God will never "tempt" us, but he will "test"us...

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MJD | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 7 2011 9:37 AM

This is great insight, I so appreciate the way you all contribute, I like the "unbolting," your words and the discusion bring clarity. 

Thank you for participating in this discusion, it helps me to grow.

Richly in Him,

Mike

Posts 77
K.J. | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 7 2011 10:10 AM

Schezic:

Mark Barnes:
The difference is in the intended result. A tester designs his test to be passed. A tempter designs his temptation to cause failure.

I whole-heartedly agree that a tempter designs his temptation to cause failure.

We may differ on our view of the tester. If you believe God "designed" the "test" and caused the trials and tribulations we encounter I could not disagree more. If however, You see the "testing" as God evaluating how we process and grow from those hardships, (and strengthening us as  needed,) I concur. Some of that growth is realizing that the tempter is responsible for encouraging us to act on our own lusts. The greater growth comes after admitting that the foundation of the whole sin process is our own lust. We are responsible for much of the hardship that we all too often call "Testing."

 

James 1:13-16  Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am being tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone. 14 But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust. 15 Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.  ... NASU  

 

Yes Logical Yes

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George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 7 2011 10:21 AM

Mark Barnes:

George Somsel:
I'm TEMPTED to say that this is a distinction without a difference.

The difference is in the intended result. A tester designs his test to be passed. A tempter designs his temptation to cause failure.

In other words, the difference is in the mind of the tempter / tester.  The result is still the same.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 297
Schezic | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 7 2011 10:39 AM

George Somsel:
In other words, the difference is in the mind of the tempter / tester.  The result is still the same.

Quite the contrary. (Your actual results may vary.) The results are contingent on individual Choice. Who we trust and turn to determines the outcome of the hardship.

 

Josh 24:15

"And if it is evil in your eyes to serve the Lord, choose this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your fathers served in the region beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord."

 

 

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Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 7 2011 11:01 AM

George Somsel:

Mark Barnes:

George Somsel:
I'm TEMPTED to say that this is a distinction without a difference.

The difference is in the intended result. A tester designs his test to be passed. A tempter designs his temptation to cause failure.

In other words, the difference is in the mind of the tempter / tester.  The result is still the same.

Yes. Think of boy who is blind, and who is learning to walk with a guide dog or a white stick. As he's walking, someone puts an obstacle in his way that he may easily trip over. There's a big difference between that obstacle being placed by a loving father (who is teaching is son to walk and avoid worse obstacles in the future), and by the nasty child next door who wants a bit of fun at the boys expense. The father wants the boy to recognise the obstacle and deal with it, the nasty child wants the boy to fall.

So the very same situation could be either a test (designed to be passed), or a temptation (designed to be failed), and perhaps sometimes both. God gives tests, Satan gives temptations.

Note to Schezic: You can 'beat' temptations, and fail tests (and vice-versa, of course). So you're right that the results are contingent on individual choice. But neither the result nor the choice determines whether something is a test or a temptation.

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 7 2011 11:07 AM

Mark Barnes:
A tempter designs his temptation to cause failure.

Agree 100%
Mark Barnes:
A tester designs his test to be passed.

In education a test should be used:
pre-instruction; to show the Teacher the depth of the student's present understanding.
post-instruction; to gauge the Teacher's pedagogical effectiveness.
"The Effect of Knowledge of Instructional Objectives"  Dr. Eleanor Daniels (my Ed. Psych professor)

But if God is omniscient, He can not learn anything new from our testing. The testing must be for our own enlightenment.

I think this is the point George is making here.

George Somsel:
  πειρασμός, οῦ, ὁ  (πειράζω; in extra-Biblical usage only Diosc., Mat. Med. Praef. 5; Cyranides; Syntipas [s. 2b].—LXX; TestJos 2:7). ① an attempt to learn the nature or character of someth., test, trial

(Is that formatting better, George?  I just used backspace to remove all the extra returns.)

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Room4more | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 7 2011 11:08 AM

Kevin,

True.

But the pruning can be unnecessary, when we determine if our search is:

1. Based on a theological premise

2.The deisre to know(definitional) of "tempt" "tempted" "tempting" tempter" "temptation" "test" etc.

