Works of Alexander Campbell, Barton W. Stone (restoration preachers)

I would like to see a Logos version of the writings of Alexander Campbell and other leaders of the "Restoration Movement."

Alexander was such an eloquent speaker and critical thinker that even though his debate opponents disagreed with his views, they still conceded he won the debates. They even warned each other not to debate him.
This sharp intellect was evidenced in two publications Alexander edited spanning almost 40 years.

The Christian Baptist (published from 1823~30) and
The Millennial Harbinger (published from 1830~66)

Readers from all over would write in questions and arguments tapping or challenging his keen mind. The ongoing dialogue is a good read. Sometimes it makes one go back to the Scriptures for a closer look.

Since Campbell based all of his arguments on the Bible it would be very useful to have this in Libronix format for comparative studies.

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David Emme

Since Campbell based all of his arguments on the Bible it would be very useful to have this in Libronix format for comparative studies.

I agree. Not that I afree with Stone orCampbell, but when they came out with SDA resources, I went ahead and bought it.

A couple of reasons, first, many cults practically ripped off Barton-Stone on restorationism.

In fact, I would like to see Logos publish more works from actual cults such as Mormons and JW's. The reason why because there are some people like me whom have an interest in studying aberrant groups and cults, meaning having access to their materials and source documents is important for research reasons.

On the other hand, there is a so called"Cult" that I learn from quite a bit in my own spirituality. The Local Church of Witness Lee and Watchman Nee.

Of course, I do not think they are a cult and for the most part, taking a portion of one work on the Trinity that emphasizes the onenss of the Trinity and then not approach any other work from Nee or Lee or Living Streams(the publishing arm) where they affirm the orthodox understandng og the Trinity.

Often times, people fail to realize, the standard, orthodox definition of the Trinity includes an element of the Trinity being one, yet three seperate entities.

It is only controversial because they happen to sue orginazations which publish them as cults and yet do not want to enter into a discourse about their beliefs openly.

I went to a Local Church while in the Army in Takoma, researched what everyone said about them about being a cult and did not even approach much of what was stated because I even noticed how people were intentionally warping their views. On the Trinity and other things, I was allowed to freely ask any elder in public, even if I happened to disagree. I just never saw them as a cult. I took the time to actually find out and recievedmany blessings from that assembly.

Yes, they are also a bit restorational and disagree with that, but they never had a problem with my disagreement.

Yet, we can buy SDA and now Roman Catholic resources(which I really do not have a problem with), but when something else is considered contreversial-we are not going to see them on Logos.

Roman Catholicism not controversial? I think many martyrs will disgree. Ellen G White's writings not controversial? Only because some in Christianity took them off their cult list.

MJ. Smith

Since Campbell based all of his arguments on the Bible it would be very useful to have this in Libronix format for comparative studies.

I agree not because I would purchase them but because I think they would help pull in another potential group of Logos users ... and I support each step towards a broader constituency. My bias is, of course, the Orthodox-Catholic-Lutheran-Anglican end of the resources but I'm willing to support the small steps along the way.

Matthew C Jones

A couple of reasons, first, many cults practically ripped off Barton-Stone on restorationism

I was suprised myself to learn how some early writings of the Jehovah's Witnesses did get copied from the Restoration Movement. Also it is my understanding a bit of Mormonism was copied from the Masonic Lodge. I am also familiar with Watchman Nee and respected his life work and writings very much, I don't know as much about Witness Lee but I am aware of a later cult-ish type following that emerged.

I think in most sects, whether we would call them cults or just denominnations, The original founders would be shocked to see the modern day result.

I find it useful to be aware of the teachings of other groups. I have Decker's Complete Handbook on Mormonism on pre-pub for just that reason. I also have the SDA commentaries . I think the writings of Alexander Campbell are different in that you can witness his growth as he corrects his stand based on further study. In other words, I think he was an honest man truly searching for what the Bible taught rather than what men said.

David Emme

I was suprised myself to learn how some early writings of the Jehovah's Witnesses did get copied from the Restoration Movement

Actually, I have done quite a bit of research on this and wrote an article showing this. Now, if you are a Church of Christ type person, might get a bit offended by it and is not my intention.

I know this, the person who started the Christedelphians broke from the Disciples of Christ and the JW's broke from the Chrisedelphians though they believe practically the same doctrine.

As far as Mormons, Thomas Ridgely broke from the Campbell-Stone movement and if I recollect correctly, was one of th three witnesses of the Golden plates of the book of Mormon.

