Works of Alexander Campbell, Barton W. Stone (restoration preachers)

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Jules lamond | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Aug 11 2009 9:07 AM
It's great to have scholarly thinkers and their "interpretation" insights, but I would be very careful to give them a tad more credence that the actual Word of God. God speaks for Himself, not mankind. I think that is an accurate depiction of what the restoration movement in the USA tried to convey as it moved away from creeds and human institutions to God's written Word.
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Calvin Habig | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Aug 11 2009 10:26 AM

Jules:

I could not agree with you more.  That is what the founders of the Stone-Campbell movement cried for & tried to get the church to do. The exact same thing could be said of the writings of John Piper, John MacArthur, A.W. Tozer, John Calvin, Martin Luther, and many of the other eminent Christian thinkers whose writings are made available in this format.  We must always keep in mind that this is Logos BIBLE software and thank God for all the tools it brings for the purpose of helping us study the Word of God firsthand.

 

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Aug 11 2009 2:27 PM

Matthew C Jones:
I can do this. Is there a "clearing house" to know what projects others might be working on so there is no duplication?

I would like to see Logos maintain such a clearing house and to maintain a single site from which the most current versions were available. It would appear that they have established a pattern for such a site with the Sermons. However, I don't know what copyright concerns there might be to such a site.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Friedrich | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Aug 11 2009 3:17 PM

Jules lamond:
It's great to have scholarly thinkers and their "interpretation" insights, but I would be very careful to give them a tad more credence that the actual Word of God. God speaks for Himself, not mankind. I think that is an accurate depiction of what the restoration movement in the USA tried to convey as it moved away from creeds and human institutions to God's written Word.

sigh, have been off the forum for a while. missed it. But got work done!

Jules, not sure what the context was for what you have said.  On the one hand, I might agree with you that people elevate certain teachers to near infallible status, on all fronts.  Certainly each denomination and non-denominational denomination (wink wink) has canonized their favorites, and seem to rely on their writings rather than researching the depths of scripture.  On the other hand, I find people within churches I have been who are loathe to use "a book written by men" and only want us to teach the Bible.  But while there are concerns to relying on other's works, I found that hardline approach a bit odd: after all, people are gifted by God with teaching and proclaiming.  And by its very nature that teaching and proclaiming involves interpretation, illustration, application.  Whether spoken or written down, they have done exegetical study (or not!) and applied hermeneutical principles.  If they are to teach, somebody has to be taught.  And I can be taught in person or on the page.  And I always try to check out their hold on truth the best I can. 

ON CULTS: maybe I missed a nuance, but I don't get offended at all that some Mormons and Christadelphians etc have been influenced by renegade Restorationists.  They have.  It doesn't imply that the Christian Church is a cult, or that their beliefs naturally lead to cultish behavior (I know that for a fact: our beliefs lead us to argue incessantly about whether to build a gate at the front of the lot, or whether we should install A/C or not.  No time after that for strange theological trends and behaviors.  :)

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Posts 8
Jules lamond | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Aug 11 2009 5:09 PM

Daniel,

I was just saying that it is God who: (a) teaches [Hebrews 10:15-16]  (b) has given us all things to live this life [2 Peter 1:2-4]. An over reliance on human wisdom detracts and distracts from the truth of what He [God] wants to convey to us.

Frankly, I do appreciate what men have contributed to educating the populace utilizing God's word, however I do not elevate or substitute their thought processes above God's own. That's why we have so much division in Christendom.

Logos is a great tool. It has forced me to place more emphasis on the written word of God and discount, for the most part, the theology of mankind. The Bible is absolutely true and correct. I can't say that for the wisdom of man.

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Friedrich | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Aug 11 2009 5:40 PM

Thank you for clarifying your perspective a bit more.  And I think it is vital that people are equipped and encouraged to dive into God's Word and meditate on it and study it and live it.  I am finding less and less people that feel confident making their way around in it.

If I may, would you mind weighing in on what role "teachers" gifted so by the Spirit have to the wider body of Christ?  Is it possible they would have insight that a non-teacher (so gifted and so leading/serving God's church)?  Would it possibly be arrogant or shortsighted for a person to not seek the wisdom of a gifted teacher, and instead think that God will give that individual truth with no need for learning at the feet of others?  I am not trying to be too leading, but it is something I have wrestled a bit with in the past.  I myself hold in uneasy tension a belief that I SHOULD expect to be taught by others (as one member of the body works for the benefit of another, all under the guidance of the HS) and that at the same time, I would be a bit irresponsible (to say the least) if I just threw my hat in with a teacher, never questioning their teaching and never growing in my own personal study and contemplation, or that God might use me to see something in Scripture overlooked by that person.