3. the relationship of the verse in the context/content to the "Audiance" that James is writing his letter to.

The Word study is good in the sense of its origin and roots. How is the word of choice being applied to the whole of the statement and how is the statement being applied to the whole of the passage and etc., to the letter - thus the Audiance: in its comparison to any and all passages related thereto...

Does this aply to us today and can we associate the 'christians ' then to us today?

A passage list can be beneficial when we already know what we seek, but rather toilsome when we are not sure: we can define the word by BWS, then do the search(passage list) by the definition that best suits what it is we are hoping to discover.

Thus, the Spirit of the Almighty God, must be the leader in what we are attempting to discover and learn from the verse/passage/chapter/Book.

(besides the fact that i would believe that you and i are confident that there is a major difference in "tempt" and "test" - would you not agree?

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 7 2011 11:13 AM

Mark Barnes:
Note to Schezic: You can 'beat' temptations, and fail tests (and vice-versa, of course). So you're right that the results are contingent on individual choice. But neither the result nor the choice determines whether something is a test or a temptation.

And whether it is a temptation of Satan or a test of God, successfully passing it will have a positive effect on the believer. Big Smile

James 1:2

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Schezic | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 7 2011 11:16 AM

Mark Barnes:
There's a big difference between that obstacle being placed by a loving father (who is teaching is son to walk and avoid worse obstacles in the future), and by the nasty child next door who wants a bit of fun at the boys expense. The father wants the boy to recognise the obstacle and deal with it, the nasty child wants the boy to fall.

Note to Mark:

Why would the father not just wait for the boy to stumble over the toys he had neglected to pick up? It is bound to happen.( We can assume that the father has repeatedly warned the boy that forgotten toys are tripping hazards ) The father can be available to break the fall that he knows will happen.Then he can help the child realize his responsibility for the obstacle, and the father does not sacrifice the trust the boy has for him.

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Room4more | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 7 2011 11:17 AM

Matthew,

But James is not talking about any 'satan'.

He is being direct in that it comes from within.....

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 7 2011 11:24 AM

Schezic:
Note to Mark:Why would the father not just wait for the boy to stumble over the toys he had neglected to pick up? It is bound to happen. The father can be available to break the fall that he knows will happen.Then he can help the child realize his responsibility for the obstacle, and the father does not sacrifice the trust the boy has for him.

I'm not Mark so let us pretend I had the strength to resist posting an answer. Embarrassed

I know two dozen Calvinists on these forums that could answer your question if it were not taboo to go off the path in theological pursuits.........

Job 13:15 (Yes, I know. It is bad practice to form theology based on other men's misunderstandings. But Job apparently did not question God's moral superiority in whether or not to "temp" &/or "test."

 

 

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Schezic | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 7 2011 11:29 AM

You are strengthening my point. God did not test Job. He allowed Satan to do it so Job could exhibit his freedom of Choice.

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Room4more | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 7 2011 11:29 AM

Michael.

No one has ask yet. But what is the verse or passage that you are referring to when you state: "God will never "tempt" us, but he will "test"us..."

Or is it just a random question? Because all of a sudden it took off into that of James 1:13.

Please set some parameters before this gets all wacked-out of proportion. Your first was concerning the use of L4. is this still what you are seeking?

Robert

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 7 2011 11:29 AM

Robert Booth:

Matthew,

But James is not talking about any 'satan'.

He is being direct in that it comes from within.....

Understood.I was couching all "temptation" of evil origin, designed for our failure ~VS~ "testing" for our edification.
We sinners usually like to blame Satan ("the devil made me do it" ) or the world ("everybody's else's fault.") when in fact we are drawn away of our own lusts.
My question is: Why would our enemy design a "test" for our edification? Is God only prescriptively reacting to the evil we encounter?

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Room4more | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 7 2011 11:37 AM

Matthew,

But did not God create everything and is in control of everything and knows everything (past,present,future), thus would it not be accurate to state that God manufactured any and all "tests" whether they appear evil or good?

