Works of Alexander Campbell, Barton W. Stone (restoration preachers)
I would like to see a Logos version of the writings of Alexander Campbell and other leaders of the "Restoration Movement."
Alexander was such an eloquent speaker and critical thinker that even though his debate opponents disagreed with his views, they still conceded he won the debates. They even warned each other not to debate him.
This sharp intellect was evidenced in two publications Alexander edited spanning almost 40 years.
The Christian Baptist (published from 1823~30) and
The Millennial Harbinger (published from 1830~66)
Readers from all over would write in questions and arguments tapping or challenging his keen mind. The ongoing dialogue is a good read. Sometimes it makes one go back to the Scriptures for a closer look.
Since Campbell based all of his arguments on the Bible it would be very useful to have this in Libronix format for comparative studies.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
Comments
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Matthew C Jones said:
Since Campbell based all of his arguments on the Bible it would be very useful to have this in Libronix format for comparative studies.
I agree. Not that I afree with Stone orCampbell, but when they came out with SDA resources, I went ahead and bought it.
A couple of reasons, first, many cults practically ripped off Barton-Stone on restorationism.
In fact, I would like to see Logos publish more works from actual cults such as Mormons and JW's. The reason why because there are some people like me whom have an interest in studying aberrant groups and cults, meaning having access to their materials and source documents is important for research reasons.
On the other hand, there is a so called"Cult" that I learn from quite a bit in my own spirituality. The Local Church of Witness Lee and Watchman Nee.
Of course, I do not think they are a cult and for the most part, taking a portion of one work on the Trinity that emphasizes the onenss of the Trinity and then not approach any other work from Nee or Lee or Living Streams(the publishing arm) where they affirm the orthodox understandng og the Trinity.
Often times, people fail to realize, the standard, orthodox definition of the Trinity includes an element of the Trinity being one, yet three seperate entities.
It is only controversial because they happen to sue orginazations which publish them as cults and yet do not want to enter into a discourse about their beliefs openly.
I went to a Local Church while in the Army in Takoma, researched what everyone said about them about being a cult and did not even approach much of what was stated because I even noticed how people were intentionally warping their views. On the Trinity and other things, I was allowed to freely ask any elder in public, even if I happened to disagree. I just never saw them as a cult. I took the time to actually find out and recievedmany blessings from that assembly.
Yes, they are also a bit restorational and disagree with that, but they never had a problem with my disagreement.
Yet, we can buy SDA and now Roman Catholic resources(which I really do not have a problem with), but when something else is considered contreversial-we are not going to see them on Logos.
Roman Catholicism not controversial? I think many martyrs will disgree. Ellen G White's writings not controversial? Only because some in Christianity took them off their cult list.
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Matthew C Jones said:
Since Campbell based all of his arguments on the Bible it would be very useful to have this in Libronix format for comparative studies.
I agree not because I would purchase them but because I think they would help pull in another potential group of Logos users ... and I support each step towards a broader constituency. My bias is, of course, the Orthodox-Catholic-Lutheran-Anglican end of the resources but I'm willing to support the small steps along the way.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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David Emme said:
A couple of reasons, first, many cults practically ripped off Barton-Stone on restorationism
I was suprised myself to learn how some early writings of the Jehovah's Witnesses did get copied from the Restoration Movement. Also it is my understanding a bit of Mormonism was copied from the Masonic Lodge. I am also familiar with Watchman Nee and respected his life work and writings very much, I don't know as much about Witness Lee but I am aware of a later cult-ish type following that emerged.
I think in most sects, whether we would call them cults or just denominnations, The original founders would be shocked to see the modern day result.
I find it useful to be aware of the teachings of other groups. I have Decker's Complete Handbook on Mormonism on pre-pub for just that reason. I also have the SDA commentaries . I think the writings of Alexander Campbell are different in that you can witness his growth as he corrects his stand based on further study. In other words, I think he was an honest man truly searching for what the Bible taught rather than what men said.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Matthew C Jones said:
I was suprised myself to learn how some early writings of the Jehovah's Witnesses did get copied from the Restoration Movement
Actually, I have done quite a bit of research on this and wrote an article showing this. Now, if you are a Church of Christ type person, might get a bit offended by it and is not my intention.
I know this, the person who started the Christedelphians broke from the Disciples of Christ and the JW's broke from the Chrisedelphians though they believe practically the same doctrine.
As far as Mormons, Thomas Ridgely broke from the Campbell-Stone movement and if I recollect correctly, was one of th three witnesses of the Golden plates of the book of Mormon.
There is nothing original aout Mormonism. Yes, they copied from the Masonic Lodge. They copied all their beliefs on Christ, God and planets from Sweedenborgism. I have one bookmrkd site which shows which book that you can still buy on Amazon by a Canadian Sweedenborgist author where practically they copied him word for word. Sweedenborgism is a Gnostic religion. Also have a bookmark which shows another witness of the golden plates of Morminism sat under a Pastor who taught that the American Indians was "the lost tribe of Israel". I think there was even a book with the same teaching by that Pastor. I think that pastor was ether Plymouth Bretheren or perhaps a Presbytarian.