 

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Aug 11 2009 9:10 PM

Jules lamond:
Logos is a great tool. It has forced me to place more emphasis on the written word of God and discount, for the most part, the theology of mankind. The Bible is absolutely true and correct. I can't say that for the wisdom of man.

Agree!

Theology is just man trying to explain God. Can any man ever really do that?  Nope.

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Posts 483
Gary Butner, Th.D. | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Sep 22 2009 9:43 PM

Cal, I am a member of the Restoration Movement, and would like to express my gratitude for your work in making these resources available. There is considerable misunderstanding concerning the RM, and hopefully these works will shed light on the subject. Hopefully, the following will help.

When I became a Christian in 1971 one of my first prayers was to ask for more knowledge of the Bible. That very week I was lead to a member of the RM, who had opened a small mission and seminary on the edge of the ghetto. He would laugh and say, "My school is slightly smaller than Jesus' little seminary."  Dr. Welsh had earned doctorates in literature, law, psychology, and two in theology.

The point I want to make is the Restoration Movement's high view of Scripture. He said in a seminary the students study about the Bible, and not the Bible. Under Welsh, Bible 101 consisted of a personal trip with him from Genesis 1:1 to the end of Revelation.  It seems in every chapter he would ask, "What does that verse say?" I would reply, "I think it says ....," and he would respond, "I didn't ask what you think, but what the passage says." I would then say, "In my opinion it says ......." He would say, "I didn't ask for your opinion, but only what the passage says." There were days I would argue with him, and he would respond, "Well, Jesus has done so much for me I am going to give Him my best and not my least." I cannot tell you how many times I had to pray, eat crow, apologize. I learned there a major difference in studying the Bible and studying about it. Years later it was obvious to me Welsh was using the Bible to form a psychological image of Christ in his students.  It was a very hard and difficult journey, but one I cannot forget.

Posts 483
Gary Butner, Th.D. | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Sep 23 2009 5:56 PM

Please excuse the incoherent rambling in my post. I have Parkinson's, and ofterntimes that is the result.

Grace and peace,

Gary Butner

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Friedrich | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Sep 23 2009 6:40 PM

Gary Butner:

Please excuse the incoherent rambling in my post. I have Parkinson's, and ofterntimes that is the result.

Grace and peace,

Gary Butner

Hardly thought you incoherent!

 

 for a little plug: I would like to see the Encyclopedia of the Stone-Campbell Movement in Logos.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Sep 23 2009 11:43 PM

Matthew C Jones:
Theology is just man trying to explain God. Can any man ever really do that?  Nope.

Funny, I thought theology is humanity's attempt to explain their experience of God - an elusive but more achievable goal.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Sep 23 2009 11:52 PM

Gary Butner:
The point I want to make is the Restoration Movement's high view of Scripture. He said in a seminary the students study about the Bible, and not the Bible. Under Welsh, Bible 101 consisted of a personal trip with him from Genesis 1:1 to the end of Revelation.  It seems in every chapter he would ask, "What does that verse say?" I would reply, "I think it says ....," and he would respond, "I didn't ask what you think, but what the passage says." I would then say, "In my opinion it says ......." He would say, "I didn't ask for your opinion, but only what the passage says." There were days I would argue with him, and he would respond, "Well, Jesus has done so much for me I am going to give Him my best and not my least." I cannot tell you how many times I had to pray, eat crow, apologize. I learned there a major difference in studying the Bible and studying about it. Years later it was obvious to me Welsh was using the Bible to form a psychological image of Christ in his students.  It was a very hard and difficult journey, but one I cannot forget.

I really like your story as an exempla - although I have my usual whimiscal smile at the use of the phrase "high view" - but we've been through that discussion before. But to me, the deepest point your story makes is one that is often lost in the discussion of Bible study, Bible software, etc. That is that Welsh was teaching you Jesus Christ not the Bible, except in the sense that Jesus is the Word.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Friedrich | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 24 2009 6:32 AM

MJ. Smith:

Matthew C Jones:
Theology is just man trying to explain God. Can any man ever really do that?  Nope.

