License Agreement
This is a copy of the
current license that is displayed in our software.
The short version is
this: "The license goes with the user. Every user must
purchase their own package. If you have a work machine and a laptop and
they are both yours for your personal use, you may load it on both for your
personal use - because the license goes
with the user." Can you purchase one package and have two
people use it? No. The license goes with the user. The license is a single user
license.
All licenses are single
human being licenses. We do not offer site-licenses, shared licenses, co-op
licenses, library licenses or multi-user licenses. A church or
company may be the purchaser and thus legal owner of the license grant,
but may only allow one human being to be the beneficiary of this license grant.
I'm confused, this license
agreement allows:
...two separate personal computers
as long as only one is used at a time.
And am I reading this right?
One person, only the licensed
person may use the software. Any other person, including a spouse, children, fellow
pastors, curious friends who wish to use the software in the absence of the
licensee would do so illegally.
Rob
Comments
-
I use Logos on my desktop and laptop. My wife avoids computers like the plague and my daughter is only 3, so I am the only user.
It's my guess that limiting the license to the individual is to avoid my putting logos on 2 computers, but someone else is the primary user.
It's still a good question that I'm sure applies to others. I would also be interested in the answer.
Ron
0 -
RQuanstrom said:
And am I reading this right?
One person, only the licensed
person may use the software. Any other person, including a spouse, children, fellow
pastors, curious friends who wish to use the software in the absence of the
licensee would do so illegally.I'm not a lawyer but it does appear to prohibit immediate family members living in the home to make use of it when the licensed owner is not at the computer.
I recently queried in another forum post (Logos on Kindle, I think).....
Do dual boot systems like MacOs/Windows constitute two installations?
What about "cloud computing?"
What about users who have a church office desktop, home desktop & a laptop for trips?
Then there are those titles useful for homeschooling that contain actual lessons:
Nehemiah Institute Worldview Collection
WallBuilders American Foundations Digital Library
The Christian History Library by F.A.C.E.
Is it illegal to use allow your highschooler to use these titles?
I appreciate the need for Logos to remain profitable. The base packages are an incredible value. If there is no income there can be no product. I've seen bootleg software, on eBay, of Quickverse, Biblesoft, Wordsearch and even Bibleworks. Piracy can wipe out a company. Logos has to do a balancing act between usability and vulnerability. So far I feel they have been more than fair to licensed users. But the current wording of the EULA does appear to forbid several good uses.(I'm still wondering how someone buys illegal Bible study software. OR steals a Bible at church. I have seen both occur.)
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
0 -
RonaldQuick said:
I use Logos on my desktop and laptop. My wife avoids computers like the plague and my daughter is only 3, so I am the only user.
It's my guess that limiting the license to the individual is to avoid my putting logos on 2 computers, but someone else is the primary user.
It's still a good question that I'm sure applies to others. I would also be interested in the answer.
Ron
Ron,
I have my desktop & laptop installations too. My wife , like yours, avoids computers. I have 10 children still at home but I don't take a chance allowing them to mess up my desktop. And I am using my "Bible Study" laptop over 8 hours a day making it impossible for others to use that Logos installation.
I imagine Logos is trying to avoid having a community accessible computer in a church library where the whole staff is sharing one license. Another blatant violation of the spirit and letter of the EULA is somebody selling their laptop with a complete install with licenses synchronized. I have seen this happen on eBay with Wordsearch.
Another possible violation is using a projector in a Bible study group to show a lesson with notes & references. Would creating a Powerpoint presentation with Logos gathered material be legal? Morris Proctor might have special permission but do you? There are so many questions.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
0 -
The licensed owner IS allowed to use libronix for teaching purposes, such as with a projector in a class or church service. Why? Because the licensed owner is controlling the software.
If the owner is contolling the software to teach their children, it's the same idea.
Keep two things in mind:
1. It is not terribly expensive to buy additional copies of the software, at a lower level, for others to use
2. It is possible to transfer the licenses to other users
I frankly think that L has made a sincere attempt to be both clear and fair in their licensing practices, particularly when you consider the packaging discounts.
They could have chosen a different path - to allow for a license where different people could use a single license, but only one person at a time.
This would be helpful for "church library" and "family" applications, and I hope they will seriously consider making that possible. A simple internet-activation link would allow for policing it.
In the meantime, however, THEY DO HAVE THE RIGHT TO DEFINE IT HOWEVER THEY WISH, and I believe it is incumbent on us to respect that.
Over the years, I have purchased about a half-dozen licenses, because of this.=============
Redeeming the time (Eph.5:16+Col.4:5) ... Win 10, iOS & iPadOS 16
Jim Dean0 -
A couple of years ago, during the Libronix Bus Tour, they told us that family members were allowed to share the software.
It helped me 'close the deal' toward purchasing a larger library since my wife could also use it when she wanted to study something.
She's been slooowly learning the software over the past few years. Now I find that she's an ille-gal.