Actually, in my observations, all these cults started about the same time(in the 1800's) and in the same general regional area-Pennsylvania and New York.
All very interesting. Mybe I should write a book showing how the Mormons do not have one original beief.
Again, my intention is not to offend if you are a Church of Christ/Disciple of Christ believer. My intention is not to offend or get in a big debate about baptsm. I should also note, I am a Baptist and if yu know the Baptist belief on Baptism, you could see why I would not agree with the Church of Christ understanding of baptism. If you want to see the article(Did not put any resources, though I posess them, I have literally hundreds of bookmarks and need to start organizing them.) then let me know and I will send it to you. my email is daveme7@yahoo.com. Understand, if you are a Disciple/Curch of Christ believer or from a denomination that broke off from the DOC/COC, you will be offended. If you can read past some things on that, there is much that I think is insightful. Of course I am biased, I wrote it:)
I also have the same work on pre pub among the many things I have on prepub.
Again, I cannot emphasize enough, My intention is not to be offensive or start a big ole debate over baptism. I just do not know you very well and want to keep in the spirit of discussion with Logos related business.
As far as later followers of the Local Church. Just like when someone switches from Arminianism to Calvinism or in my case, went from a Pentecostal to a Baptist , many times people in their immaturity will take a radicalized position in seeing the light about something you previusly did not believe.
In the Local Church, since it has been a smaller body of believers-I think that might have an affect which would cause many to see them as a "Cult" based on bad behaivor as opposed to behaivor of a more mature Christian that went through that part of immaturity and has patiance with those going through that and those who do not agree 100% with their own doctrine. In fact, I am writing about my experiances in the Local Church and my understanding of their doctrine from a Baptist perspective. I do not know where I would publish it, but can say learning from them and some of the writings from Nee or Lee has benefited me a lot-and I mean very much of a blessing to me. I do not know if can express how much of a blessing my time with them was, but it has done much for me in God breaking me of my pride and lead me to understand what true spirituality and sanctification is.
God bless
Dave Emme
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Matthew:
I know that it is not exactly what you are asking for, but I am in the process of producing PBB's of documents from the Stone-Campbell movement. Currently, I have
- "The Christian System" and "The Sermon on the Law" by Alexander Campbell;
- "Declaration and Address" by Thomas Campbell;
- "Treatise on the Eldership" by J.W. McGarvey (his "Fourfold Gospel" and "Commentary on Acts" are already available from Logos);
- "Our Position" by Isaac Errett;
- "Address to the Churches in KY, OH & KY"; "Observations on Church Government to Which Has been Added the Last Will & Testament of the Springfield Presbytery" by Barton W. Stone;
- "Breakup of a Movement: The Sand Creek Documents"(the original "Sand Creek Declaration" and subsequent documents which led to the non-instrumental churches of Christ separating from the rest of the movement) by Daniel Sommers;
- and I have selected works from the 1909 Centennial Convention Report. This one is a massive undertaking and I probably will only put into PBB format those articles that seem to have contemporary relevance. (Some are financial reports and lists of committee persons).
You can find these for free download on my website: www.calhabig.com under the PBB page. (You have to have the PBB key to read them, but it is available in almost all of the Liibronix collections).
I am also still working on:"The Atonement: The Substance of Two Letters Written to a Friend," by Barton W. Stone and "The Works of Barton W. Stone"; J.W. McGarvey's "Commentary on Thessalonians, Corinthians, Galatians and Romans"; "Treatise on the Elder's Office" by William Ballentine.
So many resources,so little time. If you have thoughts or suggestions, leave them and I'll check back. Or drop me a note at cal.habig@gmail.comAll the best.
(Interesting discussion. Sydney Rigdon's taking Restoration principles to Joseph Smith is well known and well documented, but the tie with JW's was news to me.)
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David:
It is Sydney Rigdon, not Thomas Ridgely.
All the best,
Cal Habig
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The word "cult" has lost all meaning in our day and age. Anyone who disagrees with us is considered in a cult now. People who are King James Only are cult members, people who hold to the modern text and textual criticism are cult members. The Baptists who are Calvinists are in a cult. ect, ect, ect. The word is only used to inflame. It is intended to insult others so as soon as you use the word cult you are offending people because that is what the word is meant to do in our day.
Some quotes:
"...if you believe in it, it is a religion or perhaps 'the' religion;
and if you do not care one way or another about it, it is a sect;
but if you fear and hate it, it is a cult." Leo Pfeffer. A humorous quotation, but one that is uncomfortably close to reality."Cults are claimed to be deceitful. They are claimed to be harmful to their members. They are claimed to be undermining American values. Cults are claimed to be just about every bad thing in the book these days, and with the pervasive images of Manson and Jim Jones hanging over us, any group that is called a cult is immediately associated with those two people." J. Gordon Melton.
"My working definition of a cult is a group that you don't like, and I say that somewhat facetiously, but at the same time, in fact, that is my working definition of a cult. It is a group that somebody doesn't like. It is a derogatory term, and I have never seen it redeemed from the derogatory connotations that it picked up in the sociological literature in the 1930s." J. Gordon Melton.
