License Agreement

This is a copy of the
current license that is displayed in our software.

The short version is
this: "The license goes with the user. Every user must
purchase their own package. If you have a work machine and a laptop and
they are both yours for your personal use, you may load it on both for your
personal use - because the license goes
with the user." Can you purchase one package and have two
people use it? No. The license goes with the user. The license is a single user
license.

All licenses are single
human being licenses. We do not offer site-licenses, shared licenses, co-op
licenses, library licenses or multi-user licenses. A church or
company may be the purchaser and thus legal owner of the license grant,
but may only allow one human being to be the beneficiary of this license grant.

I'm confused, this license
agreement allows:

...two separate personal computers
as long as only one is used at a time.

And am I reading this right?

One person, only the licensed
person may use the software. Any other person, including a spouse, children, fellow
pastors, curious friends who wish to use the software in the absence of the
licensee would do so illegally.

Rob

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Comments

Ronald Quick

I use Logos on my desktop and laptop. My wife avoids computers like the plague and my daughter is only 3, so I am the only user.

It's my guess that limiting the license to the individual is to avoid my putting logos on 2 computers, but someone else is the primary user.

It's still a good question that I'm sure applies to others. I would also be interested in the answer.

Ron

Matthew C Jones

And am I reading this right?

One person, only the licensed
person may use the software. Any other person, including a spouse, children, fellow
pastors, curious friends who wish to use the software in the absence of the
licensee would do so illegally.

I'm not a lawyer but it does appear to prohibit immediate family members living in the home to make use of it when the licensed owner is not at the computer.

I recently queried in another forum post (Logos on Kindle, I think).....

Do dual boot systems like MacOs/Windows constitute two installations?
What about "cloud computing?"
What about users who have a church office desktop, home desktop & a laptop for trips?

Then there are those titles useful for homeschooling that contain actual lessons:
Nehemiah Institute Worldview Collection
WallBuilders American Foundations Digital Library
The Christian History Library by F.A.C.E.
Is it illegal to use allow your highschooler to use these titles?

I appreciate the need for Logos to remain profitable. The base packages are an incredible value. If there is no income there can be no product. I've seen bootleg software, on eBay, of Quickverse, Biblesoft, Wordsearch and even Bibleworks. Piracy can wipe out a company. Logos has to do a balancing act between usability and vulnerability. So far I feel they have been more than fair to licensed users. But the current wording of the EULA does appear to forbid several good uses.

(I'm still wondering how someone buys illegal Bible study software. OR steals a Bible at church. I have seen both occur.)

Matthew C Jones

I use Logos on my desktop and laptop. My wife avoids computers like the plague and my daughter is only 3, so I am the only user.

It's my guess that limiting the license to the individual is to avoid my putting logos on 2 computers, but someone else is the primary user.

It's still a good question that I'm sure applies to others. I would also be interested in the answer.

Ron

Ron,

I have my desktop & laptop installations too. My wife , like yours, avoids computers. I have 10 children still at home but I don't take a chance allowing them to mess up my desktop. And I am using my "Bible Study" laptop over 8 hours a day making it impossible for others to use that Logos installation.

I imagine Logos is trying to avoid having a community accessible computer in a church library where the whole staff is sharing one license. Another blatant violation of the spirit and letter of the EULA is somebody selling their laptop with a complete install with licenses synchronized. I have seen this happen on eBay with Wordsearch.

Another possible violation is using a projector in a Bible study group to show a lesson with notes & references. Would creating a Powerpoint presentation with Logos gathered material be legal? Morris Proctor might have special permission but do you? There are so many questions.

Jim Dean

The licensed owner IS allowed to use libronix for teaching purposes, such as with a projector in a class or church service. Why? Because the licensed owner is controlling the software.
If the owner is contolling the software to teach their children, it's the same idea.

Keep two things in mind:
1. It is not terribly expensive to buy additional copies of the software, at a lower level, for others to use
2. It is possible to transfer the licenses to other users

I frankly think that L has made a sincere attempt to be both clear and fair in their licensing practices, particularly when you consider the packaging discounts.

They could have chosen a different path - to allow for a license where different people could use a single license, but only one person at a time.
This would be helpful for "church library" and "family" applications, and I hope they will seriously consider making that possible. A simple internet-activation link would allow for policing it.

In the meantime, however, THEY DO HAVE THE RIGHT TO DEFINE IT HOWEVER THEY WISH, and I believe it is incumbent on us to respect that.

