Sad about community pricing

Community pricing is one of the best ways to buld you library at the lowest cost. However, if you were not a owner of Logos when a resource was on community pricing your chance to buy that resource at a really good price is never offered to you. As an example recently those that currently own Logos could have picked up the Critical and Exegetical Commentary on the New Testament (21 vols.) for only 30.00 but now it is on pre-pub for 210.00 and latter it will go higher! Those that buy Logos next week will never see a 30.00 price for that set, if they did they might pick it up to build their library. Wouldn't it be nice when you first bought Logos you were given a certain period of time to pick up communty pricing items from before your time, at a greatly reduced price. This would encourage you to build your library at great prices and Logos would pick up many sales. There are books from communtity pricing that I would have bid on, but I did not own Logos at the time they were offered, but now they are out of my price range. I can not afford them and am looking some where else to get them.

How many others are out there that wish they could have been offered lower prices on past CP items for a limited time! Would a program such as this helped you to start building your library and would ths also give Logos many more sales and encourage future bidding on CP because as a new person uou became aware of the great deals to presents to you!

We live in hard times and something like this might help out Logos and new folks.

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Comments

Mark Yocom

Jim, I could understand how you feel... Missing out on pass CP deals.... However, no matter when you step into Logo's there are many more volumes of outstanding material both presently available and to be added in the future in CP.... So don't be discouraged but keep a look out for the new stuff to come and check out what is still available now!!

Wayne

Community Pricing has been around for awhile, but several years ago books and especially sets moved slowly. It was so bad that I remember Bob P. asking in at least one newsgroup post in the old forums about the viability of Community Pricing.

With the advent of Logos 4 the number of users increased dramatically. I think the best days for Community Pricing are ahead. Now there is enough users for books to put into production much quicker. Logos has many more books ready to be put into production. See the quote below taken from DTS Turpin Library web site:

Digitization/Scanning/Ebook Project Begins Nov 2004

Nov, 2004. Logos, well known
publisher of electronic/digital books and developer of Logos/Libronix
bible study software, is now scanning public domain books from the
Turpin Library collection. The scanning crew is using the very
sophisticated robotic Kirtas scanner.
Only books published before 1923 are being scanned because we can be
certain the copyright has expired on these materials. Logos may scan as
many as 15,000 volumes(?) at Turpin Library, then move to another
library. Expect to see publication information at the Logos website in
about a year.

DMB

As with earlier threads on this general subject, pricing of CP/public-domain resources on Logos is atrocious. I just can't see a lesser word being appropriate. $210 for Meyer AFTER costs are covered. And pre-pub?

My impression is the pricing concept is designed to fluff-up the package levels ($19,000 value for ONLY $3,000!!!). Or periodically discount to build some cash flow.

But when the day is over, the 'Cadillac of Bible software' (Logos' description) demands contributions from users, and copyright material from publishers can only be over-priced so much.

And the drumbeat of 'well, these resources require tagging etc' doesn't work; those costs were covered in the CP computation.

I had bid on the Revelations CP but eventually just downloaded the Hort PDF and read it. Tired of feeling like a mouse on a treadmill, especially when I thoroughly enjoy Libronix.

Randy Lane

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/305292#Comment_305292

The vast number of these recources will end up as part of one of the base packages in a future release, say version 5.0

This has historically been the case ever since I've used Logos, which started at version 1.0

I too thought resources like the one Denise points out to be great bargains when I got them and then noticed how much they cost as a stand alone product. A few years down the road though, most all of those got rolled into a base package for little or no additional cost.

When major upgrades come I always moan over what I could have saved by not buying pre-pub and CP bargains. The upgrade "discounts" Logos offers to those who already own resources that get added to the new release never come close to closing the gap I am referring to. I remember tallying that amount for upgrading to 4.0 and the "discount" I got compared to a "new" user was paltry.

So, keep track of what you spend and when Logos 5.0 comes along, see now much you "really" saved by participating in the pre-pub or community pricing programs. If your experience is anything like mine, you'll be astonished.