"A cult is a church down the street from your church." Anon
http://www.religioustolerance.org/cults.htm
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James Chaisson said:
The word "cult" has lost all meaning in our day and age
I agree that the word is used too often out of ignorance, simply to criticize and disparage others. Sadly, so.
However, a "conceptual" (ie neither complete nor precise) definition that I've found to be useful focuses on the Lord Jesus Christ.
Denial of clear biblical attributes of Jesus means that a person cannot be saved, since it is by Him and through Him and unto Him that salvation is made possible and available to us.
So, a "cult", in my mind, is any "group" or "belief system" that does not accept and promote that Jesus is:
Fully God, fully man yet without sin, alpha and omega, one with the Father and Holy Spirit, born of a virgin, of the house and lineage of David, the promised and anointed fullfillment of God's plan of salvation, physically died, separated from God when He became sin for us, physically resurrected and restored in complete communion with God having paid for and dispensed with our sin, our intercessor and advocate, our Lord and King, the Hope of Israel, etc ...
I add the "etc" since the list truly is incredibly long, as to who the Word says He is, and what He has done, is doing, and will do.
I think it's fair to say that most groups that are "commonly labelled" as "cults" are ones that deny or supplant or replace or warp significant aspects of the truth about Jesus the Christ and King.
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Redeeming the time (Eph.5:16+Col.4:5) ... Win 10, iOS & iPadOS 16
Jim Dean0 -
So your definition rests on the identity of Jesus and nothing else? So for you Baptists, Methodists, Catholics, Greek Orthodox, Presbyterians, churches of Christ, Calvinists, King James Only folks, ect. Are not considered cult groups?
The problem is that everyone has a different definition for the word “cult” so you might mean it in one way but when you say or write it others have a different concept in mind and usually a very negative one.
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CalvinHabig said:
You can find these for free download on my website: www.calhabig.com under the PBB page. (You have to have the PBB key to read them, but it is available in almost all of the Liibronix collections).
Thank you Calvin,
I will surely be downloading from your site and encourage you to continue your work on these. These points raised in this forum are exactly why I DO promote wider scope of Logos resources. If I had the money I would buy the feminist writings, the Pentecostal, the Luthern, the Methodist, the Catholic, even Karl Barth![;)]
I do however have a tender spot in my heart for the "Restoration Movement" leaders - with all their flaws & foibles.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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David Emme said:
Again, I cannot emphasize enough, My intention is not to be offensive or start a big ole debate over baptism. I just do not know you very well and want to keep in the spirit of discussion with Logos related business.
I'm not offended. (FYI: I attend an Independent Fundamentalist Baptist church. They are more Fundamentalist than I. And I am more Independent than they.[:)])
To give you a hint; I love Francis Schaeffer, J.I.Packer, Bonhoeffer, Greg Harris among others.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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James Chaisson said:
So your definition rests on the identity of Jesus and nothing else?
I find this definition to be useful, because it focuses on two central issues:
1. I believe that a person who knowledgably denies that collection of truth is not saved, therefore I need to witness to them, and consider that their minds are not being illumined by the Holy Spirit regarding non-salvation-related portions of Scripture.
2. I believe that someone who by faith truly accepts and agrees with that portion of truth is someone whom I can have biblical, Spirit-based fellowship with, EVEN THOUGH we might disagree on some other issues.
For example, even though I most definitely do not agree with the KJV-only thinking, I most definitely DO have some wonderful brothers in the Lord who I fellowship with occasionally who do (mistakenly :~) take that position. I have some precious brothers in Christ who are of the persuasion that instrumental music is not appropriate for their church services, whom I expect to see in glory, even though I quite enjoy various instruments being used as a part of worshipping God. I have some Blood-bought brothers who believe that they should pray in "tongues of angels", which I do not concur with at any level, but who are a blessing to me to walk with in fellowship.
Where I have a problem, is when any such group or system's beliefs are purported to be a requirement for salvation. THAT'S where I draw the line, and in my experience that all revolves around either WHO Jesus is, or WHAT He did and is doing for us, or both. It often encompasses other areas of confusion/error as well ... but THAT issue - who He is and what is/has/will be doing - is at the heart of the two guidelines I mentioned earlier.
I think we need to remember that Jesus said that "whoever is not against US is for US", but also He said that "whoever is not for ME is against ME". Jesus is the focus. Jesus is .... words fail, for lack of space ... He should be the center of our lives, focus, hope and service. Too often, we let other things "steal the throne" from Him.
So, I use the term "cult" to help discriminate in those important aspects, thus it becomes a useful guide for me regarding fellowship with others, and witnessing to others.
These are things I've found useful in my own walk. Others can feel free to define the word "cult" however they please ... I'm not positive, but I don't think it's a Biblical term anyhoo.
To Him be all glory!
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Redeeming the time (Eph.5:16+Col.4:5) ... Win 10, iOS & iPadOS 16
Jim Dean0 -
JimDean said:James Chaisson said:
So your definition rests on the identity of Jesus and nothing else?
