Sad about community pricing

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This post has 58 Replies | 2 Followers

Posts 579
Jim VanSchoonhoven | Forum Activity | Posted: Tue, Nov 15 2011 7:21 AM

Community pricing is one of the best ways to buld you library at the lowest cost.  However, if you were not a owner of Logos when a resource was on community pricing your chance to buy that resource at a really good price is never offered to you.  As an example recently those that currently own Logos could have picked up the Critical and Exegetical Commentary on the New Testament (21 vols.)  for only 30.00 but now it is on pre-pub for 210.00 and latter it will go higher! Those that buy Logos next week will never see a 30.00 price for that set, if they did they might pick it up to build their library.  Wouldn't it be nice when you first bought Logos you were given a certain period of time to pick up communty pricing items from before your time, at a greatly reduced price.  This would encourage you to build your library at great prices and Logos would pick up many sales. There are books from communtity pricing that I would have bid on, but I did not own Logos at the time they were offered, but now they are out of my price range. I can not afford them and am looking some where else to get them.

How many others are out there that  wish they could have been offered lower prices on past CP items for a limited time! Would a program such as this helped you to start building your library and would ths also give Logos many more sales and encourage future bidding on CP because as a new person uou became aware of the great deals to presents to you!

We live in hard times and something like this might help out Logos  and new folks.

Posts 17
Mark Yocom | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 15 2011 7:34 AM

Jim, I could understand how you feel... Missing out on pass CP deals.... However, no matter when you step into Logo's there are many more volumes of outstanding material both presently available and to be added in the future in CP.... So don't be discouraged but keep a look out for the new stuff to come and check out what is still available now!!

Posts 165
Wayne | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 15 2011 8:03 AM

Community Pricing has been around for awhile, but several years ago books and especially sets moved slowly. It was so bad that I remember Bob P. asking in at least one newsgroup post in the old forums about the viability of Community Pricing.

With the advent of Logos 4 the number of users increased dramatically.  I think the best days for Community Pricing are ahead. Now there is enough users for books to put into production much quicker. Logos has many more books ready to be put into production. See the quote below taken from DTS Turpin Library web site:

 

Digitization/Scanning/Ebook Project Begins Nov 2004

Nov, 2004. Logos, well known publisher of electronic/digital books and developer of Logos/Libronix bible study software, is now scanning public domain books from the Turpin Library collection. The scanning crew is using the very sophisticated robotic Kirtas scanner. Only books published before 1923 are being scanned because we can be certain the copyright has expired on these materials. Logos may scan as many as 15,000 volumes(?) at Turpin Library, then move to another library. Expect to see publication information at the Logos website in about a year.

Posts 10797
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 15 2011 8:07 AM

As with earlier threads on this general subject, pricing of CP/public-domain resources on Logos is atrocious. I just can't see a lesser word being appropriate. $210 for Meyer AFTER costs are covered. And pre-pub?

My impression is the pricing concept is designed to fluff-up the package levels ($19,000 value for ONLY $3,000!!!). Or periodically discount to build some cash flow.

But when the day is over, the 'Cadillac of Bible software' (Logos' description) demands contributions from users, and copyright material from publishers can only be over-priced so much.

And the drumbeat of 'well, these resources require tagging etc' doesn't work; those costs were covered in the CP computation.

I had bid on the Revelations CP but eventually just downloaded the Hort PDF and read it. Tired of feeling like a mouse on a treadmill, especially when I thoroughly enjoy Libronix.

 

"I didn't know God made honky tonk angels."

Posts 485
Randy Lane | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 15 2011 8:39 AM

The vast number of these recources will end up as part of one of the base packages in a future release, say version 5.0

This has historically been the case ever since I've used Logos, which started at version 1.0

I too thought resources like the one Denise points out to be great bargains when I got them and then noticed how much they cost as a stand alone product. A few years down the road though, most all of those got rolled into a base package for little or no additional cost.

When major upgrades come I always moan over what I could have saved by not buying pre-pub and CP bargains. The upgrade "discounts" Logos offers to those who already own resources that get added to the new release never come close to closing the gap I am referring to. I remember tallying that amount for upgrading to 4.0 and the "discount" I got compared to a "new" user was paltry.

