Logos 4

I can't say I am too happy to find out that I have to pay another $69.00 to Alpha test another Mac application. I am shocked actually by this simple fact that I have paid for a sub par program that was promised more features which now I have to pay for again?

Or am I mistaken and I get a 4.0 upgrade for free???

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Wes Saad

You can test the Alpha for free. When Logos finalizes the Logos 4 engine I'm guessing current users will be able to use the new engine without paying again.

Wes Porter

I have already paid for 3.0 Windows version, I have now paid for a defunct product that will not be supported with updated features (Current Mac Version). If I want the 4.0 windows version I have to pay another $69 dollars to get it and the alpha mac version.

Why don't the Mac Users just get the new engine for free. I guess I don't really understand if I get a free upgrade to 4.0 with the Mac version eventually (which doesn't seem clear) then shouldn't I get it now with both platforms?

I feel we are being nickeled and dimed on the engine.

Wes

Abby

Where exactly would we locate this Logos 4 Alpha Engine for Mac (assuming it's for Mac since this is posted on the Mac forum?) Thanks! Abby

Wes Porter

By the way a link to the disclaimer

http://www.logos.com/mac/disclaimer

Notice this language - Please Note: You may purchase Logos Bible Software 4 for Mac Alpha right now, and use it on Mac or Windows

Bob Pritchett

I feel we are being nickeled and dimed on the engine.

The Mac engine will be free from now on. You can download the (very early) alpha at:

http://downloads.logos.com/LBS4/LBS4MacInstaller/Logos4Mac.dmg

We do strongly recommend at least the minimal crossgrade, because it comes with some fantastic content that helps Logos 4 really shine, but it's not at all required.

Sorry for the confusion!

Abby

Thanks so much Bob!

spitzerpl

We do strongly recommend at least the minimal crossgrade, because it comes with some fantastic content that helps Logos 4 really shine,

If it includes the Hymn sheets, pictures files, historical people/places/things...you will not be disappointed crossgrading.

Mark Stevens

Bob, please read this as a friendly question and not a criticism (it is difficult to express emotion via text). I would like to add that I feel a bit ripped off having to pay for another engine so early after paying for the Mac engine (which is not working so well with Snow Leopard). That aside I have some questions:

I use Original Languages with a Mac engine. Why do I need to upgrade to the new ver 4 OL? The books now included are really not worth the money (for me)

Are you saying (based on what is written above) that Mac users will never have to pay to upgrade to version 4?

Could you please explain to the Mac users the time line expected? Are we talking days, weeks, Months or a year? This one is important for me - I may revert to PC if it is a long time away.

I use Logos every day and am a little frustrated at the moment. My exegetical guide wont work properly and now I have no idea whether I need to upgrade, cross grade or down grade!

Thanks for taking the time to answer questions.

Colin Thornby

I too, find this most frustrating. I bought a product expecting it to work as it should and with a full feature set. Logos for Mac 1 never has had either of those things. Whilst I welcome Logos 4, and the idea that I will finally have a product that might do what I expect and have the features I've paid for (many months ago), I am astounded that we're still in Alpha territory. Not even a Beta? Not even an indication of a timeline?

I really do understand the 'primacy of the PC' for Logos, but guys, if you want us to go forward with you I think you really need to do better.

I think, also, it would be more honest to not point the www.macbiblesoftware.com page to the www.logos.com/4 page, as it gives the impression of a finished product available for the Mac, which is manifestly not the case. If you do that, at least move the link to the disclaimer to the landing page, not to the next one.

Colin

J.R. Miller

I have already paid for 3.0 Windows version, I have now paid for a defunct product that will not be supported with updated features (Current Mac Version). If I want the 4.0 windows version I have to pay another $69 dollars to get it and the alpha mac version.

Why don't the Mac Users just get the new engine for free. I guess I don't really understand if I get a free upgrade to 4.0 with the Mac version eventually (which doesn't seem clear) then shouldn't I get it now with both platforms?

I feel we are being nickeled and dimed on the engine.

Quick to complain but slow to recant. The Mac Alpha was always free, you just had to ask instead of complaining.

J.R. Miller

Colin, I think you bring some legitimate questions.

Pointing the Mac to the Logos 4 page is misleading. It should point to the Alpha page if anything.

I think the reason, in part, Mac is in Alpha is a decision about not paying to design Logos 4 twice. I was in the Beta group for Windows (but am I Mac user). The features changed a lot over the past 6 to 8 weeks. If Logos was developing both Windows and Mac at the exact same time, they would have to pay two groups of developers to make the same changes. By finishing Windows first, it make a clear path for the Mac developers to develop features that are already "set". Point being, it keeps costs low. At least that is my opinion, but Bob may have something better to offer.

That being said, I would like a timeline of some sort 6 weeks, 6 months, 6 years?

Logos had 15 developers working on "Windows and only 5 on Mac, so how does that impact the timeline?

All good questions.

