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This post has 145 Replies | 9 Followers

Posts 1416
Wes Saad | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 2 2009 5:32 PM

I noticed Bob in another thread mentioning that Mac development would bring the Mac version up to speed in a matter of months. Months, not years. Number of months was not specified, but this will not be a long, drawn-out development process resulting in a substandard product. Within a month or so we should see nice progress of the Alpha, and in a few months we will really start to be pleased.

As things stand, I'm impressed with development, and I'm usually quick to criticize this sort of thing. Yes, I would love to see a full-featured Mac app already up and running, but I'm pleasantly surprised things are already where they are.

Posts 1698
LogosEmployee
Bob Pritchett | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 2 2009 6:47 PM

I'm really sorry the Mac product isn't completely finished. We'd planned for it to be.

For what it's worth, it has a disproportionate number of developers on it -- it's percentage of our dev team is bigger than its percentage of our sales.

But they got a late start, since we only shipped the earlier Mac product (built by another company) a year ago, and the Windows team had been working for a couple of years.

We're evening moving a developer over. And with updates every two weeks, you should see fast improvements. (We don't have to write the missing features, simply build their user interface. Easy for some features, harder for others.)

Posts 71
Colin Thornby | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 2 2009 6:53 PM

Joe Miller:

Colin, I think you bring some legitimate questions. 

Pointing the Mac to the Logos 4 page is misleading.  It should point to the Alpha page if anything.

I think the reason, in part, Mac is in Alpha is a decision about not paying to design Logos 4 twice.  I was in the Beta group for Windows (but am I Mac user).  The features changed a lot over the past 6 to 8 weeks.  If Logos was developing both Windows and Mac at the exact same time, they would have to pay two groups of developers to make the same changes.  By finishing Windows first, it make a clear path for the Mac developers to develop features that are already "set".  Point being, it keeps costs low.  At least that is my opinion, but Bob may have something better to offer.

That being said, I would like a timeline of some sort 6 weeks, 6 months, 6 years?

Logos had 15 developers working on "Windows and only 5 on Mac, so how does that impact the timeline?

All good questions.

Meantime, I am quick to add that I trust Bob and the Logos team to be fair with us.  They have demonstrated solid Christ-like character over the years, so I am willing to give the benefit of the doubt when I don't know all the answers.  That is my 2cents--you can decide if it is worth even that.:-)

Hi Joe

I'm happy to give the benefit of the doubt - I guess my point is that it should be possible to eliminate a great deal of doubt by being up-front about it all.

I really do take the point about economies of scale, and so on. I just think it is possible to communicate in an up-front, honest and straightforward way which leads to people saying "OK, I can deal with that."

I like Logos, and there's no doubt I'll upgrade (and spend yet more money!) - I would really just like to have someone tell me when I can expect a functional product. I'm happy to work with Beta products, but I don't do Alpha builds as I'm not a developer, and prefer not to deal with the hassles.

Col

Posts 71
Colin Thornby | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 2 2009 7:06 PM

Thanks for your reply, Bob. I appreciate the information. I think "not completely finished" might be a tad hopeful, though - if it is an Alpha build that implies it is not close to finished.

I guess, for myself, I would simply ask that Logos acknowledges that your introduction of your Mac product (both v1 and this new v4) has been flawed. That doesn't mean you offer us money or anything like that.

I do note your comment:

Bob Pritchett:

But they got a late start, since we only shipped the earlier Mac product (built by another company) a year ago, and the Windows team had been working for a couple of years.

I take your point, but it is sort of Logos' problem, as that was how you chose to do it. It is annoying that I'm forced to make do with a sub-standard product which doesn't do everything it promises to do because of the way Logos has chosen to deploy resources.

Bob Pritchett:

For what it's worth, it has a disproportionate number of developers on it -- it's percentage of our dev team is bigger than its percentage of our sales.

We're evening moving a developer over. And with updates every two weeks, you should see fast improvements. (We don't have to write the missing features, simply build their user interface. Easy for some features, harder for others.)

Again - this is Logos' choice about how Logos deploys resources. I don't feel I should be thankful for Logos just working on a product it should be working on!

I'm not angry per se, I just want to point out the frustration that I feel. I suspect I might be joined by others. Businesses rightly exist to make money, and the way they do it successfully is to provide high quality product and service. Consumers do them a disservice when they don't provide forthright feedback. I could write a blog post venting my spleen, but I'd rather share it here.

