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Posts 759
Tobias Lampert | Forum Activity | Posted: Sun, May 29 2011 10:59 PM

Please notice the discussion in this thread: http://community.logos.com/forums/t/33752.aspx

It seems like some - if not all - Vyrso books don't have page numbers.

Please, Logos: Pagination isn't some relict from the 20th century - it is essential. I won't buy any Vyrso title if this doesn't get fixed asap, especially given that they are more expensive than e.g. Kindle books.

Please also note the reports on the other things that should be changed in Vyrso books (same link as above).

"Mach's wie Gott - werde Mensch!" | theolobias.de

Posts 1118
Tom Reynolds | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 30 2011 6:34 AM

While I don't agree that this is a "BUG" because it's obviously intentional I agree with you that page numbers are essential. I often blog about the books I read and I need to include page numbers in my comments so that those with the actual book can refer to it if they want to learn more. Admittedly mass-market books sometimes have different form-factors with different page counts but that's only if they are popular enough to be reprinted differently.

Obviously Logos has no interest in increasing costs in order to add page numbers to books that don't have them. There is a whole list of such books on the wiki (http://wiki.logos.com/Books_Missing_Pagination_and_Other_Indexes) but to my knowledge not one has ever been fixed. Logos has lots of irons in the fire and this isn't a priority. However, to be releasing 15,000 or 25,000 books, most? without page numbers, isn't very helpful IMHO. Perhaps Logos could add this bit of info to the product description (as brief as it is) so we would know what we are getting.

Tom

Posts 759
Tobias Lampert | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 30 2011 7:14 AM

Tom Reynolds:
I don't agree that this is a "BUG" because it's obviously intentional

You're right about that, of course - I just wanted to make sure the Logos staff is reading this thread, since they do so with all threads about bugs! Wink

I wouldn't care if the few books that are already available via Vyrso weren't fixed, although I think that it wouldn't be that much of an effort and although I would consider it only to be fair, since customers can expect Ebooks to come along with pagination (Amazon added it a while ago, so I'd say this is pretty much standard). My concern is, as you mentioned it, more with those 15,000 to 25,000 books that haven't been made available yet. I won't buy any other Vyrso book ever if this feature doesn't get added - Vyrso books already appear to be considerably more expensive than Kindle books, and I'm not willing to spend such an amount of money if I'm not convinced that having an Ebook in e.g. my Logos 4 has some real benefits opposed to having it in any other reader. And as your answer shows, I'm not the only one thinking this way.

With all the risks already connected to the launch of Vyrso (high-priced resources, proprietary file format etc.), I'd recommend Logos makes sure that Vyrso books are 'state of the art'.

"Mach's wie Gott - werde Mensch!" | theolobias.de

Posts 3163
Dominick Sela | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 30 2011 7:50 AM

Well, IMHO, and I say this with all respect, I won't be buying any of the Vyrso books if they don't even have support for page numbers much less anything else. It's not like they are cheap after all, and all I am getting is text that doesn't interact with anything? 

Being able to use them in Logos 4 may have given me a false impression.  If it's largely not more than text, for me who does not have a tablet/reader I now don't really see the value of looking at these resources.  We'll see if Logos comments on the direction of these resources, maybe I have it wrong...

Posts 759
Tobias Lampert | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 30 2011 7:55 AM

Dominick Sela:
Well, IMHO, and I say this with all respect, I won't be buying any of the Vyrso books if they don't even have support for page numbers much less anything else. It's not like they are cheap after all, and all I am getting is text that doesn't interact with anything? 

That's what I'm saying! Smile

"Mach's wie Gott - werde Mensch!" | theolobias.de

Posts 1717
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Bob Pritchett | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 30 2011 11:27 AM

The eBooks sold at Vyrso.com are different from the Logos Editiosn at Logos.com in that they are created by the publishers (as EPUB format eBooks), not by Logos.

Some of them will have page numbers, and some won't, depending on the publisher's practice. Logos does not have the ability to add page numbers to these books if they don't have them; not only are we not creating the electronic book, we don't even have a paper copy to get the page numbers from.