Meantime, I am quick to add that I trust Bob and the Logos team to be fair with us. They have demonstrated solid Christ-like character over the years, so I am willing to give the benefit of the doubt when I don't know all the answers. That is my 2cents--you can decide if it is worth even that.:-)

Wes Saad

I noticed Bob in another thread mentioning that Mac development would bring the Mac version up to speed in a matter of months. Months, not years. Number of months was not specified, but this will not be a long, drawn-out development process resulting in a substandard product. Within a month or so we should see nice progress of the Alpha, and in a few months we will really start to be pleased.

As things stand, I'm impressed with development, and I'm usually quick to criticize this sort of thing. Yes, I would love to see a full-featured Mac app already up and running, but I'm pleasantly surprised things are already where they are.

Bob Pritchett

I'm really sorry the Mac product isn't completely finished. We'd planned for it to be.

For what it's worth, it has a disproportionate number of developers on it -- it's percentage of our dev team is bigger than its percentage of our sales.

But they got a late start, since we only shipped the earlier Mac product (built by another company) a year ago, and the Windows team had been working for a couple of years.

We're evening moving a developer over. And with updates every two weeks, you should see fast improvements. (We don't have to write the missing features, simply build their user interface. Easy for some features, harder for others.)

Colin Thornby

Colin, I think you bring some legitimate questions.

Pointing the Mac to the Logos 4 page is misleading. It should point to the Alpha page if anything.

I think the reason, in part, Mac is in Alpha is a decision about not paying to design Logos 4 twice. I was in the Beta group for Windows (but am I Mac user). The features changed a lot over the past 6 to 8 weeks. If Logos was developing both Windows and Mac at the exact same time, they would have to pay two groups of developers to make the same changes. By finishing Windows first, it make a clear path for the Mac developers to develop features that are already "set". Point being, it keeps costs low. At least that is my opinion, but Bob may have something better to offer.

That being said, I would like a timeline of some sort 6 weeks, 6 months, 6 years?

Logos had 15 developers working on "Windows and only 5 on Mac, so how does that impact the timeline?

All good questions.

Meantime, I am quick to add that I trust Bob and the Logos team to be fair with us. They have demonstrated solid Christ-like character over the years, so I am willing to give the benefit of the doubt when I don't know all the answers. That is my 2cents--you can decide if it is worth even that.:-)

Hi Joe

I'm happy to give the benefit of the doubt - I guess my point is that it should be possible to eliminate a great deal of doubt by being up-front about it all.

I really do take the point about economies of scale, and so on. I just think it is possible to communicate in an up-front, honest and straightforward way which leads to people saying "OK, I can deal with that."

I like Logos, and there's no doubt I'll upgrade (and spend yet more money!) - I would really just like to have someone tell me when I can expect a functional product. I'm happy to work with Beta products, but I don't do Alpha builds as I'm not a developer, and prefer not to deal with the hassles.

Col

Colin Thornby

Thanks for your reply, Bob. I appreciate the information. I think "not completely finished" might be a tad hopeful, though - if it is an Alpha build that implies it is not close to finished.

I guess, for myself, I would simply ask that Logos acknowledges that your introduction of your Mac product (both v1 and this new v4) has been flawed. That doesn't mean you offer us money or anything like that.

I do note your comment:

But they got a late start, since we only shipped the earlier Mac product (built by another company) a year ago, and the Windows team had been working for a couple of years.

I take your point, but it is sort of Logos' problem, as that was how you chose to do it. It is annoying that I'm forced to make do with a sub-standard product which doesn't do everything it promises to do because of the way Logos has chosen to deploy resources.

For what it's worth, it has a disproportionate number of developers on it -- it's percentage of our dev team is bigger than its percentage of our sales.

We're evening moving a developer over. And with updates every two weeks, you should see fast improvements. (We don't have to write the missing features, simply build their user interface. Easy for some features, harder for others.)

Again - this is Logos' choice about how Logos deploys resources. I don't feel I should be thankful for Logos just working on a product it should be working on!

I'm not angry per se, I just want to point out the frustration that I feel. I suspect I might be joined by others. Businesses rightly exist to make money, and the way they do it successfully is to provide high quality product and service. Consumers do them a disservice when they don't provide forthright feedback. I could write a blog post venting my spleen, but I'd rather share it here.

Having said all that, I am appreciative of your provision of information. It is at least reassuring to know that someone is willing to take the heat!

Bob Pritchett

this is Logos' choice about how Logos deploys resources.

Hey, I'm not the one who chose the computer that's different from what 90% of the world uses...

Just kidding. We love the Mac.

We debated what do to here, and considered just continuing to sell the old version and not talking about Logos 4 for Mac until it was further along. I decided to ship the alpha and announce it, though, so that we could have one consistent message about what Logos 4 is, instead of a separate feature list for the Mac, and because I know what's happening internally. As raw as the alpha looks -- and is -- it's fundamentally the same code base. Moreover, many of our Mac users are actually dual platform users, and by offering one Logos 4 story -- even with a lame initial Mac release -- we let them get started in Logos 4 with the assurance that their data and settings will sync to the Mac.