Having said all that, I am appreciative of your provision of information. It is at least reassuring to know that someone is willing to take the heat!

Posts 1698
LogosEmployee
Bob Pritchett | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 2 2009 7:14 PM

Colin Thornby:
this is Logos' choice about how Logos deploys resources.

Hey, I'm not the one who chose the computer that's different from what 90% of the world uses... 

<nervous smile>

Just kidding. We love the Mac.

We debated what do to here, and considered just continuing to sell the old version and not talking about Logos 4 for Mac until it was further along. I decided to ship the alpha and announce it, though, so that we could have one consistent message about what Logos 4 is, instead of a separate feature list for the Mac, and because I know what's happening internally. As raw as the alpha looks -- and is -- it's fundamentally the same code base. Moreover, many of our Mac users are actually dual platform users, and by offering one Logos 4 story -- even with a lame initial Mac release -- we let them get started in Logos 4 with the assurance that their data and settings will sync to the Mac.

Moreover, since the existing Mac product was missing so many features of the Windows product, it won't be long at all until the Alpha exceeds its functionality. So even if it's a few months before every Logos 4 feature is live on the Mac, it will be less time before Logos 4 on the Mac is ahead of the old Mac version.

It was a tough decision, and I'm the one who made it, however it turns out. We'll just have to see how far we can move the Alpha along in the next few weeks to see if it was a good decision or not. :-)

Posts 222
Bob Turner | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 2 2009 7:35 PM

Bob - i want to say that i appreciate the willingness to put the product out there right away for us.  i believe i can speak for most (if not all) mac users to say i'm excited to see the alpha, as well as the finished product.

as of right now, its been "indexing my library" for over 12 hours... and i've yet to see the alpha product work.  i am anticipating there will be much to produce my compliments and praising to others that i know.  i have quite a few waiting to hear my review before they decide to purchase Logos or not.  i'm truly hoping i will be able to boast of Logos for the mac when v.4 is working for me.

River of Life Church: http://LifeOverflowing.org

Visit my blog: http://LifeOverflowing.org/pastor

 

Posts 209
Steven Yu | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 2 2009 7:50 PM

Any plan for us to upgrade to ver 4 on a payment plan?  Also how long will be the disount offer for exisitng Logos Ver 3 owner stay for?

"And you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free", John 8:32.
"你們必定認識真理,真理必定使你們自由", 約翰福音 8:3.

Posts 439
Mark Stevens | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 2 2009 8:14 PM

Bob, what about those of us who are using the Mac engine and are not able to use all of its features since upgrading to SL? The exegtical guide won't work properly. I have spoken with the Mac department and they have said they don't understand why it isn't working. Will there be a patch for that at all? 

 

Also some idea of time would be GREATLY appreciated. When can we expect the full version (even a worst case scenario would be helpful!).

Posts 8
Wes Porter | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 2 2009 8:55 PM

Hi Joe,

Sorry just got back to the thread. A little busy today. Great I am glad there will be no cost associated with the engine upgrade. I guess thats why I asked if I was wrong.

I appreciate the work they are trying to do for the mac user base. 

On another note the ad hominem against me is inappropriate to say the least. I was just trying to figure out what was the situation. The disclaimer was not clear. Thanks for your understanding. If I cam across a little annoyed my apologies. I was annoyed so I am asking for your forgiveness and anyone else's that I came across combative. 

Thanks.

Wes Porter

Posts 8967
RIP
Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 2 2009 8:59 PM

Steven Yu:

Any plan for us to upgrade to ver 4 on a payment plan?  Also how long will be the disount offer for exisitng Logos Ver 3 owner stay for?

Stephen,

 I just posted an answer to this in Portfolio Price Too Steap thread. 

Logos 7 Collectors Edition

Posts 222
Bob Turner | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 2 2009 9:30 PM

Ok so now after 14.5 hours of downloading and indexing... i am now being prompted over to "install and relaunch" over and over again.  it then says "Updates for Logos Bible Software 4 are ready to be installed.  Click OK to install them now." over and over again also.

it is just and endless cycle... really... after 14.5 hours!??  any suggestions?