0 -
JimDean said:
They could have chosen a different path - to allow for a license where different people could use a single license, but only one person at a time. This would be helpful for "church library" and "family" applications, and I hope they will seriously consider making that possible.
I don't know the details on this, but I think they must have a site license of some type since I know that some seminaries use Logos. I don't know how it works, but I'd almost wager that there is some form of a site license. BTW: This statement and my dollars and doughnut holes statements might be misunderstood -- especially by this group -- so I'll put a disclaimer here: I never bet on anything, not even if it's a sure thing.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
0 -
JimDean said:
The licensed owner IS allowed to use libronix for teaching purposes, such as with a projector in a class or church service.
I did not know that! Although I don't have need of that capability, it is good to know.
JimDean said:If the owner is controlling the software to teach their children, it's the same idea.
Keep two things in mind:
1. It is not terribly expensive to buy additional copies of the software, at a lower level, for others to useI didn't know that either! Guess I will have to call CS to inquire. I hope more of my kids will find the computer useful for Bible study.
As far as the staff at my church; I don't know what the individual preachers use since you rarely hear their sources from the pulpit (must be that preacher plagiarism issue.) I do know they do excellent preparation. I find they frequently bring up details I learned through my use of Logos. Many of the staff are also Bible college professors so I would be surprised if they don't have Logos.
JimDean said:
Over the years, I have purchased about a half-dozen licensesI have purchased several different releases of Logos dating back to the floppy-disk registration days.but never actually upgraded. Even when I went from Scholar Silver to Gold, I sold one license and purchased another. (I just handled the $99 transfer receipt today.) Logos has been very good at making this affordable. I don't have a "library allowance." I can't write-off the investment on my taxes. I am on a small, fixed retirement income. Still I have a software solution I could never have dreamed of owning.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
0 -
RQuanstrom said:
A couple of years ago, during the Libronix Bus Tour, they told us that family members were allowed to share the software.
It helped me 'close the deal' toward purchasing a larger library since my wife could also use it when she wanted to study something.
She's been slooowly learning the software over the past few years. Now I find that she's an ille-gal.
It will be a sad day if my wife cannot use my Logos digital Library. I can share every other thing with her except Logos, i am not sure how this fits in with the vows i made before God to share all my earthly possession with her. I am not sure European courts will agree with this and most will agree that their wives through great sacrifices and their own personal investment have allowed their husbands to purchase Logos bible software.
I for one do not think this is reasonable or practical, we have been here before so i shall hold my peace & give Logos the benefit of the doubt. I do think that Logos should clarify this matter.
Ted
Dell, studio XPS 7100, Ram 8GB, 64 - bit Operating System, AMD Phenom(mt) IIX6 1055T Processor 2.80 GHZ
0 -
Matthew C Jones said:
I imagine Logos is trying to avoid having a community accessible computer in a church library where the whole staff is sharing one license. Another blatant violation of the spirit and letter of the EULA is somebody selling their laptop with a complete install with licenses synchronized. I have seen this happen on eBay with Wordsearch.
Fair enough, i do agree with the above comments. I don't think the whole staff in a church should be sharing one license.
Do Logos not have the option for group or institutional licenses at a higher price than individual purchases? My wife works in a school & they will have to purchase network licenses in addition to individual software packages if they want to make resources available to the whole school network, or even a part of it, rather than just on an individual PC. The licenses cost more depending on the size of the school or the number of PCs that will be able to access the software at one time. In other words a church with 5 pastors sharing access to Logos would pay perhaps double the cost of the normal purchase price, but not 5 times the amount & they would own it as a church resource, not personally. ie. if one of those pastors left to move to a different church they would not take Logos with them. It would belong to the church, not the individual pastors. The church would then make it available to it's staff / volunteers etc depending on what level of license access it purchased.
Ted
Dell, studio XPS 7100, Ram 8GB, 64 - bit Operating System, AMD Phenom(mt) IIX6 1055T Processor 2.80 GHZ
0 -
Matthew C Jones said:
I imagine Logos is trying to avoid having a community accessible computer in a church library where the whole staff is sharing one license. Another blatant violation of the spirit and letter of the EULA is somebody selling their laptop with a complete install with licenses synchronized. I have seen this happen on eBay with Wordsearch.
That is what I would think - but I know that the library where my wife and I worked for many years had LOGOS materials in its collection - I don't know how they managed that?
Floyd
Blessings,
FloydPastor-Patrick.blogspot.com
0 -
Floyd Johnson said:Matthew C Jones said:
I imagine Logos is trying to avoid having a community accessible computer in a church library where the whole staff is sharing one license. Another blatant violation of the spirit and letter of the EULA is somebody selling their laptop with a complete install with licenses synchronized. I have seen this happen on eBay with Wordsearch.
That is what I would think - but I know that the library where my wife and I worked for many years had LOGOS materials in its collection - I don't know how they managed that?