... (the confusion of a cult) revolves around WHO Jesus is, or WHAT He did and is doing for us, or both.
Small correction to prior post ... your phrase "the identity of Jesus and nothing else" is not what I was trying to describe ... it's part of it, though. The other, just as important part, is WHAT HE DID, WHAT HE IS DOING, and WHAT HE WILL DO. Those aspects are also essential parts of "my definition". FWIW.
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Redeeming the time (Eph.5:16+Col.4:5) ... Win 10, iOS & iPadOS 16
Jim Dean0 -
JimDean said:
I think it's fair to say that most groups that are "commonly labelled" as "cults" are ones that deny or supplant or replace or warp significant aspects of the truth about Jesus the Christ and King.
Brother JimDean,
Your definition of a "cult" is the best functional definition I've see to date for my semantics. Your whole post above is right on target, clearly spoken, succinctly stated. That is why I said whether we call them cults or just denominations. Not that MY label matters but what they define themselves by. "Who do YOU say that I am?"
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Matthew C Jones said:JimDean said:
I think it's fair to say that most groups that are "commonly labelled" as "cults" are ones that deny or supplant or replace or warp significant aspects of the truth about Jesus the Christ and King.
Your definition of a "cult" is the best functional definition I've see to date for my semantics. Your whole post above is right on target, clearly spoken, succinctly stated. That is why I said whether we call them cults or just denominations. Not that MY label matters but what they define themselves by. "Who do YOU say that I am?"
I'm glad that it was helpful to you, and I agree that we get TOO hung up in labelling people and groups nowadays, and too often we "define ourselves" by some of those labels ... whether they be the church we attend or the particular collection of "isms" we are comfortable with.
It's not about man's views or words, but God's. His, only.
It's about God-awareness: 1) aware of Him, who He is, and our relationship with Him; 2) aware of how He views everything that we encounter and live with, unfiltered by the veils of Satan's kosmos-system.
And that's all thru and unto JESUS.
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Redeeming the time (Eph.5:16+Col.4:5) ... Win 10, iOS & iPadOS 16
Jim Dean0 -
Matthew C Jones said:
I'm not offended. (FYI: I attend an Independent Fundamentalist Baptist church. They are more Fundamentalist than I. And I am more Independent than they.
)To give you a hint; I love Francis Schaeffer, J.I.Packer, Bonhoeffer, Greg Harris among others.
Thanks. Interestingly, I consider my self an Independent Fundamental Baptist, though not active in a church do to some of my disabilities recieved from getting wounded in Iraq. One disability, the Lord has been merciful and has taken away. Now, just need to overcome sleep problems. If everyone could pray for this to be healed in my life as well as a PTSD sympton of being fearful when in crowds. On this, I do not believe I fear any man in this world, yet, when in crowds, I will post haste leave.
As an IFB, I love Paul Washer,John Macarthur, appreciate many of the authors you mentioned as well as AW Pink, John Bunyan, and John Owen.
I happen to also consider myself a Calvinist and desire to be a missionary in the Philippines.
On the other hand, I am a King James Onyist, but feel it is sin to judge other Christian's salvation or quality of their faith. Most times, we are in sin in this. Does not prevent me from critiqing(?) other versions, but James White is not the devil nor is he a liar or deciever. I rather enjoy watching his videos on youtube and enjoy reading his books on Calvinism.
I am also one whom believes and agrees on Lordship Salvation.
Yet, knowing much about this on what I believe, most in IFB circles will say I am a heretick. I even see where some non Baptistic evangelicals will state that if you believe in Calvinism, you are a cultist. I have seen this happen.
Also, have experianced some anti KJV people accuse me of being in a cult. So in the end,I figure some one will be alling me a cultist, though I do not do the same ting to Arminians, Modern Version believers and who else ever disagrees with me and counts one of my beliefs a heresy.
This is where I really see some like the Local Church might just have a point with their brand of restorationism.
At some point in time, I have come to the understanding, I do not care what others think of me whether my stuff is considered heretical by one group or another.
I answer to my conscience in my studies of the word of God and only to the Lord. I cannot worry about what others think of my beliefs, though when it comes to raising money for missions-this will cost me big time.
My definition o fa cult is this-Another Bible, another Christ, and another way of salvation.
Usually I will try to take all three, but sometimes, if a group takes one-it can influance the other beiefs or one erroneous belief magnified above the others.
Yet, I usually try to keep it in those three definitions before I label someone as a cultist or in a cult.
Do me a favor and write me an email. First, because it is rare that I find someone in an IFB church which has no problem reading similar authors. On the other hand, I would really like to send you my article since we are both interested in restoration groups.
God bless
Dave Emme
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As a minister in the Christian Church (Restoration Movement) and graduate of a Restoration Bible college (now a University...Cincinnati Christian University), in other words one who has heard a lot about Campbell and Stone and one who grew up in KY (a hot bed of the Restoration Movement) I will say I am not offended at the cult comments.
In all fairness though, every (which is not a word anyone used) "Christian-themed" cult out there copied an aspect from Jesus and His disciples. Campbell (both of them) and Stone (along with many others) were not the originators of their ideas of restorationism.