Over the years, I have purchased about a half-dozen licenses, because of this.

Rob

A couple of years ago, during the Libronix Bus Tour, they told us that family members were allowed to share the software.

It helped me 'close the deal' toward purchasing a larger library since my wife could also use it when she wanted to study something.

She's been slooowly learning the software over the past few years. Now I find that she's an ille-gal.

George Somsel

They could have chosen a different path - to allow for a license where different people could use a single license, but only one person at a time. This would be helpful for "church library" and "family" applications, and I hope they will seriously consider making that possible.

I don't know the details on this, but I think they must have a site license of some type since I know that some seminaries use Logos. I don't know how it works, but I'd almost wager that there is some form of a site license. BTW: This statement and my dollars and doughnut holes statements might be misunderstood -- especially by this group -- so I'll put a disclaimer here: I never bet on anything, not even if it's a sure thing.

Matthew C Jones

The licensed owner IS allowed to use libronix for teaching purposes, such as with a projector in a class or church service.

I did not know that! Although I don't have need of that capability, it is good to know.

If the owner is controlling the software to teach their children, it's the same idea.

Keep two things in mind:
1. It is not terribly expensive to buy additional copies of the software, at a lower level, for others to use

I didn't know that either! Guess I will have to call CS to inquire. I hope more of my kids will find the computer useful for Bible study.

As far as the staff at my church; I don't know what the individual preachers use since you rarely hear their sources from the pulpit (must be that preacher plagiarism issue.) I do know they do excellent preparation. I find they frequently bring up details I learned through my use of Logos. Many of the staff are also Bible college professors so I would be surprised if they don't have Logos.

Over the years, I have purchased about a half-dozen licenses

I have purchased several different releases of Logos dating back to the floppy-disk registration days.but never actually upgraded. Even when I went from Scholar Silver to Gold, I sold one license and purchased another. (I just handled the $99 transfer receipt today.) Logos has been very good at making this affordable. I don't have a "library allowance." I can't write-off the investment on my taxes. I am on a small, fixed retirement income. Still I have a software solution I could never have dreamed of owning.

Ted Hans

A couple of years ago, during the Libronix Bus Tour, they told us that family members were allowed to share the software.

It helped me 'close the deal' toward purchasing a larger library since my wife could also use it when she wanted to study something.

She's been slooowly learning the software over the past few years. Now I find that she's an ille-gal.

It will be a sad day if my wife cannot use my Logos digital Library. I can share every other thing with her except Logos, i am not sure how this fits in with the vows i made before God to share all my earthly possession with her. I am not sure European courts will agree with this and most will agree that their wives through great sacrifices and their own personal investment have allowed their husbands to purchase Logos bible software.

I for one do not think this is reasonable or practical, we have been here before so i shall hold my peace & give Logos the benefit of the doubt. I do think that Logos should clarify this matter.

Ted

Ted Hans

I imagine Logos is trying to avoid having a community accessible computer in a church library where the whole staff is sharing one license. Another blatant violation of the spirit and letter of the EULA is somebody selling their laptop with a complete install with licenses synchronized. I have seen this happen on eBay with Wordsearch.

Fair enough, i do agree with the above comments. I don't think the whole staff in a church should be sharing one license.

Do Logos not have the option for group or institutional licenses at a higher price than individual purchases? My wife works in a school & they will have to purchase network licenses in addition to individual software packages if they want to make resources available to the whole school network, or even a part of it, rather than just on an individual PC. The licenses cost more depending on the size of the school or the number of PCs that will be able to access the software at one time. In other words a church with 5 pastors sharing access to Logos would pay perhaps double the cost of the normal purchase price, but not 5 times the amount & they would own it as a church resource, not personally. ie. if one of those pastors left to move to a different church they would not take Logos with them. It would belong to the church, not the individual pastors. The church would then make it available to it's staff / volunteers etc depending on what level of license access it purchased.

Ted

Floyd Johnson

I imagine Logos is trying to avoid having a community accessible computer in a church library where the whole staff is sharing one license. Another blatant violation of the spirit and letter of the EULA is somebody selling their laptop with a complete install with licenses synchronized. I have seen this happen on eBay with Wordsearch.

That is what I would think - but I know that the library where my wife and I worked for many years had LOGOS materials in its collection - I don't know how they managed that?