There is nothing original aout Mormonism. Yes, they copied from the Masonic Lodge. They copied all their beliefs on Christ, God and planets from Sweedenborgism. I have one bookmrkd site which shows which book that you can still buy on Amazon by a Canadian Sweedenborgist author where practically they copied him word for word. Sweedenborgism is a Gnostic religion. Also have a bookmark which shows another witness of the golden plates of Morminism sat under a Pastor who taught that the American Indians was "the lost tribe of Israel". I think there was even a book with the same teaching by that Pastor. I think that pastor was ether Plymouth Bretheren or perhaps a Presbytarian.

Actually, in my observations, all these cults started about the same time(in the 1800's) and in the same general regional area-Pennsylvania and New York.

All very interesting. Mybe I should write a book showing how the Mormons do not have one original beief.

Again, my intention is not to offend if you are a Church of Christ/Disciple of Christ believer. My intention is not to offend or get in a big debate about baptsm. I should also note, I am a Baptist and if yu know the Baptist belief on Baptism, you could see why I would not agree with the Church of Christ understanding of baptism. If you want to see the article(Did not put any resources, though I posess them, I have literally hundreds of bookmarks and need to start organizing them.) then let me know and I will send it to you. my email is daveme7@yahoo.com. Understand, if you are a Disciple/Curch of Christ believer or from a denomination that broke off from the DOC/COC, you will be offended. If you can read past some things on that, there is much that I think is insightful. Of course I am biased, I wrote it:)

I also have the same work on pre pub among the many things I have on prepub.

Again, I cannot emphasize enough, My intention is not to be offensive or start a big ole debate over baptism. I just do not know you very well and want to keep in the spirit of discussion with Logos related business.

As far as later followers of the Local Church. Just like when someone switches from Arminianism to Calvinism or in my case, went from a Pentecostal to a Baptist , many times people in their immaturity will take a radicalized position in seeing the light about something you previusly did not believe.

In the Local Church, since it has been a smaller body of believers-I think that might have an affect which would cause many to see them as a "Cult" based on bad behaivor as opposed to behaivor of a more mature Christian that went through that part of immaturity and has patiance with those going through that and those who do not agree 100% with their own doctrine. In fact, I am writing about my experiances in the Local Church and my understanding of their doctrine from a Baptist perspective. I do not know where I would publish it, but can say learning from them and some of the writings from Nee or Lee has benefited me a lot-and I mean very much of a blessing to me. I do not know if can express how much of a blessing my time with them was, but it has done much for me in God breaking me of my pride and lead me to understand what true spirituality and sanctification is.

God bless

Dave Emme

Calvin Habig

Matthew:

I know that it is not exactly what you are asking for, but I am in the process of producing PBB's of documents from the Stone-Campbell movement. Currently, I have

"The Christian System" and "The Sermon on the Law" by Alexander Campbell;
"Declaration and Address" by Thomas Campbell;
"Treatise on the Eldership" by J.W. McGarvey (his "Fourfold Gospel" and "Commentary on Acts" are already available from Logos);
"Our Position" by Isaac Errett;
"Address to the Churches in KY, OH & KY"; "Observations on Church Government to Which Has been Added the Last Will & Testament of the Springfield Presbytery" by Barton W. Stone;
"Breakup of a Movement: The Sand Creek Documents"(the original "Sand Creek Declaration" and subsequent documents which led to the non-instrumental churches of Christ separating from the rest of the movement) by Daniel Sommers;
and I have selected works from the 1909 Centennial Convention Report. This one is a massive undertaking and I probably will only put into PBB format those articles that seem to have contemporary relevance. (Some are financial reports and lists of committee persons).

You can find these for free download on my website: www.calhabig.com under the PBB page. (You have to have the PBB key to read them, but it is available in almost all of the Liibronix collections).

I am also still working on:"The Atonement: The Substance of Two Letters Written to a Friend," by Barton W. Stone and "The Works of Barton W. Stone"; J.W. McGarvey's "Commentary on Thessalonians, Corinthians, Galatians and Romans"; "Treatise on the Elder's Office" by William Ballentine.

So many resources,so little time. If you have thoughts or suggestions, leave them and I'll check back. Or drop me a note at cal.habig@gmail.com

All the best.

(Interesting discussion. Sydney Rigdon's taking Restoration principles to Joseph Smith is well known and well documented, but the tie with JW's was news to me.)

Calvin Habig

David:

It is Sydney Rigdon, not Thomas Ridgely.

