
of course thats just my opinion....
Passsage List: How can you 'prune' the passage list, if you do not understand the 'context' nor the 'content' of how the statement is being applied? of course thats just my opinion....
Once you have a passage list from the results of a search you can manually delete any reference you think is not applicable. I'm not advocating a careless approach that strikes possibilities on a whim. Some verses obviously don't directly relate to this particular topic. For example every reference that talks about people testing God can be deleted from the list with confidence. If one has a question about context you can always click the referenced and read the relevant paragraph/chapter. Headings can be added to sort verses that certainly relate and verses that might relate but need more study to make a determination.
I know that God will test us, but he will never tempt us. I am wondering how the Experienced Logos user would use Logos to study on this subject? thanks, Mike
I'm TEMPTED to say that this is a distinction without a difference.
The difference is in the intended result. A tester designs his test to be passed. A tempter designs his temptation to cause failure.
I whole-heartedly agree that a tempter designs his temptation to cause failure.
We may differ on our view of the tester. If you believe God "designed" the "test" and caused the trials and tribulations we encounter I could not disagree more. If however, You see the "testing" as God evaluating how we process and grow from those hardships, (and strengthening us as needed,) I concur. Some of that growth is realizing that the tempter is responsible for encouraging us to act on our own lusts. The greater growth comes after admitting that the foundation of the whole sin process is our own lust. We are responsible for much of the hardship that we all too often call "Testing."
1 Corinthians 10:13 (NA27)
13πειρασμὸς ὑμᾶς οὐκ εἴληφεν εἰ μὴ ἀνθρώπινος· πιστὸς δὲ ὁ θεός, ὃς οὐκ ἐάσει ὑμᾶς πειρασθῆναι ὑπὲρ ὃ δύνασθε ἀλλὰ ποιήσει σὺν τῷ πειρασμῷ καὶ τὴν ἔκβασιν τοῦ δύνασθαι ὑπενεγκεῖν.
πειρασμός, οῦ, ὁ (πειράζω; in extra-Biblical usage only Diosc., Mat. Med. Praef. 5; Cyranides; Syntipas [s. 2b].—LXX; TestJos 2:7).
①
This is great insight, I so appreciate the way you all contribute, I like the "unbolting," your words and the discusion bring clarity.
Thank you for participating in this discusion, it helps me to grow.
Richly in Him,
The difference is in the intended result. A tester designs his test to be passed. A tempter designs his temptation to cause failure. I whole-heartedly agree that a tempter designs his temptation to cause failure. We may differ on our view of the tester. If you believe God "designed" the "test" and caused the trials and tribulations we encounter I could not disagree more. If however, You see the "testing" as God evaluating how we process and grow from those hardships, (and strengthening us as needed,) I concur. Some of that growth is realizing that the tempter is responsible for encouraging us to act on our own lusts. The greater growth comes after admitting that the foundation of the whole sin process is our own lust. We are responsible for much of the hardship that we all too often call "Testing." James 1:13-16 Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am being tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone. 14 But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust. 15 Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death. ... NASU
James 1:13-16 Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am being tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone. 14 But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust. 15 Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death. ... NASU
[Y] Logical [Y]
I'm TEMPTED to say that this is a distinction without a difference. The difference is in the intended result. A tester designs his test to be passed. A tempter designs his temptation to cause failure.
In other words, the difference is in the mind of the tempter / tester. The result is still the same.
Quite the contrary. (Your actual results may vary.) The results are contingent on individual Choice. Who we trust and turn to determines the outcome of the hardship.
Josh 24:15
"And if it is evil in your eyes to serve the Lord, choose this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your fathers served in the region beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord."
I'm TEMPTED to say that this is a distinction without a difference. The difference is in the intended result. A tester designs his test to be passed. A tempter designs his temptation to cause failure. In other words, the difference is in the mind of the tempter / tester. The result is still the same.