Floyd
I haven't seen that with Logos software but all across America colleges abuse the Fair Use doctrine of the copyright law. They photocopy a whole textbook (current edition) and sell it in their bookstore at retail prices for class use with the "fair use" notice in the front cover. That is clearly abuse. Many people today think nothing of copying music, software or movies. When I worked in the library at Bible college and we never had anything duplicated. Of course we didn't have students on computers in the 70's. [8-|]
I'm happy to say our church buys that annual license "thingy" for using photocopied music in the choir.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
0 -
Ted Hans said:
It will be a sad day if my wife cannot use my Logos digital Library.
Provided you have only one wife i.e. you need 2 licences for 2 wives and their children [:D]
I have 5 Operating systems on two computers but I am the single user of those computers (my wife uses the older Logos 2.x on her computer). I do a lot of installations of Libronix because I periodically re-install two of the OS's. But I follow the spirit of the EULA where it states " the Software and Content are in use on only one computer at any time." and "that person may also use the Software and Content on a portable or home computer." But this wording should be revised because one computer is assumed to be a work computer, whilst both are mine for personal use - somewhat contradictory.
Also think about this, if I define a new User on my computer they also get to use Libronix, so it is installed for all users not just the primary user/admin ...
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
0 -
Dave Hooton said:
Also think about this, if I define a new User on my computer they also get to use Libronix, so it is installed for all users not just the primary user/admin
You know you could install it so only YOU can use it. But even with security measures two of my kids have hacked into my side before. [{][co][}]
I finally had to get my kid brother (Amazon.com ISP security wiz) to really secure the computer.[Y]
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
0 -
Matthew C Jones said:
You know you could install it so only YOU can use it.
The point was that Logos permit that to happen - they could fix it with Vista/Win7 so it installs only for the primary user.
Matthew C Jones said:I finally had to get my kid brother (Amazon.com ISP security wiz) to really secure the computer.
Even with strong Admin passwords and your children restricted to Standard/Limited accounts, they can change their account to an Admin!
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
0 -
If you REALLY want to secure your computer ... ie not allow access to your work by anyone else ... use a removable hard drive. One for you ... another for everyone else. Keep yours in a safe ... C4 also acts as an effective deterrent.[:#]
=============
Redeeming the time (Eph.5:16+Col.4:5) ... Win 10, iOS & iPadOS 16
Jim Dean0 -
JimDean said:
use a removable hard drive
Ah, yes! The answer to teen rebellion in the household --> "please can i have the hard drive to hack!" [:)]
But the point was not to protect my/your work as to restrict the children's access to certain programs.
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
0 -
JimDean said:
C4 also acts as an effective deterrent.
I think it was Mark Twain who said he would keep put teen agers into a barrel and feed them with through holes in the sides of the barrels. When they turned 18, he would fill up the holes. Having raised three sons, I can understand his sentiment.
Before my wife and I were married I wanted two children and she wanted four. That is absolutely true. So we compromised - now we don't want any.[;)] That thought came to me in a Sunday School class some 28 years ago.
Blessings,
Floyd
Blessings,
FloydPastor-Patrick.blogspot.com
0 -
Dave Hooton said:Ted Hans said:
It will be a sad day if my wife cannot use my Logos digital Library.
Provided you have only one wife i.e. you need 2 licences for 2 wives and their children
Hi Dave,
What bible do you use? An interesting one i can see [:D] talk about a death wish, an early grave. A voice would be heard weeping with loud lamentation in the Logos forum saying Ted is no more & his mother refuses to be comforted but his wives are glad that he is gone for they have killed him.[:(]
Sir T.
Dell, studio XPS 7100, Ram 8GB, 64 - bit Operating System, AMD Phenom(mt) IIX6 1055T Processor 2.80 GHZ
0 -
Post withdrawn.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
0 -
Hi George, okay sorry do me a favour by editing the reference to you from my post on your quote & i will do the same. I do like you & should be thoughful next time. I was referencing the King Henry joke when you said off with their heads(wives heads). The Anglican joke.
Sir T.
Dell, studio XPS 7100, Ram 8GB, 64 - bit Operating System, AMD Phenom(mt) IIX6 1055T Processor 2.80 GHZ
0 -
It's a sad day when I have to provide security measures to insure that the wife and kids can't use my bible program.
0 -
RQuanstrom said:
It's a sad day when I have to provide security measures to insure that the wife and kids can't use my bible program.
I sincerely hope you aren't serious. While an extremely literal reading of the EULA may indicate such, I hardly think Logos is going to get upset if your wife and kids use your resources. If you were to open up a store-front and advertise "Logos Resources for use. 24 computers loaded and waiting" using the same license for each, then I think they might have something to say. Use your head. That's the danger of literalism and why I sometimes take things very literally simply for the sake of humor.
Tell your wife and kids they can study the Bible using Logos all they want. I don't think Bob will object.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
0 -
RQuanstrom said:
It's a sad day when I have to provide security measures to insure that the wife and kids can't use my bible program.