All the best,

Cal Habig

John Nerdue

The word "cult" has lost all meaning in our day and age. Anyone who disagrees with us is considered in a cult now. People who are King James Only are cult members, people who hold to the modern text and textual criticism are cult members. The Baptists who are Calvinists are in a cult. ect, ect, ect. The word is only used to inflame. It is intended to insult others so as soon as you use the word cult you are offending people because that is what the word is meant to do in our day.

Some quotes:

"...if you believe in it, it is a religion or perhaps 'the' religion;
and if you do not care one way or another about it, it is a sect;
but if you fear and hate it, it is a cult." Leo Pfeffer. A humorous quotation, but one that is uncomfortably close to reality.

"Cults are claimed to be deceitful. They are claimed to be harmful to their members. They are claimed to be undermining American values. Cults are claimed to be just about every bad thing in the book these days, and with the pervasive images of Manson and Jim Jones hanging over us, any group that is called a cult is immediately associated with those two people." J. Gordon Melton.

"My working definition of a cult is a group that you don't like, and I say that somewhat facetiously, but at the same time, in fact, that is my working definition of a cult. It is a group that somebody doesn't like. It is a derogatory term, and I have never seen it redeemed from the derogatory connotations that it picked up in the sociological literature in the 1930s." J. Gordon Melton.

"A cult is a church down the street from your church." Anon

http://www.religioustolerance.org/cults.htm

Matthew C Jones

You can find these for free download on my website: www.calhabig.com under the PBB page. (You have to have the PBB key to read them, but it is available in almost all of the Liibronix collections).

Thank you Calvin,

I will surely be downloading from your site and encourage you to continue your work on these. These points raised in this forum are exactly why I DO promote wider scope of Logos resources. If I had the money I would buy the feminist writings, the Pentecostal, the Luthern, the Methodist, the Catholic, even Karl Barth![;)]

I do however have a tender spot in my heart for the "Restoration Movement" leaders - with all their flaws & foibles.

Matthew C Jones

Again, I cannot emphasize enough, My intention is not to be offensive or start a big ole debate over baptism. I just do not know you very well and want to keep in the spirit of discussion with Logos related business.

I'm not offended. (FYI: I attend an Independent Fundamentalist Baptist church. They are more Fundamentalist than I. And I am more Independent than they.[:)])

To give you a hint; I love Francis Schaeffer, J.I.Packer, Bonhoeffer, Greg Harris among others.

David Emme

I'm not offended. (FYI: I attend an Independent Fundamentalist Baptist church. They are more Fundamentalist than I. And I am more Independent than they.)

To give you a hint; I love Francis Schaeffer, J.I.Packer, Bonhoeffer, Greg Harris among others.

Thanks. Interestingly, I consider my self an Independent Fundamental Baptist, though not active in a church do to some of my disabilities recieved from getting wounded in Iraq. One disability, the Lord has been merciful and has taken away. Now, just need to overcome sleep problems. If everyone could pray for this to be healed in my life as well as a PTSD sympton of being fearful when in crowds. On this, I do not believe I fear any man in this world, yet, when in crowds, I will post haste leave.

As an IFB, I love Paul Washer,John Macarthur, appreciate many of the authors you mentioned as well as AW Pink, John Bunyan, and John Owen.

I happen to also consider myself a Calvinist and desire to be a missionary in the Philippines.

On the other hand, I am a King James Onyist, but feel it is sin to judge other Christian's salvation or quality of their faith. Most times, we are in sin in this. Does not prevent me from critiqing(?) other versions, but James White is not the devil nor is he a liar or deciever. I rather enjoy watching his videos on youtube and enjoy reading his books on Calvinism.

I am also one whom believes and agrees on Lordship Salvation.

Yet, knowing much about this on what I believe, most in IFB circles will say I am a heretick. I even see where some non Baptistic evangelicals will state that if you believe in Calvinism, you are a cultist. I have seen this happen.

Also, have experianced some anti KJV people accuse me of being in a cult. So in the end,I figure some one will be alling me a cultist, though I do not do the same ting to Arminians, Modern Version believers and who else ever disagrees with me and counts one of my beliefs a heresy.

This is where I really see some like the Local Church might just have a point with their brand of restorationism.

At some point in time, I have come to the understanding, I do not care what others think of me whether my stuff is considered heretical by one group or another.

I answer to my conscience in my studies of the word of God and only to the Lord. I cannot worry about what others think of my beliefs, though when it comes to raising money for missions-this will cost me big time.