So, keep track of what you spend and when Logos 5.0 comes along, see now much you "really" saved by participating in the pre-pub or community pricing programs. If your experience is anything like mine, you'll be astonished.

Posts 645
Dean J | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 15 2011 8:42 AM

Funny you mention Hort. I'm presently reading Bouset's The Antichrist Legend, after pretty much giving hope that the Revelation series will ever go into publication at a reasonable price.

I don't think Logos is doing itself any favors by pricing public-domain, otherwise freely available books at prices one would expect to pay for brand-new academic titles. Just how many people are going to pay a few hundred dollars for a set that can be read for free on pdf? However great the search feature is, it is not justified by the cost.

Looking to the future, how long before public domain books on google etc will be searchable in the pdf downloads? (some already are). At that point it will be questionable what advantage there is to having them in Logos at all, even if 20 volumes are sold for $5. I can't see any reason why books leaving CP can't be priced at 150% or 200% of the CP price. Charging nearly ten times as much as pure profit is beyond excessive, and would, I suspect, hurt Logos' sales as well as its marketing (who is going to sign up for a Logos package knowing how inflated the price of public domain books is - quite apart from the feeling this obviously creates among Logos users). I understand there is the cost of maintaining servers etc, and I am happy to pay a reasonable price to have materials in Logos. 

No doubt I will now get the usual knee-jerk  'if you don't like it you don't have to buy it' responses, ignoring all the actual points I've made.

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 15 2011 9:07 AM

Wayne:

Community Pricing has been around for awhile, but several years ago books and especially sets moved slowly. It was so bad that I remember Bob P. asking in at least one newsgroup post in the old forums about the viability of Community Pricing.

With the advent of Logos 4 the number of users increased dramatically.  I think the best days for Community Pricing are ahead. Now there is enough users for books to put into production much quicker. Logos has many more books ready to be put into production. See the quote below taken from DTS Turpin Library web site:

 

Digitization/Scanning/Ebook Project Begins Nov 2004

Nov, 2004. Logos, well known publisher of electronic/digital books and developer of Logos/Libronix bible study software, is now scanning public domain books from the Turpin Library collection. The scanning crew is using the very sophisticated robotic Kirtas scanner. Only books published before 1923 are being scanned because we can be certain the copyright has expired on these materials. Logos may scan as many as 15,000 volumes(?) at Turpin Library, then move to another library. Expect to see publication information at the Logos website in about a year.

Some points: 

  1. Does Amazon and B & N or any publisher ever reduce its price once the production costs are met?
  2. Sale prices are generally for a limited period, and the saying "when it's gone it's gone" generally applies.  No publisher or maketer runs a perpetual sale.
  3. I really grow tired of complaints regarding pricing.  If you don't like the price, don't buy it and don't complain about it.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 274
Mike W | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 15 2011 9:30 AM

Wayne:

Community Pricing has been around for awhile, but several years ago books and especially sets moved slowly. It was so bad that I remember Bob P. asking in at least one newsgroup post in the old forums about the viability of Community Pricing.

 

This is still very frustrating.  I recently cancelled a prepub that has been in production for over four years.  It would be great if Logos could provide a rough estimate of timeframes once enough bids are recieved to produce the books (months? years?). I tend to bid on books that add to sets I have but I'm very careful about other Community Pricing books since I don't know If they will be available in one month or if I'll be waiting four years or more (both occur with Community Pricing).  Age wise I'm closer to retirement than to seminary and I'd like to know that I'll get the books soon enough to get good use out of them.

Posts 10797
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 15 2011 9:39 AM

Well, Mike, I hate to tell you this, but when retired, you actually have LESS time (hard to believe). So, yes, real shipped product is critical!

"I didn't know God made honky tonk angels."

Posts 2839
Michael Childs | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 15 2011 9:51 AM

Jim VanSchoonhoven:
As an example recently those that currently own Logos could have picked up the Critical and Exegetical Commentary on the New Testament (21 vols.)  for only 30.00 but now it is on pre-pub for 210.00 and latter it will go higher!