George Somsel said:I sincerely hope you aren't serious. While an extremely literal reading of the EULA may indicate such, I hardly think Logos is going to get upset if your wife and kids use your resources. If you were to open up a store-front and advertise "Logos Resources for use. 24 computers loaded and waiting" using the same license for each, then I think they might have something to say. Use your head. That's the danger of literalism and why I sometimes take things very literally simply for the sake of humor.
Tell your wife and kids they can study the Bible using Logos all they want. I don't think Bob will object
Okay George last time you were right on the EULA & i should have listened. So this time i will take your word on this, & thanks for your kind response to my previous post.
Sir T.
Dell, studio XPS 7100, Ram 8GB, 64 - bit Operating System, AMD Phenom(mt) IIX6 1055T Processor 2.80 GHZ
0 -
Fwiw, imo you're ok letting your wife & kids use it, as long as none of them are Bible college students or in some kind of fulltime ministry.
"Joint property" laws apply for things like L licences in estate proceedings - but a "license" is not inherently joint property - ask any policeman or game warden.
After having many phone conversations about this with L staff over the years, and seeing the text of the Eula change more than once, it's obvious that they are stuggling to find a fair approach.
Keep in mind they have obligations to the people who license the books to them, to enforce a policy that is fair to the copyright owner.
My recommendation is, buy at least one extra license, maybe for the Bible Study pkg, just to be fair.
So, my "opinion" is that if you adhere to the #computers rule, and if there is rarely or never a time that you and your spouse are using it at the same time, and none of the other users are doing it as a "profession", as george said, I doubt that Bob would object - in person. However, I'm 99% confident thati pressed, he WiLL "lay down the law" in writing. And it won't be pretty.
It might be wise to consider terminating this thread for that very reason :-)=============
Redeeming the time (Eph.5:16+Col.4:5) ... Win 10, iOS & iPadOS 16
Jim Dean0 -
RQuanstrom said:
It's a sad day when I have to provide security measures to insure that the wife and kids can't use my bible program.
HeeHee [:P]
My kids aren't trying to use Logos. They are usually doing something that downloads spyware or ActiveX controls like Yahoo questions, Club Penguin, Facebook, Roblox, Sketchup, Google earth...................THATS why I got the dobermans chained to the desktop.
My wife likes BOOKS, not computers. She was more than a little unhappy when I sold The Complete Biblical Library. If I can only show her Logos does all that and more. Too bad it's all on computer
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
0 -
George Somsel said:
While an extremely literal reading of the EULA may indicate such, I hardly think Logos is going to get upset if your wife and kids use your resources. If you were to open up a store-front and advertise "Logos Resources for use. 24 computers loaded and waiting" using the same license for each, then I think they might have something to say. Use your head. That's the danger of literalism and why I sometimes take things very literally simply for the sake of humor.
So the Literal meaning of the EULA says we can't share the software with family.
But the Dynamic Equivalence says
George Somsel said:your wife and kids they can study the Bible using Logos all they want. I don't think Bob will object
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
0 -
Matthew C Jones said:George Somsel said:
While an extremely literal reading of the EULA may indicate such, I hardly think Logos is going to get upset if your wife and kids use your resources. If you were to open up a store-front and advertise "Logos Resources for use. 24 computers loaded and waiting" using the same license for each, then I think they might have something to say. Use your head. That's the danger of literalism and why I sometimes take things very literally simply for the sake of humor.
So the Literal meaning of the EULA says we can't share the software with family.
But the Dynamic Equivalence says
George Somsel said:your wife and kids they can study the Bible using Logos all they want. I don't think Bob will object
I prefer to call it the "non-Pharisaical meaning."
23 One sabbath he was going through the grainfields; and as they made their way his disciples began to pluck heads of grain. 24 The Pharisees said to him, “Look, why are they doing what is not lawful on the sabbath?” 25 And he said to them, “Have you never read what David did when he and his companions were hungry and in need of food? 26 He entered the house of God, when Abiathar was high priest, and ate the bread of the Presence, which it is not lawful for any but the priests to eat, and he gave some to his companions.” 27 Then he said to them, “The sabbath was made for humankind, and not humankind for the sabbath; 28 so the Son of Man is lord even of the sabbath.”george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
0 -
JimDean said:
"Joint property" laws apply for things like L licences in estate proceedings - but a "license" is not inherently joint property - ask any policeman or game warden.
Despite the caveat that "Joint property" laws apply for things like L licences in estate proceedings, I have checked on this from my end - a "license" can also be an inherently joint property, the possibility does exist. Perhaps our laws in the UK are different from the US.
Hi Jim, i am not sure who you were directing your post to, if it was to everyone on this thread or someone in particular. It may be helpful to include a quote so that one can follow who & what is being responded to.
Every Blessings.
Ted
Dell, studio XPS 7100, Ram 8GB, 64 - bit Operating System, AMD Phenom(mt) IIX6 1055T Processor 2.80 GHZ
0 -
Hi, Ted:
The post was not directed to anyone in particular, just an attempt to defuse the tension and to help people to be content with what the Lord has provided them through the hard work of the folks at Libronix, and through the many godly people who've written the books we enjoy.