Floyd

Matthew C Jones

I imagine Logos is trying to avoid having a community accessible computer in a church library where the whole staff is sharing one license. Another blatant violation of the spirit and letter of the EULA is somebody selling their laptop with a complete install with licenses synchronized. I have seen this happen on eBay with Wordsearch.

That is what I would think - but I know that the library where my wife and I worked for many years had LOGOS materials in its collection - I don't know how they managed that?

Floyd

I haven't seen that with Logos software but all across America colleges abuse the Fair Use doctrine of the copyright law. They photocopy a whole textbook (current edition) and sell it in their bookstore at retail prices for class use with the "fair use" notice in the front cover. That is clearly abuse. Many people today think nothing of copying music, software or movies. When I worked in the library at Bible college and we never had anything duplicated. Of course we didn't have students on computers in the 70's. [8-|]

I'm happy to say our church buys that annual license "thingy" for using photocopied music in the choir.

Rich DeRuiter

This is a copy of the
current license that is displayed in our software.

The short version is
this: "The license goes with the user. Every user must
purchase their own package. If you have a work machine and a laptop and
they are both yours for your personal use, you may load it on both for your
personal use - because the license goes
with the user." Can you purchase one package and have two
people use it? No. The license goes with the user. The license is a single user
license.

All licenses are single
human being licenses. We do not offer site-licenses, shared licenses, co-op
licenses, library licenses or multi-user licenses. A church or
company may be the purchaser and thus legal owner of the license grant,
but may only allow one human being to be the beneficiary of this license grant.

I'm confused, this license
agreement allows:

...two separate personal computers
as long as only one is used at a time.

And am I reading this right?

One person, only the licensed
person may use the software. Any other person, including a spouse, children, fellow
pastors, curious friends who wish to use the software in the absence of the
licensee would do so illegally.

Rob

Rob, you'll note that when the EULA discusses single person use, it does so in the context of "site-licenses, shared licenses, co-op licenses, library licenses or multi-user licenses." I don't believe that Logos was thinking particularly of a home setting here, it seems to be contemplating a place where multiple people go to to study and/or work.It prohibits a library (even a church library) from having one instance of the software and let anyone use it. That would violate the EULA -- even if only one person used it at a time. It would also violate the EULA to step out of your office
every Thursday from 10 to 1, so your Youth Pastor could get his lesson
ready. He would need to buy his own copy.

By the letter of the law, here, you're right: only you may use the software -- not even your spouse or children. But I don't think the spirit of the law is quite so strict. I don't think Logos would have a problem with immediate family members making occasional use of Libronix, or in allowing a fellow pastor or a curious friend to 'demo' your copy (note the 30 day provision in General Provisions #4). But the EULA certainly does not grant them the right to use it.

Further, if one would argue that 'personal use' includes 'immediate family members living in the home,' when it comes to allowing them to use the software, the license grant allows only one instance of Libronix to be running at any one time. Technically, you couldn't have it open on your desktop, the same time your wife was doing her devotions (even if you were away from your desk).

It would be helpful if Logos would clarify this point in their EULA.

(My thoughts above, should not be construed as rendering an opinion as to the law.)

Bob Pritchett

Arrgghhh! I hate this topic. :-)

We have lots of heated discussions about this internally. Every other week we get the desperate-to-be-legal-and-ethical user who calls to confirm that they can install the software on their desktop and notebook computer. The other weeks we hear about the every-loophole-finding user who wants to parse our latest statement on the EULA to let them install the software on every machine they see, and to charge people for the service.

I am not going to answer all your questions. Ever. I don't want to. I don't want a clean-cut policy, because it just annoys the honest user who has a legitimate situation while doing nothing to stop the person who justifies-to-themselves whatever behavior they want.

So what follow is still not "the final answer." It's a guide, similar to what I tell our CS people. (Who all wish I wouldn't give them discretion, but would instead make an easy-to-refer-to policy. :-) )

We license the software to one user.

If you are one user with 10 computers, because you run a Mac, Windows, notebook, netbook, desktop, church, home, and three flavors of Linux, I don't care. You're just one user, albeit with too many computers.

(People call up and say "how many computers can I put it on?" We don't care, if they're all YOUR computers. When we say "3", as we used to, for convenience, we'd get people who called with lengthy and unnecessary explanations for why they owned four computers. We'd also get people who would install it on the Pastor, Youth Pastor, and Sunday School Teacher's computers. And we'd say that was wrong, and they'd say "You said three computers for one owner, and the church is the owner, so it's legal to put it on three computers used by people who work at the church." I say, that's abusing the license.)