I understand that page numbers are important to many people -- and Logos Editions support them. We go out of our way, and increase our expense, to add them to Logos Editions. We understand they are particularly important for academic purposes.

But, in general, I think we all need to get used to not having them, particularly as we enter a time when books start going direct-to-digital and never have a paper manifestation with numbered pages. We'll need to figure out alternate referencing systems.

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JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 30 2011 12:35 PM

Bob Pritchett:

in general, I think we all need to get used to not having them, particularly as we enter a time when books start going direct-to-digital and never have a paper manifestation with numbered pages. We'll need to figure out alternate referencing systems.

Yes

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Jacob Hantla | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 30 2011 1:30 PM

Bob Pritchett:

But, in general, I think we all need to get used to not having them, particularly as we enter a time when books start going direct-to-digital and never have a paper manifestation with numbered pages. We'll need to figure out alternate referencing systems.

I agree, but I am very happy when they do have them...especially because I am often reading the digital version going through it with somebody for counseling or discipleship. I prefer digital but when they have print, I need to be able to reference the pages. This has been the reason why I used to have major issues using Kindle books (they have since started trying to put page numbers in books).

So I'm glad that the ability is there and that many publishers will provide them if their epub supports it. 

I am very excited that the breadth of digital books that I'll be able to have centrally located in my Logos Library is increasing. 

Jacob Hantla
Pastor/Elder, Grace Bible Church
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Jacob Hantla | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 30 2011 7:34 PM

Bob Pritchett:

The eBooks sold at Vyrso.com are different from the Logos Editiosn at Logos.com in that they are created by the publishers (as EPUB format eBooks), not by Logos.

This new addition of large volumes of works not published by Logos (and potentially creating the ability to create links in books that Logos has published to these newly published resources) makes my suggestion of a year ago all that much more helpful and necessary. http://community.logos.com/forums/p/11689/253311.aspx

 

Jacob Hantla
Pastor/Elder, Grace Bible Church
gbcaz.org

Posts 2212
Damian McGrath | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 30 2011 7:40 PM

Bob,

Do any of the books offered on vyrso have page numbers?

I note that the Amazon version of the Bonhoeffer book is also lacking pagination but the only other Amazon book I checked (Same kind of different as me) does offer pagination.

EPUB books naturally offer the possibility to include pagination. Some publishers include this information, others do not. Some include it in their later offerings but have not modified their earlier source files.

Please ensure that where possible pagination is included.

 

 

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Jacob Hantla | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 30 2011 7:55 PM

Damian McGrath:

Please ensure that where possible pagination is included.

Bob Pritchett:

Some of them will have page numbers, and some won't, depending on the publisher's practice

Jacob Hantla
Pastor/Elder, Grace Bible Church
gbcaz.org

Posts 2212
Damian McGrath | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 30 2011 7:59 PM

Jacob,

Thanks. Obviously I can't read!

Posts 19139
Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 30 2011 8:58 PM

Bob Pritchett:
But, in general, I think we all need to get used to not having them, particularly as we enter a time when books start going direct-to-digital and never have a paper manifestation with numbered pages. We'll need to figure out alternate referencing systems.

The page metaphor will never go away fully for text-based content.

http://designdare.com/-page-flips-are-better-than-infinite-scroll

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JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 30 2011 10:24 PM

Rosie Perera:

The page metaphor will never go away fully for text-based content.

Rosie - 

I agree with some of this sentiment. As someone who took several courses in typography, I have come to appreciate good design... however... one of the advantages of ebooks is that you can adjust the typeface and point size to suit your taste. From a designer's viewpoint this is blasphemous! From someone who likes smaller type in the morning and LARGER type at night, this is a selling point. 

It is also important to consider that people will be consuming this media on a variety of devices. Many of the new tablets are smaller or larger than the iPad. What looks great on a 9.5 inch iPad, would look teeny tiny on an iPhone.