Logos does not seriously expect to sell this public domain set for $210.  Personally, I bid $25 and decided not to go a cent higher.  So I missed it. I was not too disappointed. My resources are limited and my need for out of date commentaries is too.   But if I wouldn't pay $30, there is no way I would pay $200.

It will simply be part of packages - a throw away set for Logos - to promote sales.  It might be part of a "12 Days of Christmas" sale or a "March Madness" sale.  But no one takes the $210 price seriously - I would think.

"In all cases, the Church is to be judged by the Scripture, not the Scripture by the Church," John Wesley

Posts 8967
RIP
Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 15 2011 12:46 PM

Jim VanSchoonhoven:
Wouldn't it be nice when you first bought Logos you were given a certain period of time to pick up communty pricing items from before your time, at a greatly reduced price.  This would encourage you to build your library at great prices and Logos would pick up many sales.

Yes Cool I like that idea so much I would buy another base package just to get those Pre-Pub prices I missed out on. Big Smile

Jim VanSchoonhoven:
Those that buy Logos next week will never see a 30.00 pr[ce for that set,

I have seen several resource collections that go on super sale at a price that is very close to the Pre-Pub price. It is rare, but it happens.

 

Logos 7 Collectors Edition

Posts 579
Jim VanSchoonhoven | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 15 2011 12:59 PM

I  guess no one agrees this would be a good idea and some people seem to believe public domain sets are no good, it makes me wonder if they ever used them, I did and and find many public doman books worth more to me than books we are puttng out today.

The real point I was making was that a change in the program mght help people with less money build their libraries, but no one seems to agree with that, it is not that I am complaining about Communtiry Pricing, I actually use it alot, in fact most of my orders now days come from there and I am thankful to see many fo the books that are on there now, I used many of them working on my DTh degree before I had a stoke.

Posts 645
Dean J | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 15 2011 1:15 PM

Jim VanSchoonhoven:

I  guess no one agrees this would be a good idea and some people seem to believe public domain sets are no good, it makes me wonder if they ever used them, I did and and find many public doman books worth more to me than books we are puttng out today.

Nobody has said they are 'no good' and it is unfair of you to suggest otherwise.  I greatly value older scholarship and use it a lot, but their works are otherwise available without cost, and so why would I - or anyone else - pay hundreds of dollars to have them in Logos when I can just read them in pdf? Don't confuse economic price and the value attached to them. If no-one attached value to them, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Posts 8967
RIP
Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 15 2011 1:21 PM

Mike W:
This is still very frustrating.  I recently cancelled a prepub that has been in production for over four years. 

It took almost forever for Barnes Notes to get published. Other Pre-Pubs have just fallen off the edge of the earth, never more to be heard from:

  • Samaritan Pentateuch
  • Oxford Latin Dictionary
  • Crum's Coptic Dictionary

As you can see from my current Community Pricing list, I'm still holding out hope for Crum's........

Mike W:
but I'm very careful about other Community Pricing books since I don't know If they will be available in one month or if I'll be waiting four years or more (both occur with Community Pricing).

Yes, I was rather surprised to see Classic Commentaries and Studies on Genesis go from Community Pricing to shipping in a matter of weeks.

Mike W:
Age wise I'm closer to retirement than to seminary and I'd like to know that I'll get the books soon enough to get good use out of them.

I too am much closer to my "end" than my beginning. My consolation in buying Logos is how it makes my limited time more productive. I squeeze more out of each hour invested. Then, when I move on up Angel, the library will be left behind for someone with more time to make use of it.

Have we stopped to ponder the fact that not everyone who subscribed to the Evangelical Exegetical Commentary series will be alive to take delivery of the last volume shipping in 2019?

 

Logos 7 Collectors Edition

Posts 645
Dean J | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 15 2011 1:22 PM

George Somsel:
 I  really grow tired of complaints regarding pricing.  If you don't like the price, don't buy it and don't complain about it.

I grow tired of reading posts that complain about people discussing products and prices. If you don't want to read what I and others have to say, don't, and don't complain about it.