But James explictly uses 'tempt', and that being applied to God, Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:  God could not be tempted with something that He himself is the Author of---Can He? [something to think about]

Robert


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David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 7 2011 11:39 AM

George Somsel:

1 Corinthians 10:13 (NA27)

13πειρασμὸς ὑμᾶς οὐκ εἴληφεν εἰ μὴ ἀνθρώπινος· πιστὸς δὲ ὁ θεός, ὃς οὐκ ἐάσει ὑμᾶς πειρασθῆναι ὑπὲρ ὃ δύνασθε ἀλλὰ ποιήσει σὺν τῷ πειρασμῷ καὶ τὴν ἔκβασιν τοῦ δύνασθαι ὑπενεγκεῖν.

George makes a good point here...we need to look at original languages. The word πειρασμὸς that he draws attention to in his post is translated by the English words "temptation", "trial",  and "testing" (NASB95). In English we have differing denotative and connotative meanings associated with these three words, whereas it isn't always clear that such different meanings were intended in the Greek. The issue, quite often, when confusion occurs regarding Scriptural understanding, is one of the loss of meaning between our language and the original languages.

Other issues cause confusion as well...such as YHWH's imposition of the strong delusion I mentioned in my earlier post. It affects virtually all biblical comprehension...and not in a positive way.

Posts 297
Schezic | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 7 2011 11:39 AM

Matthew C Jones:
My question is: Why would our enemy design a "test" for our edification?

Gen 50:20-21 "As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today." ......   God did not cause Joseph to be sold into slavery. He did, However, allow Joseph to grow into a highly respected man, so he could be instrumental in the survival of  God's people.  

 

Posts 386
MJD | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 7 2011 11:47 AM

This question was bassed on a sermon I heard yesterday "The key to overcoming Temptation."  Matthew 4: 1-11

http://www.atgrace.com/video-player?v=20717270&s=0e11991a9ac92a2f07925c01c125d18e

I have to tell you this forum is great because, I have already been blessed much through this post.  In Answering you Robert, I also want to learn how to use L4 but I also love the wisdom and insight provided here whilst I do ask the question.

thank you again,

MJD

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David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 7 2011 11:58 AM

This thread took off while I was composing my last post and got interrupted.

A SEARCH USING LOGOS (my transparent attempt to keep this software related) will show that YHWH deliberately uses not just trials but deliberate deception, confusion, and lying spirits to further His purposes. These are not always directed at the enemy and his flunkies, though they certainly are in most cases. God could have destroyed hasaataan for his sin looooooong before he ever snuck into the garden. In fact, he didn't sneak into the garden...because there is no sneaking where YHWH is concerned.

A point that most people never seem to comprehend is that hasaataan IS NOTHING MORE THAN A TOOL IN YHWH'S BELT. Satan is God's patsy...nothing more and nothing less. He can do NOTHING whatsoever that YHWH doesn't give him an authoritative pass on. Job 1 (which you can read using your LOGOS SOFTWARE) proves this unequivocally.

Schezic said: If you believe God "designed" the "test" and caused the trials and tribulations we encounter I could not disagree more.

I would disagree with the grounds and conclusion of your disagreement, and back my claim with reams of material that I can gather USING THE SEARCH FUNCTION OF LOGOS SOFTWARE.

 

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George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 7 2011 11:59 AM

Schezic:

You are strengthening my point. God did not test Job. He allowed Satan to do it so Job could exhibit his freedom of Choice.

1 Kings 22:19–23 (NRSV)

19Then Micaiah said, “Therefore hear the word of the Lord: I saw the Lord sitting on his throne, with all the host of heaven standing beside him to the right and to the left of him.  20And the Lord said, ‘Who will entice Ahab, so that he may go up and fall at Ramoth-gilead?’ Then one said one thing, and another said another, 21until a spirit came forward and stood before the Lord, saying, ‘I will entice him.’  22‘How?’ the Lord asked him. He replied, ‘I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.’ Then the Lord said, ‘You are to entice him, and you shall succeed; go out and do it.’  23So you see, the Lord has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these your prophets; the Lord has decreed disaster for you.”

So, who enticed Ahab?  A lying spirit or the LORD who gave the command?

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

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