I would love to see a Restoration Movement collection...history, doctrine, old school published debates, journals, papers...even the new stuff out there.
all about Christ,
David Buckham0 -
I'm working on doing what I can, David! I put another group up today. Check out the Restoration Movement PBBs at www.calhabig.com/pbb.html. Almost have Campbells Baptism: Its Antecedents and Consequents done. Hope to have it up in the next week. Would love to know of others doing this so we do duplicate efforts. (A Manhattan Christian College and Emmanuel School of Religion grad here).
BTW: with the (probably appropriate) testiness here recently about linking to other sites, it seems fair to link to my site since they are PBBs that Logos does not sell and they are free. If such is not the case, please let me know.
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That should have been "so we DON'T duplicate efforts"!
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I would like to have some Stone-Campbell/Restoration Movement works. I know nothing about the PBB. Can anyone steer me toward a tutorial? If I purchased the program (standard or personal?) would I then be able to download other books into it. I’m sure I’m not asking all of this exactly right. Maybe somebody can help me. I didn’t find anything in the online videos.
Brad
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Brad-it totally depends what you want to do. If all you want to do is download and read them, then you likely already have that capability. All packaged sets (Scholars, Gold, Silver, etc). come with what is called a PBB key. You don't have to do anything. You can go to the various sites where PBB (Personal Book Builder) resources are located, download them and read them. The rule that Logos places on those of who who create them is that can't be sold. They HAVE to be free...and that's great in my book!
Now, if you want to CREATE them, that's a different ballgame. There is a two-part program you need to buy (why it is two-part I never could figure out). Libronix also has an excellent video tutorial that they sell. The whole package of PBB creation program, video tutoral and annual licence will propbably set you back around $300. [Check the site-http://www.logos.com/products/details/2463] You can also get a piece of freeware called something like Builder Builder--John McComb, one of the guys of the forum created it--and it comes with a written tutorial. But (pardon me, must be my fault) I have created quite a few PBB's now and I still can figure out the written tutorial. It is available at StillTruth.com. Recently several folks have had some trouble getting it to work, according to the newfeeds. I just use Dreamweaver. (I've just confused you, I know: you have to create the document in .html format (that's what Dreamweaver or the PBBand then the PBB program converts it into a Libronix useable resource.)
That is how it works from my experience. So you may already have all you need if you have one of the boxed sets. Download one either from my site or from StillTruth.com and just see if you can open it. IT IS CRITICAL, howwever, that you put the PBBs into a directory that Libronix searches to find resources. What most do is make a PBB subdirectory under your resources directory and group them all together there. There is also ANOTHER program, that will organize them for you (PBB Updater). But that's WAY more than you asked.
If you have further questions, just ask.
Blessings,
Cal H
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Thanks so much, Calvin. I do have Scholar's Gold so I'll definitely try it out. It will probably be later in the week. But I'll let you know how it turns out.
Thanks again.
Brad
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Calvin Habig said:
Now, if you want to CREATE them, that's a different ballgame. There is a two-part program you need to buy (why it is two-part I never could figure out). Libronix also has an excellent video tutorial that they sell. The whole package of PBB creation program, video tutoral and annual licence will propbably set you back around $300. [Check the site-http://www.logos.com/products/details/2463] You can also get a piece of freeware called something like Builder Builder--John McComb, one of the guys of the forum created it--and it comes with a written tutorial. But (pardon me, must be my fault) I have created quite a few PBB's now and I still can figure out the written tutorial.
Sorry about that. That walk-through was created a very long time ago when I first posted the program. It was just kind of thrown together quickly to help guide some ot the people who were initially trying it out. Half the features that are in there now didn't even exist at that time. My to do list includes the line, "create some help files or a proper tutorial or something you twonk". Eventually. I promise.
Calvin Habig said:It is available at StillTruth.com. Recently several folks have had
some trouble getting it to work, according to the newfeeds.It works. The complaints are about program crashes. I was never able to figure that out. I always suspected it had something to do with the Windows 2000 compile running on an XP os but who knows? The dumps that were being sent to me always lead me into la la land. They didn't make any sense. I suspect that I got the source of the final released compile mixed up with one of the other project folders (I had something like 25 Builder Builder project folders saved at one point because I'm too chicken to discard any old code no matter how much redundancy I have lying around).
Anyway, I've been working on it again. It all started when I began collecting pbb tips and hints posts from the news groups to archive on my site. An old post by one of the Logos employees promising a Unicode aware version of the compiler compelled me to check and, sure enough, it turns out that PBB can now handle Unicode source. So I upgraded the program to save in either unicode or ascii with HTML ampersand encoding (users option) and also to display either/or in the source editor window. While I was in the middle of that my computer went pop so I had to build a new one. Now my OS is XP Pro, so if that was the source of whatever troubles some people were having it should go away now. I won't post it for a while because it's still got a couple of little bugs to iron out and I've got about six things going on a once here. At least this one will have a crash report exe that sends the reports to the right email address. The one the old version sends crash reports to hasn't existed for quite a while now. Come to think of it, that StillTruth download you mentioned is just a link to a web page that doesn't exist any more. My web site is now at www.jcmc.ca.