River of Life Church: http://LifeOverflowing.org

Visit my blog: http://LifeOverflowing.org/pastor

 

Posts 71
Colin Thornby | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 2 2009 9:33 PM

Pastor Bob Turner:

Ok so now after 14.5 hours of downloading and indexing... i am now being prompted over to "install and relaunch" over and over again.  it then says "Updates for Logos Bible Software 4 are ready to be installed.  Click OK to install them now." over and over again also.

it is just and endless cycle... really... after 14.5 hours!??  any suggestions?

My suggestion is to wait for the Beta build. This one is an Alpha, has very little useable interface and is very unstable.

Posts 222
Bob Turner | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 2 2009 9:36 PM

actually it has no useable interface.  i haven't heard from anyone on the Mac that has been able to use it.  

River of Life Church: http://LifeOverflowing.org

Visit my blog: http://LifeOverflowing.org/pastor

 

Posts 2778
J.R. Miller | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 2 2009 9:37 PM

Colin Thornby:
I just think it is possible to communicate in an up-front, honest and straightforward way which leads to people saying "OK, I can deal with that."
I think you will find that when you ask questions, Bob will chime in when we (some of the Beta testers) don't give the right answer.  We have asked most of these questions over the past 8 weeks, and there have been many THOUSANDS of post that Bob has read and replied to.  Right now, we are trying to help give the best direct answers we can to help during the busy time, but still you see Bob is in here answering with, IMHO, very direct answers.  Can they do a better job?  Sure, and I think Logos has responded very well to critique and made improvements to do better at communicating their position. Point being, ask questions, make challenges, and Logos will read and respond with integrity.  

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Posts 2778
J.R. Miller | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 2 2009 9:49 PM

Wes Porter:
I was just trying to figure out what was the situation.
Hi Wes, I hope now that you know the facts, that you have not been taken advantage of or "nickel and dimed" for the Mac version.  You can still get support for 1.0.  It is stable on Mac.  The new Alpha is coded with ALL the features of the Windows version, it is only now getting the interface so we can access what is there.  That is a very good position to be in and not the typical status of a traditional Alpha.  Bob and his company have shown a lot of integrity in their treatment of us.  Do they always make the perfect decisions?  Do they alway make decisions that make every single user happy?  No.  But the good news is, I have come to trust that even when they don't do something "my way" they have a good reason to do it Bob's way, and usually it works out.  There is nothing in the history of this process that leads me to think that despite some potholes, we are going to get a solid Mac product of equal value to the Winows product.  

Blessings to you brother,

Joe

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Posts 1416
Wes Saad | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 2 2009 9:50 PM

Bob,

I've been able to use it, it's just not terribly usable yet. :) I can open resources, run passage guide, etc, but features are clearly missing and usability is limited.

Posts 222
Bob Turner | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 2 2009 9:56 PM

ok  Chris.  ty for clarifying.

can u do me a favor?  i'd like to see a screen shot of what the home screen and some of the passage guide searches look like for the mac version.  care to?  :)

River of Life Church: http://LifeOverflowing.org

Visit my blog: http://LifeOverflowing.org/pastor

 

Posts 28956
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 2 2009 10:03 PM

MarkStevens:
what about those of us who are using the Mac engine and are not able to use all of its features since upgrading to SL?

Be glad and rejoice ... those of us who upgraded to Logos 4 are now also waiting for incomplete features. Perhaps when we are all in the same boat, the heavens will let forth rain in torrents and .... and... and?

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 1416
Wes Saad | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 2 2009 10:04 PM

Bob,

I was actually in the process of making a screen shot for you when I encountered another problem.

I took a screen shot earlier of things in action, you can find it at http://www.seektheholy.com/2009/11/02/introducing-logos-4/#mac

Posts 4508
Robert Pavich | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 3 2009 4:13 AM

Wes Porter:
On another note the ad hominem against me is inappropriate to say the least.

 

Wes, we all have our concerns about the software; each one different. Joe's comment about how you came across was not an ad hominem by defintion; just an accurate observation given what you said. It's not WHAT you said.....it's how you said it...as my mother would say.... Big Smile

This might have elicited a different response:

"I'm a little confused; I'm a mac user who's already spent the money to buy the mac engine. Now that there is another version; do I need to repurchase it?

thanks in advance,

Wes...

 

Now isn't that just a little different than what you said about being nickle and dimed to death?

Robert Pavich

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