I sometimes get in trouble when I attempt to couch comments in a humorous manner ... I should forbear that tendency in open forums. I had no intention to attack or insult anyone.
Libronix has chosen, in *their* EULA, to specifically exclude other members of the family. There were some comments about this. I was trying to point out that the "joint property" laws (in the US ... I don't know about other countries) apply to physical objects, etc ... but cannot hold sway over the rights conferred by third parties.
I agree with you ... a license CAN also be inherently joint property ... but ONLY if the grantor permits it to be. The grantor retains any rights that they wish ... they are the true "owners" of the object (software, etc) that is being licensed. That's why we don't get the source code when we buy Libronix (humor intended here).
Thanks for your courteous and gracious reply. I hope I've clarified what I meant.
In His service, and yours ...
Jim
=============
Redeeming the time (Eph.5:16+Col.4:5) ... Win 10, iOS & iPadOS 16
Jim Dean0 -
JimDean said:
Hi, Ted:
The post was not directed to anyone in particular, just an attempt to defuse the tension and to help people to be content with what the Lord has provided them through the hard work of the folks at Libronix, and through the many godly people who've written the books we enjoy.
I sometimes get in trouble when I attempt to couch comments in a humorous manner ... I should forbear that tendency in open forums. I had no intention to attack or insult anyone.
Libronix has chosen, in *their* EULA, to specifically exclude other members of the family. There were some comments about this. I was trying to point out that the "joint property" laws (in the US ... I don't know about other countries) apply to physical objects, etc ... but cannot hold sway over the rights conferred by third parties.
I agree with you ... a license CAN also be inherently joint property ... but ONLY if the grantor permits it to be. The grantor retains any rights that they wish ... they are the true "owners" of the object (software, etc) that is being licensed. That's why we don't get the source code when we buy Libronix (humor intended here).
Thanks for your courteous and gracious reply. I hope I've clarified what I meant.
In His service, and yours ...
Jim
JimDean said:I sometimes get in trouble when I attempt to couch comments in a humorous manner ... I should forbear that tendency in open forums. I had no intention to attack or insult anyone.
No i did not think this of you, no never, no never! I thought perhaps b/cos i responded to George's post to RQuanstrom i may have been mistaken/ confused for RQuanstrom. I saw George's post to RQuanstrom & thought that settles it for me & responded to the effect to let my thoughts known.
Thanks for showing maturity and indulging me in the way you have handled this in Christian charity. I hope i do the same to others.
Yours in Christ,
Ted
Dell, studio XPS 7100, Ram 8GB, 64 - bit Operating System, AMD Phenom(mt) IIX6 1055T Processor 2.80 GHZ
0 -
RQuanstrom said:
This is a copy of the
current license that is displayed in our software.The short version is
this: "The license goes with the user. Every user must
purchase their own package. If you have a work machine and a laptop and
they are both yours for your personal use, you may load it on both for your
personal use - because the license goes
with the user." Can you purchase one package and have two
people use it? No. The license goes with the user. The license is a single user
license.All licenses are single
human being licenses. We do not offer site-licenses, shared licenses, co-op
licenses, library licenses or multi-user licenses. A church or
company may be the purchaser and thus legal owner of the license grant,
but may only allow one human being to be the beneficiary of this license grant.I'm confused, this license
agreement allows:...two separate personal computers
as long as only one is used at a time.And am I reading this right?
One person, only the licensed
person may use the software. Any other person, including a spouse, children, fellow
pastors, curious friends who wish to use the software in the absence of the
licensee would do so illegally.Rob
Rob, you'll note that when the EULA discusses single person use, it does so in the context of "site-licenses, shared licenses, co-op licenses, library licenses or multi-user licenses." I don't believe that Logos was thinking particularly of a home setting here, it seems to be contemplating a place where multiple people go to to study and/or work.It prohibits a library (even a church library) from having one instance of the software and let anyone use it. That would violate the EULA -- even if only one person used it at a time. It would also violate the EULA to step out of your office
every Thursday from 10 to 1, so your Youth Pastor could get his lesson
ready. He would need to buy his own copy.By the letter of the law, here, you're right: only you may use the software -- not even your spouse or children. But I don't think the spirit of the law is quite so strict. I don't think Logos would have a problem with immediate family members making occasional use of Libronix, or in allowing a fellow pastor or a curious friend to 'demo' your copy (note the 30 day provision in General Provisions #4). But the EULA certainly does not grant them the right to use it.
Further, if one would argue that 'personal use' includes 'immediate family members living in the home,' when it comes to allowing them to use the software, the license grant allows only one instance of Libronix to be running at any one time. Technically, you couldn't have it open on your desktop, the same time your wife was doing her devotions (even if you were away from your desk).
It would be helpful if Logos would clarify this point in their EULA.
(My thoughts above, should not be construed as rendering an opinion as to the law.)