What about my spouse? What about my child?

Well, now it depends. Are you and your spouse "one user"? I know lots of people who have a single email address like JoeAndMary@somemail.com. They have one computer, one email address, one copy of Windows, (one car? one cell phone?) etc. To me, they're "one user." Same thing when little Joey uses the family computer.

But if we extend the license to "officially" allow family use, we get (actual) scenarios like: Joe and Mary are both ordained ministers who attend and preach at different churches on Sunday morning. Each has an office, their own computer, their own salary and budget, and even their own church secretary. This, to me, doesn't feel like "one user". This feels like two users.

We also get Pastor Joe who has a 22 year old son Joe, Jr. in seminary, or a 35 year old son who is a pastor across the country. We've had people tell us they don't need multiple licenses, because they're family members. But Pastor Joe and grown-up Joe, Jr. seem like two users to me.

What if the user is a church, not a person?

It's great if the church wants to buy the software so the pastor doesn't have to buy it with their own funds. But that doesn't mean everyone who works at or attends the church is a legal user of the software (as some have tried to argue). It's still for "one person user"; thay can be Pastor Joe, and if Pastor Joe leaves, you can have him uninstall it and let new Pastor Mark use it instead. But we don't do site or organization licenses -- we license to a (human) user, even if an institution is the purchaser.

In the future, our software will use more web resources. You will be able to log into these resources -- and your own content -- at Logos.com using an email address and password. Our interaction will be with this "one user" who logs in, and who has one username, one email address, one mailing address, one name, one credit card, and one password. One set of note files, prayer lists, and reading plans. "One user."

I hope this helps. For the record, this email is not a replacement of the EULA or a new policy. It's just how I think about it, and how I encourage our staff to think about it.

-- Bob

Ted Hans

Well, now it depends. Are you and your spouse "one user"? I know lots of people who have a single email address like JoeAndMary@somemail.com. They have one computer, one email address, one copy of Windows, (one car? one cell phone?) etc. To me, they're "one user."

Thanks Bob for the clarification, i liar not that is me above in your quote. I did not find anything disagreeable in your explanation.

Kind Regards

Ted

Rob

I’m still chuckling after reading Matthew Jones post
regarding reading the EULA literally vs. understanding it’s dynamic equivalence.

Once again Libronix has proved it’s worth to me.

I'm extremely pleased that someone from Libronix posted on
this thread (I knew it was a hot one).

I’m really honored that Bob Pritchett answered. Thank you!

I will encourage my wife and kids to use the program as they
please, recognizing that as they grow and develop they will purchase their own
libraries.

Matthew C Jones

Thank you Mr Bob for your clarification.

Your answer addressed every concern raised in this post. I never imagined all those scenarios.
I think Logos has been very fair. I can't wait for the day when all I have to do to use Logos on a brand new computer is to log in and use it! I don't know how you'll keep up with everyone's different libraries. I will just quietly go back to my happy home-use of the software and read the EULA every now and again to keep up with any future developements. Thanks again!

Ted Hans

In the future, our software will use more web resources. You will be able to log into these resources -- and your own content -- at Logos.com using an email address and password. Our interaction will be with this "one user" who logs in, and who has one username, one email address, one mailing address, one name, one credit card, and one password. One set of note files, prayer lists, and reading plans. "One user."

Hello Bob,

Thanks for your explaination/ clarification on the EULA. I was going to write to you outside of the forum but was advise to do so by your staff.

Bob could you kindly explain what the quote above from you means? Does this mean the end of Cds/Dvd and the download option currently available?

Does this mean that one's resources will be locked in one's computer drive and one will have to visit the logos web to gain access to these resources? I am not sure what you mean. Thanks in advance for your response

Ted

Ronald Quick

I don't want a clean-cut policy, because it just annoys the honest user who has a legitimate situation while doing nothing to stop the person who justifies-to-themselves whatever behavior they want.

Bob is right. Those who want to get around the rules will find a way.

Bob Pritchett

Bob could you kindly explain what the quote above from you means? Does this mean the end of Cds/Dvd and the download option currently available?

We'll over DVD's for as long as there is a market for them, but even the DVD software will have the ability to "log in" to our servers to connect to more data and other features. You do NOT need to be connected to the Internet to use the software, but you will have an account online for when you do connect.

-- Bob