While I was upgrading everything I also installed the trial version of Visual Studio 2008 to give that a try (I have also had a suspicion that the crashes might be related to this poor version of VS that I have. This is all guesswork you know. I've never experienced any crashes and I use the program all the time). I can't compile Builder Builder with that version though because I'm missing a bit of source I used to create an important DLL. I can still compile it with VC7 because I still have the dll kicking around but you need to create a new dll with VC9 to get Builder Builder to link in VC9. I can recreate that source but it's a job. It was hard to do the first time and it was a long time ago so I'll have to start from scratch. Well, not entirely from scratch. I've still got the header file of course. That's all on my to do list. I'll try to get on with it before my trial period runs out. If all works out well then I think I've got a lead on a deal for VS 2008 standard that's at least semi affordable.Then maybe I can post a version that won't crash on anybody's computer.
Yours in Christ
John
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Thanks John! Always best to get it from the source himself!!
Cal H.
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Wow. It's amazing to find out what's been right under one's nose all along. I just downloaded "The Treatise on the Eldership" to try it out. I'm impressed.
Thanks! [C]
Brad
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Am I imagining this or do I correctly remember reading something about the licenses of PBB resources expiring?
Brad
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Brad Fry said:
Am I imagining this or do I correctly remember reading something about the licenses of PBB resources expiring?
No, the resources don't expire. The ability to create books with the PBB compiler expires each year. To continue to have the ability to create PBB resources you need to renew your license every year for a small fee.
This is a policy I hate but I continue to renew my license anyway even though I pretty well compiled all the books I was interested in building the first year I owned the tool. That's because the fee is very small and I am interested in PBB in general. I continue to experiment in spite of the tact that I don't really have any projects I want to build. Besides, I have my own PBB tools that I support and update from time to time.
Yours in Christ
John
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Thanks, John.
Brad
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In 1976, Dr. Knofel Staton, who at the time was teaching at Ozark Bible College (now Ozark Christian College) in Joplin, MO, published a paraphrase of Thomas Campbell's Declaration and Address. The document is available online (HTML) at http://www.mun.ca/rels/restmov/texts/tcampbell/etc/DA-KS.HTM.
I have been wanting to try my hand at the Personal Book Builder, so as my first project, I compiled this document. I did it for my own personal use. This afternoon, I spoke with Dr. Staton, to get his permission to distribute it through this forum.
Thanks to Cal Habig for the many documents produced and made available here. Here is my small contribution.7217.Knofel Staton's Paraphrase (1976) of Thomas Campbell's Declaration and Address.zip
MacBook Air M1 16GB RAM | Mac Mini M1 8GB RAM | iMac 24" M1 16GB RAM | iPad Pro (plus some Windows laptops relegated to disuse)
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David Fish said:
In 1976, Dr. Knofel Staton, who at the time was teaching at Ozark Bible College (now Ozark Christian College) in Joplin, MO, published a paraphrase of Thomas Campbell's Declaration and Address. The document is available online (HTML) at http://www.mun.ca/rels/restmov/texts/tcampbell/etc/DA-KS.HTM.
I have been wanting to try my hand at the Personal Book Builder, so as my first project, I compiled this document. I did it for my own personal use. This afternoon, I spoke with Dr. Staton, to get his permission to distribute it through this forum.
My father introduced me to Dr. Staton when I was a little kid. (Probably at a NACC or a missionary convention.) A great man is he. I always held him in high esteem alongside Don Dewelt. Thanks for producing this.
David Fish said:Thanks to Cal Habig for the many documents produced and made available here. Here is my small contribution.7217.Knofel Staton's Paraphrase (1976) of Thomas Campbell's Declaration and Address.zip
Everybody makes Personal Book Building look easy. I am sure it is not but I appreciate the many books others are making and will soon attempt a some obscure work to see if I can do this. Is there a "clearing house" to know what projects others might be working on so there is no duplication?
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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I don't think so, but if you start a project, post a note, and if someone else is already working on it, they'll probably let you know. That's happened in the past.
Longtime Logos user (more than $30,000 in purchases) - now a second class user because I won't pay them more every month or year.
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David Fish,
As a Mac user of Logos, I cannot yet access PBB files (my only major complaint about Logos Mac, but I am patient). The link does not work. Can you check it? Thanks.
Anyone doing anything for the anniversary of Declaration and Address this year?
all about Christ,
David Buckham0 -
There isn't a clearing house, but the PBB page on my website site (www.calhabig.com/pbb.html) is the only place I know of really to download Stone-Campbell Movement PBBs. I also list some things there that I am working on. I need to update it today or tomorrow anyway. If David will give me permission to link to his file, it can be accessed from there. If you e-mail me with Stone-Campbell Movement (in recognition that there are in reality NUMEROUS Protestant group who call themselves "Restoration Movements," I would be happy to list them there for all to know that they are coming...and to avoid duplication.