Help links: WIKI; Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)
0 -
Arrgghhh! I hate this topic. :-)
We have lots of heated discussions about this internally. Every other week we get the desperate-to-be-legal-and-ethical user who calls to confirm that they can install the software on their desktop and notebook computer. The other weeks we hear about the every-loophole-finding user who wants to parse our latest statement on the EULA to let them install the software on every machine they see, and to charge people for the service.
I am not going to answer all your questions. Ever. I don't want to. I don't want a clean-cut policy, because it just annoys the honest user who has a legitimate situation while doing nothing to stop the person who justifies-to-themselves whatever behavior they want.
So what follow is still not "the final answer." It's a guide, similar to what I tell our CS people. (Who all wish I wouldn't give them discretion, but would instead make an easy-to-refer-to policy. :-) )
We license the software to one user.
If you are one user with 10 computers, because you run a Mac, Windows, notebook, netbook, desktop, church, home, and three flavors of Linux, I don't care. You're just one user, albeit with too many computers.
(People call up and say "how many computers can I put it on?" We don't care, if they're all YOUR computers. When we say "3", as we used to, for convenience, we'd get people who called with lengthy and unnecessary explanations for why they owned four computers. We'd also get people who would install it on the Pastor, Youth Pastor, and Sunday School Teacher's computers. And we'd say that was wrong, and they'd say "You said three computers for one owner, and the church is the owner, so it's legal to put it on three computers used by people who work at the church." I say, that's abusing the license.)
What about my spouse? What about my child?
Well, now it depends. Are you and your spouse "one user"? I know lots of people who have a single email address like JoeAndMary@somemail.com. They have one computer, one email address, one copy of Windows, (one car? one cell phone?) etc. To me, they're "one user." Same thing when little Joey uses the family computer.
But if we extend the license to "officially" allow family use, we get (actual) scenarios like: Joe and Mary are both ordained ministers who attend and preach at different churches on Sunday morning. Each has an office, their own computer, their own salary and budget, and even their own church secretary. This, to me, doesn't feel like "one user". This feels like two users.
We also get Pastor Joe who has a 22 year old son Joe, Jr. in seminary, or a 35 year old son who is a pastor across the country. We've had people tell us they don't need multiple licenses, because they're family members. But Pastor Joe and grown-up Joe, Jr. seem like two users to me.
What if the user is a church, not a person?
It's great if the church wants to buy the software so the pastor doesn't have to buy it with their own funds. But that doesn't mean everyone who works at or attends the church is a legal user of the software (as some have tried to argue). It's still for "one person user"; thay can be Pastor Joe, and if Pastor Joe leaves, you can have him uninstall it and let new Pastor Mark use it instead. But we don't do site or organization licenses -- we license to a (human) user, even if an institution is the purchaser.
In the future, our software will use more web resources. You will be able to log into these resources -- and your own content -- at Logos.com using an email address and password. Our interaction will be with this "one user" who logs in, and who has one username, one email address, one mailing address, one name, one credit card, and one password. One set of note files, prayer lists, and reading plans. "One user."
I hope this helps. For the record, this email is not a replacement of the EULA or a new policy. It's just how I think about it, and how I encourage our staff to think about it.
-- Bob
0 -
Bob Pritchett said:
Well, now it depends. Are you and your spouse "one user"? I know lots of people who have a single email address like JoeAndMary@somemail.com. They have one computer, one email address, one copy of Windows, (one car? one cell phone?) etc. To me, they're "one user."
Thanks Bob for the clarification, i liar not that is me above in your quote. I did not find anything disagreeable in your explanation.
Kind Regards
Ted
Dell, studio XPS 7100, Ram 8GB, 64 - bit Operating System, AMD Phenom(mt) IIX6 1055T Processor 2.80 GHZ
0 -
<!--
/* Style Definitions */
p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal
{mso-style-parent:"";
margin:0in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
mso-pagination:widow-orphan;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman";
mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";}
@page Section1
{size:8.5in 11.0in;
margin:1.0in 1.25in 1.0in 1.25in;
mso-header-margin:.5in;
mso-footer-margin:.5in;
mso-paper-source:0;}
div.Section1
{page:Section1;}
-->I’m still chuckling after reading Matthew Jones post
regarding reading the EULA literally vs. understanding it’s dynamic equivalence.
Once again Libronix has proved it’s worth to me.
I'm extremely pleased that someone from Libronix posted on
this thread (I knew it was a hot one).I’m really honored that Bob Pritchett answered. Thank you!
I will encourage my wife and kids to use the program as they
please, recognizing that as they grow and develop they will purchase their own
libraries.0 -
Thank you Mr Bob for your clarification.
Your answer addressed every concern raised in this post. I never imagined all those scenarios.