My definition o fa cult is this-Another Bible, another Christ, and another way of salvation.

Usually I will try to take all three, but sometimes, if a group takes one-it can influance the other beiefs or one erroneous belief magnified above the others.

Yet, I usually try to keep it in those three definitions before I label someone as a cultist or in a cult.

Do me a favor and write me an email. First, because it is rare that I find someone in an IFB church which has no problem reading similar authors. On the other hand, I would really like to send you my article since we are both interested in restoration groups.

God bless

Dave Emme

David Buckham

As a minister in the Christian Church (Restoration Movement) and graduate of a Restoration Bible college (now a University...Cincinnati Christian University), in other words one who has heard a lot about Campbell and Stone and one who grew up in KY (a hot bed of the Restoration Movement) I will say I am not offended at the cult comments.

In all fairness though, every (which is not a word anyone used) "Christian-themed" cult out there copied an aspect from Jesus and His disciples. Campbell (both of them) and Stone (along with many others) were not the originators of their ideas of restorationism.

I would love to see a Restoration Movement collection...history, doctrine, old school published debates, journals, papers...even the new stuff out there.

all about Christ,
David Buckham

Calvin Habig

I'm working on doing what I can, David! I put another group up today. Check out the Restoration Movement PBBs at www.calhabig.com/pbb.html. Almost have Campbells Baptism: Its Antecedents and Consequents done. Hope to have it up in the next week. Would love to know of others doing this so we do duplicate efforts. (A Manhattan Christian College and Emmanuel School of Religion grad here).

BTW: with the (probably appropriate) testiness here recently about linking to other sites, it seems fair to link to my site since they are PBBs that Logos does not sell and they are free. If such is not the case, please let me know.

Calvin Habig

That should have been "so we DON'T duplicate efforts"!

David Fish

In 1976, Dr. Knofel Staton, who at the time was teaching at Ozark Bible College (now Ozark Christian College) in Joplin, MO, published a paraphrase of Thomas Campbell's Declaration and Address. The document is available online (HTML) at http://www.mun.ca/rels/restmov/texts/tcampbell/etc/DA-KS.HTM.

I have been wanting to try my hand at the Personal Book Builder, so as my first project, I compiled this document. I did it for my own personal use. This afternoon, I spoke with Dr. Staton, to get his permission to distribute it through this forum.

Thanks to Cal Habig for the many documents produced and made available here. Here is my small contribution.7217.Knofel Staton's Paraphrase (1976) of Thomas Campbell's Declaration and Address.zip

Matthew C Jones

In 1976, Dr. Knofel Staton, who at the time was teaching at Ozark Bible College (now Ozark Christian College) in Joplin, MO, published a paraphrase of Thomas Campbell's Declaration and Address. The document is available online (HTML) at http://www.mun.ca/rels/restmov/texts/tcampbell/etc/DA-KS.HTM.

I have been wanting to try my hand at the Personal Book Builder, so as my first project, I compiled this document. I did it for my own personal use. This afternoon, I spoke with Dr. Staton, to get his permission to distribute it through this forum.

My father introduced me to Dr. Staton when I was a little kid. (Probably at a NACC or a missionary convention.) A great man is he. I always held him in high esteem alongside Don Dewelt. Thanks for producing this.

Thanks to Cal Habig for the many documents produced and made available here. Here is my small contribution.7217.Knofel Staton's Paraphrase (1976) of Thomas Campbell's Declaration and Address.zip

Everybody makes Personal Book Building look easy. I am sure it is not but I appreciate the many books others are making and will soon attempt a some obscure work to see if I can do this. Is there a "clearing house" to know what projects others might be working on so there is no duplication?

Alex Scott

I don't think so, but if you start a project, post a note, and if someone else is already working on it, they'll probably let you know. That's happened in the past.

David Buckham

David Fish,

As a Mac user of Logos, I cannot yet access PBB files (my only major complaint about Logos Mac, but I am patient). The link does not work. Can you check it? Thanks.

Anyone doing anything for the anniversary of Declaration and Address this year?

all about Christ,
David Buckham

Calvin Habig

There isn't a clearing house, but the PBB page on my website site (www.calhabig.com/pbb.html) is the only place I know of really to download Stone-Campbell Movement PBBs. I also list some things there that I am working on. I need to update it today or tomorrow anyway. If David will give me permission to link to his file, it can be accessed from there. If you e-mail me with Stone-Campbell Movement (in recognition that there are in reality NUMEROUS Protestant group who call themselves "Restoration Movements," I would be happy to list them there for all to know that they are coming...and to avoid duplication.