Yes. Think of boy who is blind, and who is learning to walk with a guide dog or a white stick. As he's walking, someone puts an obstacle in his way that he may easily trip over. There's a big difference between that obstacle being placed by a loving father (who is teaching is son to walk and avoid worse obstacles in the future), and by the nasty child next door who wants a bit of fun at the boys expense. The father wants the boy to recognise the obstacle and deal with it, the nasty child wants the boy to fall.
So the very same situation could be either a test (designed to be passed), or a temptation (designed to be failed), and perhaps sometimes both. God gives tests, Satan gives temptations.
Note to Schezic: You can 'beat' temptations, and fail tests (and vice-versa, of course). So you're right that the results are contingent on individual choice. But neither the result nor the choice determines whether something is a test or a temptation.
A tempter designs his temptation to cause failure.
A tester designs his test to be passed.
I think this is the point George is making here.
πειρασμός, οῦ, ὁ (πειράζω; in extra-Biblical usage only Diosc., Mat. Med. Praef. 5; Cyranides; Syntipas [s. 2b].—LXX; TestJos 2:7). ① an attempt to learn the nature or character of someth., test, trial
(Is that formatting better, George? I just used backspace to remove all the extra returns.)
Kevin,
True.
But the pruning can be unnecessary, when we determine if our search is:
1. Based on a theological premise
2.The deisre to know(definitional) of "tempt" "tempted" "tempting" tempter" "temptation" "test" etc.
3. the relationship of the verse in the context/content to the "Audiance" that James is writing his letter to.
The Word study is good in the sense of its origin and roots. How is the word of choice being applied to the whole of the statement and how is the statement being applied to the whole of the passage and etc., to the letter - thus the Audiance: in its comparison to any and all passages related thereto...
Does this aply to us today and can we associate the 'christians ' then to us today?
A passage list can be beneficial when we already know what we seek, but rather toilsome when we are not sure: we can define the word by BWS, then do the search(passage list) by the definition that best suits what it is we are hoping to discover.
Thus, the Spirit of the Almighty God, must be the leader in what we are attempting to discover and learn from the verse/passage/chapter/Book.
(besides the fact that i would believe that you and i are confident that there is a major difference in "tempt" and "test" - would you not agree?
And whether it is a temptation of Satan or a test of God, successfully passing it will have a positive effect on the believer. [:D]
James 1:2
There's a big difference between that obstacle being placed by a loving father (who is teaching is son to walk and avoid worse obstacles in the future), and by the nasty child next door who wants a bit of fun at the boys expense. The father wants the boy to recognise the obstacle and deal with it, the nasty child wants the boy to fall.
Note to Mark:
Why would the father not just wait for the boy to stumble over the toys he had neglected to pick up? It is bound to happen.( We can assume that the father has repeatedly warned the boy that forgotten toys are tripping hazards ) The father can be available to break the fall that he knows will happen.Then he can help the child realize his responsibility for the obstacle, and the father does not sacrifice the trust the boy has for him.
Matthew,
But James is not talking about any 'satan'.
He is being direct in that it comes from within.....
Note to Mark:Why would the father not just wait for the boy to stumble over the toys he had neglected to pick up? It is bound to happen. The father can be available to break the fall that he knows will happen.Then he can help the child realize his responsibility for the obstacle, and the father does not sacrifice the trust the boy has for him.
I'm not Mark so let us pretend I had the strength to resist posting an answer. [:$]
I know two dozen Calvinists on these forums that could answer your question if it were not taboo to go off the path in theological pursuits.........
Job 13:15 (Yes, I know. It is bad practice to form theology based on other men's misunderstandings. But Job apparently did not question God's moral superiority in whether or not to "temp" &/or "test."
You are strengthening my point. God did not test Job. He allowed Satan to do it so Job could exhibit his freedom of Choice.
Michael.
No one has ask yet. But what is the verse or passage that you are referring to when you state: "God will never "tempt" us, but he will "test"us..."
Or is it just a random question? Because all of a sudden it took off into that of James 1:13.
Please set some parameters before this gets all wacked-out of proportion. Your first was concerning the use of L4. is this still what you are seeking?
Robert
Matthew, But James is not talking about any 'satan'. He is being direct in that it comes from within.....