I think Logos has been very fair. I can't wait for the day when all I have to do to use Logos on a brand new computer is to log in and use it! I don't know how you'll keep up with everyone's different libraries. I will just quietly go back to my happy home-use of the software and read the EULA every now and again to keep up with any future developements. Thanks again!Logos 7 Collectors Edition
0 -
Hey Everybody, other than Mr Bob,
Since Bob hates this subject and has answered it really well, we might want to go post on a bunch of other forum topics now. [:-*]
If a kid pokes a bear with a stick too many times, the bear will make the kid wish he hadn't.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
0 -
Bob Pritchett said:
In the future, our software will use more web resources. You will be able to log into these resources -- and your own content -- at Logos.com using an email address and password. Our interaction will be with this "one user" who logs in, and who has one username, one email address, one mailing address, one name, one credit card, and one password. One set of note files, prayer lists, and reading plans. "One user."
Hello Bob,
Thanks for your explaination/ clarification on the EULA. I was going to write to you outside of the forum but was advise to do so by your staff.
Bob could you kindly explain what the quote above from you means? Does this mean the end of Cds/Dvd and the download option currently available?
Does this mean that one's resources will be locked in one's computer drive and one will have to visit the logos web to gain access to these resources? I am not sure what you mean. Thanks in advance for your response
Ted
Dell, studio XPS 7100, Ram 8GB, 64 - bit Operating System, AMD Phenom(mt) IIX6 1055T Processor 2.80 GHZ
0 -
Matthew C Jones said:
Since Bob hates this subject and has answered it really well, we might want to go post on a bunch of other forum topics now.
Should those also be things he hates to discuss? [6] [6] [6]
BTW: The bear went over the mountain.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
0 -
George Somsel said:Matthew C Jones said:
Since Bob hates this subject and has answered it really well, we might want to go post on a bunch of other forum topics now.
Should those also be things he hates to discuss?
BTW: The bear went over the mountain.
There are a few posters who keep telling the rest of us precisely that fact! ...[li]
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
0 -
Bob Pritchett said:
I don't want a clean-cut policy, because it just annoys the honest user who has a legitimate situation while doing nothing to stop the person who justifies-to-themselves whatever behavior they want.
Bob is right. Those who want to get around the rules will find a way.
0 -
Bob Pritchett said:
I am not going to answer all your questions. Ever. I don't want to. I don't want a clean-cut policy, because it just annoys the honest user who has a legitimate situation while doing nothing to stop the person who justifies-to-themselves whatever behavior they want.
Thanks Bob. This does help us users, who are trying to be honest and have integrity about our agreement with you, know where you're coming from as a company.
It amazes me how many pastors and churches ignore EULA's and use software they have no legal right to use. I had to stop a well-meaning church member from installing MS Office Home and Student edition from our church computer, since the MS EULA for the Home and Student edition explicitly excludes non-profits from doing so (he traded it at the store for MS Office Standard edition). The vast majority don't ever read EULA's and many who do, simply don't think the restrictions apply to churches or pastors. Baffling.
Help links: WIKI; Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)
0 -
Ted Hans said:
Bob could you kindly explain what the quote above from you means? Does this mean the end of Cds/Dvd and the download option currently available?
We'll over DVD's for as long as there is a market for them, but even the DVD software will have the ability to "log in" to our servers to connect to more data and other features. You do NOT need to be connected to the Internet to use the software, but you will have an account online for when you do connect.
-- Bob
0 -
Bob Pritchett said:
We'll over DVD's for as long as there is a market for them, but even the DVD software will have the ability to "log in" to our servers to connect to more data and other features. You do NOT need to be connected to the Internet to use the software, but you will have an account online for when you do connect.
Thanks for the info & every regards
Ted
Dell, studio XPS 7100, Ram 8GB, 64 - bit Operating System, AMD Phenom(mt) IIX6 1055T Processor 2.80 GHZ
0 -
Bob Pritchett said:
Ted Hans said:Bob could you kindly explain what the quote above from you means? Does this mean the end of Cds/Dvd and the download option currently available?
We'll over DVD's for as long as there is a market for them, but even the DVD software will have the ability to "log in" to our servers to connect to more data and other features. You do NOT need to be connected to the Internet to use the software, but you will have an account online for when you do connect.
-- Bob
I hope there will always be an offline usability of Logos. There are still missionaries and preachers with little or no internet access. That reminds me of the old days when we mailed in floppy disks for registration. [E]Logos 7 Collectors Edition
0 -
Bob Pritchett said:Ted Hans said:
Bob could you kindly explain what the quote above from you means? Does this mean the end of Cds/Dvd and the download option currently available?
We'll over DVD's for as long as there is a market for them, but even the DVD software will have the ability to "log in" to our servers to connect to more data and other features. You do NOT need to be connected to the Internet to use the software, but you will have an account online for when you do connect.
-- Bob
Please continue to make Logos available for use and not be connected to the Internet. This was a major
reason why I went with Logos and actually a "non-negotiable" on my list
of requirements when I was researching different Bible software
programs.I take my laptop with me whenever I travel and like the freedom to be able to use Logos without using the Internet.