Funny, I thought theology is humanity's attempt to explain their experience of God - an elusive but more achievable goal.

(I get what you are saying, and had a chuckle, so what I respond with is not condescending at all, but a reflection of what I read today, that sometimes ALL of us forget . . . )

"No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us."

""God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God and God in him."

and earlier: "Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God."

 

. . . pretty cool, huh?

I like Apples.  Especially Honeycrisp.

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 24 2009 7:57 AM

MJ. Smith:

Matthew C Jones:
Theology is just man trying to explain God. Can any man ever really do that?  Nope.

Funny, I thought theology is humanity's attempt to explain their experience of God - an elusive but more achievable goal.

I'll concede θεολόγος is from the perspective of man, not God. 

Revised definition of Theology: Humans, trying to explain God, based on their own interpretations of perceived "truth."'

Experience is nothing more than an interpretation of events, ascribing meaning to them.
Experience differs from one individual to another, even in the same circumstance.
Nobody can fully experience God in this life, therefore nobody can write an accurate,  comprehensive theology.
Theologians, like Philosophers and Logicians (per my previous post), all contradict each other at some point.
Since Truth is not self-contradictory, there can only be one Truth.
Therefore all theologies and philosophies are guaranteed to be flawed.

That explains Karl Barth listening to a dead dog for a message from God. (After all, if that's where God has to go to meet him.Big Smile)

If experience were the prerequisite for writing authoritatively, there are a lot of childless "experts" that need to quit writing about how to raise children. If authority is based in Truth, anyone who speaks the Truth can benefit others.

The beauty of the Restoration Movement is the leaders never said they had all the dogma. They deferred to the Bible alone as the authority, -Sola Scriptura in other groups.

 

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Friedrich | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 24 2009 9:05 AM

Matthew C Jones:
Therefore all theologies and philosophies are guaranteed to be flawed.

 

interesting and sweeping statement.  one might wonder just how flawed they are: flawed at certain points or flawed that I can not know truth and will be deceived or deceive any time I "do" theology.

It is clear we see "dimly".  but scripture also tells us God revealed his mystery, that he is light, that we can walk in light, that we can know him.  That knowing seems to be both content and relationship.  Flawed?  Or incomplete?  Sometimes, maybe a little of both.  But he is greater than our flaws.  And we are called to be witnesses, to tell what we know.

As a Christian disciple heavily influenced by my RM heritage (within which I still stand), I have felt we are a bit selective in our decrying of others' use of systematizing theologies or of creeds, especially when we think those have departed from what we understand from the Bible. But there is the rub.  Our perspective of the Bible IS a theology of sorts: what verses we gloss over, what ones we give primacy (Acts 2:38 over Romans 10:10), all these are instances of a systematizing theology.  How we hang things together.  I don't think we can completely divorce ourselves from that.

In light of this, I have concluded: I need to be humble and not assume that I have all the mysteries unlocked, and I should listen to others.  I also need to be diligent in studying Scripture.  And I must constantly ask God for his wisdom through the Spirit to know his truth.


I will never nail down all of God's truth, therefore, I should be wary of nailing others for not doing the same.

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David Buckham | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 24 2009 9:13 AM

What if all theologies aren't flawed necessarily, they are just incomplete?  You know, there is somewhat of a God-mystery behind every theology?  Maybe two different theologies can actually complement each other when you figure the God portion out?

Just some questions for the discussion, which has gotten way off topic by the way.

all about Christ,
David Buckham

all about Christ,

David Buckham

http://thinkspurlove.blogspot.com

 

 

Posts 87
David Emme | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 24 2009 11:02 AM

JimDean:
I agree that the word is used too often out of ignorance, simply to criticize and disparage others

As an Independent Fundamental Baptist who is a King James Onlyist, I could not agree more. I wander in the future how this type of thinling will affect me knowing that I also claim Calvinism and thoroughly believe min Lordhip salvation and often when I see my King James friends disparage other people and their faith as flawed and non binding to true salvation based upon a belief in the bible when I see many times, us KJV types-the evidance or reasoning is just as flawed as those who believein "modern versions". I thnk they have a sense of the truth, yet so many unwilling to study textual criticism or have a certain understanding based on what someone else wrote instead of constructing their education to be able to soundly discern truth based on sound reasoning.