Understood.I was couching all "temptation" of evil origin, designed for our failure ~VS~ "testing" for our edification.We sinners usually like to blame Satan ("the devil made me do it" ) or the world ("everybody's else's fault.") when in fact we are drawn away of our own lusts.My question is: Why would our enemy design a "test" for our edification? Is God only prescriptively reacting to the evil we encounter?
But did not God create everything and is in control of everything and knows everything (past,present,future), thus would it not be accurate to state that God manufactured any and all "tests" whether they appear evil or good?
But James explictly uses 'tempt', and that being applied to God, Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: God could not be tempted with something that He himself is the Author of---Can He? [something to think about]
1 Corinthians 10:13 (NA27) 13πειρασμὸς ὑμᾶς οὐκ εἴληφεν εἰ μὴ ἀνθρώπινος· πιστὸς δὲ ὁ θεός, ὃς οὐκ ἐάσει ὑμᾶς πειρασθῆναι ὑπὲρ ὃ δύνασθε ἀλλὰ ποιήσει σὺν τῷ πειρασμῷ καὶ τὴν ἔκβασιν τοῦ δύνασθαι ὑπενεγκεῖν.
George makes a good point here...we need to look at original languages. The word πειρασμὸς that he draws attention to in his post is translated by the English words "temptation", "trial", and "testing" (NASB95). In English we have differing denotative and connotative meanings associated with these three words, whereas it isn't always clear that such different meanings were intended in the Greek. The issue, quite often, when confusion occurs regarding Scriptural understanding, is one of the loss of meaning between our language and the original languages.
Other issues cause confusion as well...such as YHWH's imposition of the strong delusion I mentioned in my earlier post. It affects virtually all biblical comprehension...and not in a positive way.
My question is: Why would our enemy design a "test" for our edification?
This question was bassed on a sermon I heard yesterday "The key to overcoming Temptation." Matthew 4: 1-11
http://www.atgrace.com/video-player?v=20717270&s=0e11991a9ac92a2f07925c01c125d18e
I have to tell you this forum is great because, I have already been blessed much through this post. In Answering you Robert, I also want to learn how to use L4 but I also love the wisdom and insight provided here whilst I do ask the question.
thank you again,
MJD
This thread took off while I was composing my last post and got interrupted.
A SEARCH USING LOGOS (my transparent attempt to keep this software related) will show that YHWH deliberately uses not just trials but deliberate deception, confusion, and lying spirits to further His purposes. These are not always directed at the enemy and his flunkies, though they certainly are in most cases. God could have destroyed hasaataan for his sin looooooong before he ever snuck into the garden. In fact, he didn't sneak into the garden...because there is no sneaking where YHWH is concerned.
A point that most people never seem to comprehend is that hasaataan IS NOTHING MORE THAN A TOOL IN YHWH'S BELT. Satan is God's patsy...nothing more and nothing less. He can do NOTHING whatsoever that YHWH doesn't give him an authoritative pass on. Job 1 (which you can read using your LOGOS SOFTWARE) proves this unequivocally.
Schezic said: If you believe God "designed" the "test" and caused the trials and tribulations we encounter I could not disagree more.
I would disagree with the grounds and conclusion of your disagreement, and back my claim with reams of material that I can gather USING THE SEARCH FUNCTION OF LOGOS SOFTWARE.
1 Kings 22:19–23 (NRSV)
19Then Micaiah said, “Therefore hear the word of the Lord: I saw the Lord sitting on his throne, with all the host of heaven standing beside him to the right and to the left of him. 20And the Lord said, ‘Who will entice Ahab, so that he may go up and fall at Ramoth-gilead?’ Then one said one thing, and another said another, 21until a spirit came forward and stood before the Lord, saying, ‘I will entice him.’ 22‘How?’ the Lord asked him. He replied, ‘I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.’ Then the Lord said, ‘You are to entice him, and you shall succeed; go out and do it.’ 23So you see, the Lord has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these your prophets; the Lord has decreed disaster for you.”
So, who enticed Ahab? A lying spirit or the LORD who gave the command?