Ron
0 -
The leading sellers in the category of "Computers and Accessories" at Amazon are netbooks. They are sold without DVD drives. The DVD will likely join the ranks of the floppy drive in a few short years. Software sellers in the very near future will need other means of delivering software. Future options, besides downloading, are likely to include flash memory, USB pin drives, etc.
RonaldQuick said:Bob Pritchett said:Ted Hans said:Bob could you kindly explain what the quote above from you means? Does this mean the end of Cds/Dvd and the download option currently available?
We'll over DVD's for as long as there is a market for them, but even the DVD software will have the ability to "log in" to our servers to connect to more data and other features. You do NOT need to be connected to the Internet to use the software, but you will have an account online for when you do connect.
-- Bob
Please continue to make Logos available for use and not be connected to the Internet. This was a major
reason why I went with Logos and actually a "non-negotiable" on my list
of requirements when I was researching different Bible software
programs.0 -
Hi Bob, It's been a year-and-a-half and this topic still lives on. The EULA serves one main purpose, to protect the property and intellectual rights of the product developer/producer. Like every other company, the goal for LOGOS is that if any money is to be made on the product, LOGOS makes it...and that no money is lost due to someone using the product in a way unintended--All Rights Are Reserved...for the benefit of LOGOS. The problem as it now stands in the Land-of-Vagueness is that the current policy's lack of clarity actually costs LOGOS money. My wife said if she had read the forum before I pressed the BUY button she would not have agreed with my making the purchase--and if I had read the forum first, I wouldn't have bothered either. I wonder how many people like myself browsed a little more and went somewhere else--perhaps hundreds. If cheaters are going to cheat, and honest people are going to honestly admit they want the LE package but can't afford $8200 for two copies no matter how much LOGOS says it's a great deal, then make the fuzzy language easier to live with by using the term "reasonable use" and let the user define what "reasonable use" is. One couple sharing one account to sit side by side on individual computers for a morning devotion should not be construed in any way as costing LOGOS a potential sale---being able to do just that would be, however, a great promotional campaign for LOGOS and help to create potentially gigantic gains in sales. As a new user in this tough economy, I want LOGOS to be around for the next 30 years. Your company's success may require the legalists to think outside of the box and make the tool the "family-friendly" and "family-affordable" product it could be. Either way, it is the role of any CEO to lead their company into the future for greater prosperity---please do!
Before I learned of all this mess, I signed my wife and myself up for the seminar in Bellingham in 2011. Now I wish I hadn't. My wife and I want to bring our two MACs with us and sit side by side just like we do every morning, but I can't afford another $4200 to solve the conflict LOGOS puts on households. I wish I could just get a refund of my Christmas gift of 2010 and order a few books through Barnes and Noble. The $4200 in hardcover would look great in my study. We have been using LOGOS for one week. Next week when I am back from dealing with the death of a family member, I will call support to ask for a refund. It's too bad, because the product has great potential. But like you, I'm not interested in being part of an eternal discussion on this matter that just won't go away.
--Oran
0 -
Okay, my wife and I looked at the quality of the product, the amount we already spent (I had bought the biggest and best, which says I always try to do--and she it right) and we decided to call Sales Support. I spoke with Jim Ray Higginson (nice and helpful guy). I downgraded to the Scholar's package and ordered a second Scholar's package for my wife. In the end, I spent less than I originally had spent, but we both get to go to the training session in Bellingham this summer without any concern about EULAs. Eventually we will probably spend more (my wife's tastes in references differs slightly from mine), but we will avoid overlapping whenever possible, since we study side by side.
It's a lot of hoop jumping to get there, and I know that most cannot afford two copies for one household, but then again, we get the benefit of not tripping over each other's notes. Keeping it simple is the best route.
We look forward to visiting Logos in Bellingham and hope the team up there has a great New Year.
O
0 -
Oran Denton said:
It's a lot of hoop jumping to get there, and I know that most cannot afford two copies for one household, but then again, we get the benefit of not tripping over each other's notes. Keeping it simple is the best route.
We look forward to visiting Logos in Bellingham and hope the team up there has a great New Year.
My wife has the Bible Study package and we are both happy not to trip over each other too. We frequently sit side-by-side (right now, in fact.) Her Bible reference needs are a lot less demanding than my wants so there is a disparity in our libraries. But I share interesting finds throughout the day with her.
Are you planning on going to National Camp Logos? I am dreaming of it. I have get to make an anniversary trip to Ireland first. [:D]
fwiw: The way I understand Bob Pritchett's application of the EULA, my wife and I could share one license. But we would also share one set of notes, etc. She deserves her own Logos.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
0 -
Hi Matthew,
Yes, we will be at the National Camp Logos in June. We live in the eastside of the state, but we have relatives in Bellingham to visit while we are there. My wife went to Northern Ireland in 2005. We married in 2006 (my first wife of 28 years died of leukemia), and I've never been to Ireland...but I have a passport!
I agree with you about Bob's application, but our wives should have the freedom of enjoying the software without our false accusations of someone messing with our notes...we all deserve the peace.
After Camp Logos, the world!
0