Amazon don't sell public domain works for full price on kindle, so the analogy doesn't hold. And hard copies of older works typically don't have the high mark-up of recently produced academic titles.  

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 15 2011 1:41 PM

Super Tramp:
I too am much closer to my "end" than my beginning. My consolation in buying Logos is how it makes my limited time more productive. I squeeze more out of each hour invested. Then, when I move on up Angel, the library will be left behind for someone with more time to make use of it.

But I have promises to keep,
And miles to go before I sleep,
And miles to go before I sleep.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 579
Jim VanSchoonhoven | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 15 2011 1:42 PM

Dean. I made a general statement of my own ideas and I was only making a general statement that I think is true some folks do not understand the value of public domain books, I never mentioned your name, I was only stating my belief. I am not sure why this was unfair to say.

Posts 8967
RIP
Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 15 2011 1:59 PM

Dean053:
I don't think Logos is doing itself any favors by pricing public-domain, otherwise freely available books at prices one would expect to pay for brand-new academic titles. Just how many people are going to pay a few hundred dollars for a set that can be read for free on pdf? However great the search feature is, it is not justified by the cost.

That is your valuation, others obviously do not agree because somebody is buying resources. Somebody entered a $170 bid for Classic Commentaries on Revelation (and no, it wasn't me!)

Dean053:
George Somsel:
 I  really grow tired of complaints regarding pricing.  If you don't like the price, don't buy it and don't complain about it.
I grow tired of reading posts that complain about people discussing products and prices. If you don't want to read what I and others have to say, don't, and don't complain about it.

This could go on all week.

  • "I don't like thus & such."
  • "I don't like hearing you express your dislike for thus & such."
  • "I don't like hearing you complain about my complaints about thus & such.
  • "Well, You can just withdraw from the arena of public discourse if you don't like what you hear."
  • You should just follow your own advice and go home. You are not welcome in our public discussion."

It all sounds like the Fox & the Grapes.  I requested Logos publish the College Press Bible Study Textbook Series (59 volumes) even though I already own them in PDF.  I am happy to place a Pre-Pub bid for it at $229. The only people I really feel sorry for are those who are willing to pay the price for resources but just don't have the funds.

There is a big difference between the rich man who owns many sheep, yet steals his neighbor's lamb for a feast and the man who sold all that he had to purchase the one pearl of great price. Most Logos users are not rich. And I bet most Logos employees are not either. If Logos tagging and integration into the resource library is not worth the price, just go with the public domain PDFs and thank God they are available for free.

 

Logos 7 Collectors Edition

Posts 645
Dean J | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 15 2011 3:17 PM

Valid questions have been raised, and Logos has a right to hear feedback from customers. The fact that some people are willing to pay for something does not mean that they don't consider it excessive. I sometimes pay for things - for a variety of reasons - that I think are excessive in price. Even if everyone in the world didn't agree with me, it wouldn't make me wrong, and it wouldn't necessitate that I keep my views to myself. If you don't like my views, that is your prerogative, but I shall speak my mind nevertheless. You talk about the fox and the grapes, as though I'm just mindlessly complaining (even though I was just making a point by framing his 'complaint' in his own words), which I am not. So what even is your point? Why exactly am I not supposed to say what I have said? Your use of Nathan's parable is creative, seems totally unrelated to this present question. Your last sentence only says what I had already said myself -  that I have used the public domain pdfs rather than pay over a hundred dollars for a freely available set. I suppose you were really saying 'just read the pdfs and be quiet  and keep your opinion to yourself and be grateful'. 

Posts 579
Jim VanSchoonhoven | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 15 2011 3:47 PM

I love logos but of course since I had a stoke I will have to learn how to reuse it, but I pick up free public domain for theWord when it is priced too high in Logos, all I was suggesting was a twik to  the community pricing  program that would allow people with less money to at least pick up resources that had been on community pricing for a less costly price for a short period of time.  I acually have over 3700 modules in theWord,but I would still like to have them in Logos because it does even more than theWord even though I can make collections and search them in theWord. 

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