So may in my groups refuse to understand the differance between sound logical principles and logical fallacies that at times, our whole understanding is based on logical fallacies that others from the other side so easily dismiss arguments that we chalk it up to a lack of faith.

Yet, on the other side being at times based on fallacies and assumptions that in other places when I bring up certain points I do not think others can answer, I am eother disparaged as an anti-intellectual cultist (which is not any differance between saying because you do not believe the KJV as we do, you are devieved if barely saved) and then regurgitate the same arguments(like which version of the KJV is true-of course when I answer the one I have in my hands-almost no one can ever dispute this point which is easlily so done in highlighting the differances in the various KJV's) and act just like a KJV onlyist whoc can only judge and repeat arguments others wrote instead of thinking for themselves and debate and discus based upon sound reasoning based on actual evidance.

This is not t say those on the other side are so wrong, but that which we are accused of are often repeated by those making the accusation.

This to the point, when I talk to a Baptist Bible College professor from a non KJV school-when I start bringing up certain points, usually they amit that I am right to a point that when you get deep into the conflicting and contradicting understanding of textual criticisms(were many textual critics will disagree in certain passages holding to a certain word or phrase as the word of God and how authoritative can we be when everyone disagrees and takes up sides just as KJV onlyistsand modern version advocates do). This the professor telling me I am correct to a point(because getting deep into this, I am talking of not preachers, but textual critics and translators who are often not known by the average christian-yet these come up with the latest Greek text from which newer transaltons come), but cannot nswer how can this be right if they all disagree?

Yet, when trying to educate KJVadvocates-I am largely ignored because instead of doing actual study and research which takes time and effort, they would rather just keep repeating the same old arguments.

Understgand this from me, if you disagree with KJV Onlyism, I do not think you are the devil or decieved and cannot have great impactful ministries. Though I disagree with James white, I love his apologetic ministry and his books/videos.sermons on Calvinism.

The one thing I have been convicted of is making judgements about other ministries and pastors if they propose something I think is erroneous and not biboical and then make publc statements about them. Not that others cannot be criticized, but so often to judge a Pastor has a higher criteria of judgement in the bible that I wandr how many people actually tried communicating by calling, going to his church, writing a letter or an email to "confront" of a supposed false doctrine? Often, from the IFB KJV side, we make judgements without even reading the material that people say is heretical and do this based on other people saying or writing.

 

Posts 87
David Emme | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 24 2009 11:11 AM

Daniel DeVilder:
Certainly each denomination and non-denominational denomination (wink wink) has canonized their favorites, and seem to rely on their writings rather than researching the depths of scripture.  On the other hand, I find people within churches I have been who are loathe to use "a book written by men" and only want us to teach the Bible.

I agree. In my KJV Baptist movements-this is often the case. works of no others except Jack Hyles and John R. Rice. On the other hand, my point often is if  man(or woman) saved and studying the scriptures for 40-50 years as an occupation-I might not agree with all their doctrine, but certainly the Spirit of God led these and have some type of truth they wroe about. Certainly, yes do not rely upon man, but if man being lead for several decades by the Spirit of God and aspire to know the deep thngs of God-there might be something he could teach us. See, whet I wrote before this at the end of this thread.

God bless

Dave Emme

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 24 2009 12:42 PM

Matthew C Jones:
Experience is nothing more than an interpretation of events,

How thoroughly Buddhist - I'm quite pleased with the inter-faith aspect. (okay, I'm biased by a degree in Buddhist studies.)

Matthew C Jones:
Since Truth is not self-contradictory.

How thoroughly Western - while I agree with you, it is a human assumption that should be challenged in philosophy or theology.

Matthew C Jones:
nobody can write an accurate,  comprehensive theology.

Absolutely true for any definition of God that I would be willing to accept, especially since I lean towards apophatic theology

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Friedrich | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 24 2009 1:22 PM

David Emme:
Certainly, yes do not rely upon man,

 

I hear you, and yet some do go overboard with that cry.  After all, men and women are appointed teachers and leaders.  God works thru them by the power and wisdom of his Spirit.  And they get that message out by speaking it or writing it.  (uh oh, does that mean BOOKS written "by men" might be valuable to read???) :)

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