Cal Habig

Calvin Habig

David:

The correct link at the Memorial University site is: http://www.mun.ca/rels/restmov/texts/tcampbell/etc/DA-KS.HTM

The link to the PBB is correct.

Haven't heard of anyone doing anything in commemoration. Quite a pity, after the huge shin-dig that they had in 1909. Surely there is SOMETHING, but it is a well-guarded secret if there is.

MJ. Smith

I can do this. Is there a "clearing house" to know what projects others might be working on so there is no duplication?

I would like to see Logos maintain such a clearing house and to maintain a single site from which the most current versions were available. It would appear that they have established a pattern for such a site with the Sermons. However, I don't know what copyright concerns there might be to such a site.

Kolen Cheung

On the other hand, there is a so
called"Cult" that I learn from quite a bit in my own spirituality. The
Local Church of Witness Lee and Watchman Nee.

One helpful reminder: distinguish Watchman Nee from Witness Lee, where the later one claim that he is on the same line as Nee did. And people who attacked Witness Lee and his ministry, saying that they are cults have nothing to do with Watchman Nee's doctrine. Finally, Witness Lee and his ministry is not a cult, the first organization claim that they are cult change their mind on the end of last year, after a thorough study.

By the way, I believe this is a very controversial topic, and we better be conservative: do not judge before we know much about it. (You know, if you say that they are cult, they will react so vigorously. And when I say they, I mean I am not one of them. So, don't get me wrong. I wrote to protect you.)

Lonnie Ritchie

I fully agree. The works of these great "Restorers" would be a fine addition to my Logos library.

Lonnie Ritchie

Kolen Cheung

What is a "Restorers"?

By the way, I don't think the Live Stream Ministry would allow the publication of their books in Logos, or anywhere else. What's a pity.

For the Chinese one, I believe that the original Chinese books by Watchman Nee are out of copy right. So I actually make a suggestion on it. But as Chinese titles are never seems (apart from one Chinese bible, in two different characters), there might not be any Chinese titles in the near future.

Friedrich

What is a "Restorers"?

Kolen, this is a term given to several (mostly American based) men who started a movement to unify Christians and "restore" New Testament Christianity in the early 1800's. That movement has taken shape in 3 main streams today:

Christian Church (Disciple of Christ)
"Independent" Christian Churches/churches of Christ
Church of Christ (acapella)

The founders were concerned that Christianity had fragmented into a variety of denominations (many named after "men") and had gotten away from what they thought was a faithful living out of the faith and practice of the early church. Many of them came from Presbyterian, Methodist, and Baptist backgrounds. Their desire was to unite under the person and name of Christ (hence, "Christian Church", etc), use the Bible as the "rule of faith" (rather than dividing according to written, man-made creeds), and be very missions minded. It was at one time the fastest growing movement in America and one of the largest indigenously spawned "denominations." (yes, a non-denominational denomination! [:P]). Some current well known leaders/preachers in the movement are Max Lucado and Bob Russell (Southeast Christian Church, Louisville, Kentucky).

Unfortunately their ideals have often run into a huge problem: mankind. The unity movement spawned 3 major streams and several other divisions. Although the Disciples have taken an Ecumenical approach with several other more "liberal" denominations, and the Independents and "acapella" (they don't use instruments for worship, generally speaking) Church of Christ have made overtures to one another, as have all 3, in various ways.

"Restoring" NT Christianity is a difficult proposition in itself: "what" do you restore? How do you decide between descriptive and prescriptive, etc.

That is pretty brief, but at least it may help you get a bit of a grip on who is being referred to.

David A. Peterson

a non-denominational denomination!

a source of amusement to a close Presbyterian friend, who thought it funny that non-denominational churches would have their own Bible colleges, magazines, and publishing companies. He would use that very same phrase. . . Is there nothing more edifying and enjoyable than a friendly discussion on differing points amongst the varied fellowship?

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MJ. Smith

Many of them came from Presbyterian, Methodist, and Baptist backgrounds.

There was also a significant Mennonite component, most notably a group that included my great great grandfather and the group he moved West with. I refer to them as Civil War refugees ... northerners who moved west to avoid the draft.

vitor spadeto

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is this package .. I can not buy is expensive for me at the moment .. but I would investigate it by LOGOS SOFTWARE ...

Is this package:

https://www.logos.com/product/39689/living-stream-ministry-life-study-of-the-bible