Cal Habig
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David:
The correct link at the Memorial University site is: http://www.mun.ca/rels/restmov/texts/tcampbell/etc/DA-KS.HTM
The link to the PBB is correct.
Haven't heard of anyone doing anything in commemoration. Quite a pity, after the huge shin-dig that they had in 1909. Surely there is SOMETHING, but it is a well-guarded secret if there is.
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Cal,
Thanks for correcting the link to Rollmann's site. At the bottom the the PBB, I put a link to the site. I know that my link in the PBB is correct, because I went to that page from within the PBB.
Feel free to put the file on your site. Bro. Staton (as all of us called him when he taught us at Ozark) gave wide permission to distribute his work.
DGF
MacBook Air M1 16GB RAM | Mac Mini M1 8GB RAM | iMac 24" M1 16GB RAM | iPad Pro (plus some Windows laptops relegated to disuse)
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Cal,
Regarding some big celebration, this IS something in the works. It will be some sort of a simul-event, held in different regions.. Check out page two of the OCC Compass, which shows what will take place in the 4-State (Missouri, Kansas, Oklahoma, Arkansas) area, available here: http://www.occ.edu/Alumni/News/Compass/Compass_2009_3_Summer.pdf.
Though we must be careful to post links to 3rd party sites, there is a book available, commemorating the bicentennial. ISBN-10: 0891125655: Carson, Foster, & Holloway (2008). One Church: A Bicentennial Celebration of Thomas Campbell's Declaration and Address. Abilene, TX: Abilene Christian University Press. You can google or bing it to find places it is available.
The Disciples of Christ Historical Society is sponsoring http://www.greatcommunion.org/ to organize local (or regional) celebrations. Perhaps those of you in the NW could use some of their resources.
Blessings,
DGF
MacBook Air M1 16GB RAM | Mac Mini M1 8GB RAM | iMac 24" M1 16GB RAM | iPad Pro (plus some Windows laptops relegated to disuse)
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David Fish said:
Cal,
Thanks for correcting the link to Rollmann's site. At the bottom the the PBB, I put a link to the site. I know that my link in the PBB is correct, because I went to that page from within the PBB.
Feel free to put the file on your site. Bro. Staton (as all of us called him when he taught us at Ozark) gave wide permission to distribute his work.
DGF
David,
I would like to get Gareth Reese to make his writings available in Logos format. How do you think he should be approached? I think many would benefit from these works, but he is very resistant to "losing" financially. I've talked with others who have attended his classes that would also like to see his commentaries available.
Also, maybe you could make some contacts with the folks at College Press to put some of their "older" works into Logos format. I'm thinking of their "What The Bible Says About..." series from the '80's, such as Cottrell's "God the Creator," "God the Ruler," and "God the Redeemer," etc.
Keep preaching and teaching.
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David Fish said:
I would like to get Gareth Reese to make his writings available in Logos format.
Also, maybe you could make some contacts with the folks at College Press to put some of their "older" works into Logos format.
AMEN...I appreciate his commentaries (Acts, Romans, Hebrews) much.
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Bill,
I have not spoken to Gareth in many years, other than to say hello. His latter books were self-published. I'm not sure College Press could do much along that line. I did speak to someone at College Press this summer, and they are planning on using a Logos competitor. I'm thankful for the College Press books that ARE available in Logos format. Don't think I've got much clout.
MacBook Air M1 16GB RAM | Mac Mini M1 8GB RAM | iMac 24" M1 16GB RAM | iPad Pro (plus some Windows laptops relegated to disuse)
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It's great to have scholarly thinkers and their "interpretation" insights, but I would be very careful to give them a tad more credence that the actual Word of God. God speaks for Himself, not mankind. I think that is an accurate depiction of what the restoration movement in the USA tried to convey as it moved away from creeds and human institutions to God's written Word.0
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Jules:
I could not agree with you more. That is what the founders of the Stone-Campbell movement cried for & tried to get the church to do. The exact same thing could be said of the writings of John Piper, John MacArthur, A.W. Tozer, John Calvin, Martin Luther, and many of the other eminent Christian thinkers whose writings are made available in this format. We must always keep in mind that this is Logos BIBLE software and thank God for all the tools it brings for the purpose of helping us study the Word of God firsthand.
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Matthew C Jones said:
I can do this. Is there a "clearing house" to know what projects others might be working on so there is no duplication?
I would like to see Logos maintain such a clearing house and to maintain a single site from which the most current versions were available. It would appear that they have established a pattern for such a site with the Sermons. However, I don't know what copyright concerns there might be to such a site.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Jules lamond said:
It's great to have scholarly thinkers and their "interpretation" insights, but I would be very careful to give them a tad more credence that the actual Word of God. God speaks for Himself, not mankind. I think that is an accurate depiction of what the restoration movement in the USA tried to convey as it moved away from creeds and human institutions to God's written Word.
sigh, have been off the forum for a while. missed it. But got work done!