With all of that said, what does a page number really mean, especially if a resource was never actually printed?

The best argument for page numbers came from Tom: "I often blog about the books I read and I need to include page numbers in my comments so that those with the actual book can refer to it if they want to learn more."

Just my 2 cents Smile

 

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DIsciple II | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jun 12 2011 12:48 PM

Bob Pritchett:
But, in general, I think we all need to get used to not having them, particularly as we enter a time when books start going direct-to-digital and never have a paper manifestation with numbered pages. We'll need to figure out alternate referencing systems.

Bob Pritchett:
We understand they are particularly important for academic purposes.

Until alternate referencing systems accepted by academia are in place, the need for page numbering, will not go away,   that said I do understand, if they aren't in the files you are getting, then they are not there.  Till we get there Bob, what a shame, I say, the data is there for you to work with,  simply because we are still in that transitional period and it will be important.   

Maybe we go back to the future with a system of chapter and paragraph numbering for quoting from e-texts.  I envisage the paragraph number would only be made visible when you require it, rather than it being there in the way all the time......just a thought.

Posts 21
TomB | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jun 12 2011 1:07 PM

alabama24:
The best argument for page numbers came from Tom: "I often blog about the books I read and I need to include page numbers in my comments so that those with the actual book can refer to it if they want to learn more."

 

Most digital book readers and Apps that I have used offer a way to search for a word or phrase within the text. If I qoute a book on my blog that is in digital format and someone wishes to read that part, all She has to do is open the book on her ereader and search for the phrase. This feature actually works even better for the spoken word... If I am delivering a sermon and quote a book you are not likely to remember the page number (I am also far less likely to give it in the middle of the sermon). However you will probably remember a few key words or a phrase. Then you can go home open the book and search for it.

Page numbers are not actually as useful as we may think they are. And as digital books become more prevalent and readers become more accustom to their power things like page numbers may become far less important.

Posts 8899
fgh | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jun 12 2011 1:19 PM

TomB:
If I qoute a book on my blog that is in digital format and someone wishes to read that part, all She has to do is open the book on her ereader and search for the phrase.

You're assuming that just because you have the book in electronic format, she does too. In real life, she most likely has it on paper, and won't be able to find the quote unless you give the page number.

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JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jun 12 2011 4:00 PM

TomB:

...all She has to do is open the book on her ereader 

TomB -

The key to the other Tom's comment was "those with the actual book...", which I presume he meant a physical copy - fgh was right to point this out. 

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JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jun 12 2011 4:05 PM

fgh:

In real life, she most likely has it on paper...

fgh - 

I think that you are right but this is QUICKLY changing. Amazon sold more ebooks last quarter than physical ones for the first time. I think that that is probably a little inflated because some indie authors have "made it big" by selling short stories dirt cheap. Nevertheless, ebooks are poised to decimate the paper book industry in the near future. Stores which did not take this seriously enough [i.e. "Borders" in the U.S.] have felt the consequences of their inaction.

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Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jun 12 2011 4:20 PM

alabama24:

fgh:

In real life, she most likely has it on paper...

fgh - 

I think that you are right but this is QUICKLY changing. Amazon sold more ebooks last quarter than physical ones for the first time. I think that that is probably a little inflated because some indie authors have "made it big" by selling short stories dirt cheap. Nevertheless, ebooks are poised to decimate the paper book industry in the near future. Stores which did not take this seriously enough [i.e. "Borders" in the U.S.] have felt the consequences of their inaction.

This is definitely true of trade books, but I wonder how long it's going to take for scholarly books to catch up? I would really prefer to do all my scholarly research in digital books, but those ones are never the ones that are available in Kindle or other e-book formats. The few others that are available you have to be a member of an academic research library in order to gain access to (e.g., via Oxford Scholarship Online). Questia and Highbeam Research are two exceptions, where the general public can pay for a membership and gain access to all the books they have in their format. But I'd love to be able to get all these books in Logos format since I like the research tools Logos gives me (note-taking, highlighting, integration with the rest of my library).

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