@David, I believe it was Luther who wrote, "Even the Devil is God's Devil." I'd search Logos to confirm it but I don't have the works of Luther. [:'(]
You are strengthening my point. God did not test Job. He allowed Satan to do it so Job could exhibit his freedom of Choice. 1 Kings 22:19–23 (NRSV) 19Then Micaiah said, “Therefore hear the word of the Lord: I saw the Lord sitting on his throne, with all the host of heaven standing beside him to the right and to the left of him. 20And the Lord said, ‘Who will entice Ahab, so that he may go up and fall at Ramoth-gilead?’ Then one said one thing, and another said another, 21until a spirit came forward and stood before the Lord, saying, ‘I will entice him.’ 22‘How?’ the Lord asked him. He replied, ‘I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.’ Then the Lord said, ‘You are to entice him, and you shall succeed; go out and do it.’ 23So you see, the Lord has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these your prophets; the Lord has decreed disaster for you.” So, who enticed Ahab? A lying spirit or the LORD who gave the command?
Yes, George...which is one of the verses I called on in my first post. Also, God did indeed test Job...and He used hasaataan to do it. YHWH IS THE ONE who brought Job's name into the discussion...and he also set the parameters of his testing and torment. Yes, He uses others as tools...but He never concedes ever that He is anything other than SOVEREIGN (the final Word) on all activity that transpires in His creation. A search using LOGOS will support that.
@David, I believe it was Luther who wrote, "Even the Devil is God's Devil." I'd search Logos to confirm it but I don't have the works of Luther.
I think this may be the passage you reference. It is often paraphrased, as in your "quote" [:)]
"God uses the devil and the evil angels. They, of course, desire to ruin everything; but God blocks them, unless a well-earned scourging is in order. God allows pestilence, war, or some other plague to come, that we may humble ourselves before him, fear him, hold to him, and call upon him. When God has accomplished these purposes through the scourge, then the good angels come again to perform their office. They bid the devil stop the pestilence, war, and famine. So the devil must serve us with the very thing with which he plans to injure us; for God is such a great Master that he is able to turn even the wickedness of the devil into good."
Martin Luther
Thanks Schezic, any chance you could provide the citation for the actual quote?
All the quotations are taken from the Ewald Plass, What Luther Says, (St. Louis: Concordia Publishing House, 1959), pp. 391-404.
Thanks again Schezic, that's going in my note file.
I think we are talking past each other (at least I agree with what I hear you saying.) I'm trying to avoid diving in the deep end of the theological pool. Although I am not a Calvinist, I do agree with God being in total control and knowing all things past, present, and future. That is why I posted this above:
Getting back to the original post: I think a good use of the Logos software in addressing this question is a look at 1 Corinthians 10:13 to determine from the original language if God is the one providing escape along with the temptation (complementary duo both offered by the same Author) or alongside the temptation (contesting it's evil origin: two opposing authors.) Any takers?
Good. When you look at the original, There is much more than : "The devil is God's devil"
For instance..."God allows pestilence, war, or some other plague to come,"
I wonder where Plass quoted it from. It's apparently not in the writings included in Concordia/Logos version of the Works of Luther. (I tried searching for small bits of the quote in case the translation was different).
Did you find "The devil is God's devil" ?
A search of my library returned 8 hits for the phrase "the Devil is God's Devil" in quotes. All directly attributed to Luther with no footnotes as where Luther said it.
I did find Max Lucado's expounding on Lutzer interesting:
Erwin Lutzer articulates this thought in his book, The Serpent of Paradise: The devil is just as much God’s servant in his rebellion as he was in the days of his sweet obedience…. We can’t quote Luther too often: The devil is God’s devil. Satan has different roles to play, depending on God’s counsel and purposes. He is pressed into service to do God’s will in the world; he must do the bidding of the Almighty. We must bear in mind that he does have frightful powers, but knowing that those can only be exercised under God’s direction and pleasure gives us hope. Satan is simply not free to wreak havoc on people at will.” Lucado, M. (1997). The great house of God : A home for your heart (149). Dallas: Word Pub.