Jules, not sure what the context was for what you have said. On the one hand, I might agree with you that people elevate certain teachers to near infallible status, on all fronts. Certainly each denomination and non-denominational denomination (wink wink) has canonized their favorites, and seem to rely on their writings rather than researching the depths of scripture. On the other hand, I find people within churches I have been who are loathe to use "a book written by men" and only want us to teach the Bible. But while there are concerns to relying on other's works, I found that hardline approach a bit odd: after all, people are gifted by God with teaching and proclaiming. And by its very nature that teaching and proclaiming involves interpretation, illustration, application. Whether spoken or written down, they have done exegetical study (or not!) and applied hermeneutical principles. If they are to teach, somebody has to be taught. And I can be taught in person or on the page. And I always try to check out their hold on truth the best I can.
ON CULTS: maybe I missed a nuance, but I don't get offended at all that some Mormons and Christadelphians etc have been influenced by renegade Restorationists. They have. It doesn't imply that the Christian Church is a cult, or that their beliefs naturally lead to cultish behavior (I know that for a fact: our beliefs lead us to argue incessantly about whether to build a gate at the front of the lot, or whether we should install A/C or not. No time after that for strange theological trends and behaviors.
I like Apples. Especially Honeycrisp.
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Daniel,
I was just saying that it is God who: (a) teaches [Hebrews 10:15-16] (b) has given us all things to live this life [2 Peter 1:2-4]. An over reliance on human wisdom detracts and distracts from the truth of what He [God] wants to convey to us.
Frankly, I do appreciate what men have contributed to educating the populace utilizing God's word, however I do not elevate or substitute their thought processes above God's own. That's why we have so much division in Christendom.
Logos is a great tool. It has forced me to place more emphasis on the written word of God and discount, for the most part, the theology of mankind. The Bible is absolutely true and correct. I can't say that for the wisdom of man.
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Thank you for clarifying your perspective a bit more. And I think it is vital that people are equipped and encouraged to dive into God's Word and meditate on it and study it and live it. I am finding less and less people that feel confident making their way around in it.
If I may, would you mind weighing in on what role "teachers" gifted so by the Spirit have to the wider body of Christ? Is it possible they would have insight that a non-teacher (so gifted and so leading/serving God's church)? Would it possibly be arrogant or shortsighted for a person to not seek the wisdom of a gifted teacher, and instead think that God will give that individual truth with no need for learning at the feet of others? I am not trying to be too leading, but it is something I have wrestled a bit with in the past. I myself hold in uneasy tension a belief that I SHOULD expect to be taught by others (as one member of the body works for the benefit of another, all under the guidance of the HS) and that at the same time, I would be a bit irresponsible (to say the least) if I just threw my hat in with a teacher, never questioning their teaching and never growing in my own personal study and contemplation, or that God might use me to see something in Scripture overlooked by that person.
I like Apples. Especially Honeycrisp.
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Jules lamond said:
Logos is a great tool. It has forced me to place more emphasis on the written word of God and discount, for the most part, the theology of mankind. The Bible is absolutely true and correct. I can't say that for the wisdom of man.
Agree!
Theology is just man trying to explain God. Can any man ever really do that? Nope.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Cal, I am a member of the Restoration Movement, and would like to express my gratitude for your work in making these resources available. There is considerable misunderstanding concerning the RM, and hopefully these works will shed light on the subject. Hopefully, the following will help.
When I became a Christian in 1971 one of my first prayers was to ask for more knowledge of the Bible. That very week I was lead to a member of the RM, who had opened a small mission and seminary on the edge of the ghetto. He would laugh and say, "My school is slightly smaller than Jesus' little seminary." Dr. Welsh had earned doctorates in literature, law, psychology, and two in theology.
The point I want to make is the Restoration Movement's high view of Scripture. He said in a seminary the students study about the Bible, and not the Bible. Under Welsh, Bible 101 consisted of a personal trip with him from Genesis 1:1 to the end of Revelation. It seems in every chapter he would ask, "What does that verse say?" I would reply, "I think it says ....," and he would respond, "I didn't ask what you think, but what the passage says." I would then say, "In my opinion it says ......." He would say, "I didn't ask for your opinion, but only what the passage says." There were days I would argue with him, and he would respond, "Well, Jesus has done so much for me I am going to give Him my best and not my least." I cannot tell you how many times I had to pray, eat crow, apologize. I learned there a major difference in studying the Bible and studying about it. Years later it was obvious to me Welsh was using the Bible to form a psychological image of Christ in his students. It was a very hard and difficult journey, but one I cannot forget.
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Please excuse the incoherent rambling in my post. I have Parkinson's, and ofterntimes that is the result.
Grace and peace,
Gary Butner
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Gary Butner said:
Please excuse the incoherent rambling in my post. I have Parkinson's, and ofterntimes that is the result.
Grace and peace,
Gary Butner
Hardly thought you incoherent!
for a little plug: I would like to see the Encyclopedia of the Stone-Campbell Movement in Logos.
I like Apples. Especially Honeycrisp.
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Matthew C Jones said:
Theology is just man trying to explain God. Can any man ever really do that? Nope.
Funny, I thought theology is humanity's attempt to explain their experience of God - an elusive but more achievable goal.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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