Moreover, since the existing Mac product was missing so many features of the Windows product, it won't be long at all until the Alpha exceeds its functionality. So even if it's a few months before every Logos 4 feature is live on the Mac, it will be less time before Logos 4 on the Mac is ahead of the old Mac version.

It was a tough decision, and I'm the one who made it, however it turns out. We'll just have to see how far we can move the Alpha along in the next few weeks to see if it was a good decision or not. :-)

Wes Porter

Hi Joe,

Sorry just got back to the thread. A little busy today. Great I am glad there will be no cost associated with the engine upgrade. I guess thats why I asked if I was wrong.

I appreciate the work they are trying to do for the mac user base.

On another note the ad hominem against me is inappropriate to say the least. I was just trying to figure out what was the situation. The disclaimer was not clear. Thanks for your understanding. If I cam across a little annoyed my apologies. I was annoyed so I am asking for your forgiveness and anyone else's that I came across combative.

Thanks.

Wes Porter

Bob Turner

Ok so now after 14.5 hours of downloading and indexing... i am now being prompted over to "install and relaunch" over and over again. it then says "Updates for Logos Bible Software 4 are ready to be installed. Click OK to install them now." over and over again also.

it is just and endless cycle... really... after 14.5 hours!?? any suggestions?

Colin Thornby

Ok so now after 14.5 hours of downloading and indexing... i am now being prompted over to "install and relaunch" over and over again. it then says "Updates for Logos Bible Software 4 are ready to be installed. Click OK to install them now." over and over again also.

it is just and endless cycle... really... after 14.5 hours!?? any suggestions?

My suggestion is to wait for the Beta build. This one is an Alpha, has very little useable interface and is very unstable.

J.R. Miller

I just think it is possible to communicate in an up-front, honest and straightforward way which leads to people saying "OK, I can deal with that."

I think you will find that when you ask questions, Bob will chime in when we (some of the Beta testers) don't give the right answer. We have asked most of these questions over the past 8 weeks, and there have been many THOUSANDS of post that Bob has read and replied to. Right now, we are trying to help give the best direct answers we can to help during the busy time, but still you see Bob is in here answering with, IMHO, very direct answers. Can they do a better job? Sure, and I think Logos has responded very well to critique and made improvements to do better at communicating their position. Point being, ask questions, make challenges, and Logos will read and respond with integrity.

Jerry W. David

I can say I feel exactly the same way. I changed from Windows to MAC platform about a year ago BUT was never told at the time that not all of the functions I had previously purchased would work. At the time - I swore I'd never repeat that mistake. WELL - never say never. I stupidly bit the same hook!

This new MAC version of Logos 4 is barely functional. I understand the disclaimer and all - - but this thing works totally different on two different machines - - and both exhibit constant hangups and shutdowns of the program without any reason.

Total frustration with LOGOS right now. Trying to remain a Christian in my thoughts and attitude realm!

Wes Porter

A lot has gone on with this thread.

Just because someone like myself has a low post count does not mean my original question is not worthy. I find that silly. I am a busy person who only came to the forums to look for answers on a specific issue.

Secondly, instead of continuing down the path of frustration and finally went and purchased Accordance. I will use Accordance for Bible study and logos 1.1 as a reference library. Maybe I will upgrade to 4.0 one day since it will be free but for the time being I have made the switch and will use Accordance as my primary Bible Software.

I know I can't be the only one who has a bitter taste in their mouth about the whole Mac thing/cross grade/ upgrade or whatever you want to call it.

I am only providing this feedback that logos has lost 1 customer over this. If they come out with a viable mac product then maybe I will look at it again someday but for the time being my money will be going to the competition.

I hope nobody finds this post offensive but more informational. I will do my apologies upfront if this offends anybody or it doesn't seem appropriate. Thanks!

Wes

shane blyth

I dont have a problem at all with your post.

If everyone owned and used the same piece of software it would tend to imply we are all clones.

The fact that you use a different piece just shows you are not exactly like others, having different needs and different things are more important to you. God created a diverse array of people and thats something to be celebrated. Some are frustrated with Logos as you are no doubt. I am not one of them. I am enjoying the Alpha. I can wait. No doubt I have different needs and priorities with my Bible software which is fine. One product will never satisfy every person or their style of doing things.

I never particularly liked Mac 1.x and went back to Quickverse for Mac till Logos 4 came out. I applaud Logos for bringing out a public Alpha but as you have found ti is not exactly up to speed yet and frustrating you. Do come and check it out when it is further down the track. I like to revisit competing software at regular occasions and see what has changed. If I hadn't kept an open mind I would of never come back to Logos. But I have but who knows what the next year will bring and I may discover something more suited or my needs may change.