Dean J

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/305292#Comment_305292

Funny you mention Hort. I'm presently reading Bouset's The Antichrist Legend, after pretty much giving hope that the Revelation series will ever go into publication at a reasonable price.

I don't think Logos is doing itself any favors by pricing public-domain, otherwise freely available books at prices one would expect to pay for brand-new academic titles. Just how many people are going to pay a few hundred dollars for a set that can be read for free on pdf? However great the search feature is, it is not justified by the cost.

Looking to the future, how long before public domain books on google etc will be searchable in the pdf downloads? (some already are). At that point it will be questionable what advantage there is to having them in Logos at all, even if 20 volumes are sold for $5. I can't see any reason why books leaving CP can't be priced at 150% or 200% of the CP price. Charging nearly ten times as much as pure profit is beyond excessive, and would, I suspect, hurt Logos' sales as well as its marketing (who is going to sign up for a Logos package knowing how inflated the price of public domain books is - quite apart from the feeling this obviously creates among Logos users). I understand there is the cost of maintaining servers etc, and I am happy to pay a reasonable price to have materials in Logos.

No doubt I will now get the usual knee-jerk 'if you don't like it you don't have to buy it' responses, ignoring all the actual points I've made.

George Somsel

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/305290#Comment_305290

Community Pricing has been around for awhile, but several years ago books and especially sets moved slowly. It was so bad that I remember Bob P. asking in at least one newsgroup post in the old forums about the viability of Community Pricing.

With the advent of Logos 4 the number of users increased dramatically. I think the best days for Community Pricing are ahead. Now there is enough users for books to put into production much quicker. Logos has many more books ready to be put into production. See the quote below taken from DTS Turpin Library web site:

Digitization/Scanning/Ebook Project Begins Nov 2004

Nov, 2004. Logos, well known publisher of electronic/digital books and developer of Logos/Libronix bible study software, is now scanning public domain books from the Turpin Library collection. The scanning crew is using the very sophisticated robotic Kirtas scanner. Only books published before 1923 are being scanned because we can be certain the copyright has expired on these materials. Logos may scan as many as 15,000 volumes(?) at Turpin Library, then move to another library. Expect to see publication information at the Logos website in about a year.

Some points:

Does Amazon and B & N or any publisher ever reduce its price once the production costs are met?
Sale prices are generally for a limited period, and the saying "when it's gone it's gone" generally applies. No publisher or maketer runs a perpetual sale.
I really grow tired of complaints regarding pricing. If you don't like the price, don't buy it and don't complain about it.

Mike W

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/305290#Comment_305290

Community Pricing has been around for awhile, but several years ago books and especially sets moved slowly. It was so bad that I remember Bob P. asking in at least one newsgroup post in the old forums about the viability of Community Pricing.

This is still very frustrating. I recently cancelled a prepub that has been in production for over four years. It would be great if Logos could provide a rough estimate of timeframes once enough bids are recieved to produce the books (months? years?). I tend to bid on books that add to sets I have but I'm very careful about other Community Pricing books since I don't know If they will be available in one month or if I'll be waiting four years or more (both occur with Community Pricing). Age wise I'm closer to retirement than to seminary and I'd like to know that I'll get the books soon enough to get good use out of them.

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/305341#Comment_305341

Well, Mike, I hate to tell you this, but when retired, you actually have LESS time (hard to believe). So, yes, real shipped product is critical!

Mike Childs

As an example recently those that currently own Logos could have picked up the Critical and Exegetical Commentary on the New Testament (21 vols.) for only 30.00 but now it is on pre-pub for 210.00 and latter it will go higher!

Logos does not seriously expect to sell this public domain set for $210. Personally, I bid $25 and decided not to go a cent higher. So I missed it. I was not too disappointed. My resources are limited and my need for out of date commentaries is too. But if I wouldn't pay $30, there is no way I would pay $200.

It will simply be part of packages - a throw away set for Logos - to promote sales. It might be part of a "12 Days of Christmas" sale or a "March Madness" sale. But no one takes the $210 price seriously - I would think.

Matthew C Jones

Wouldn't it be nice when you first bought Logos you were given a certain period of time to pick up communty pricing items from before your time, at a greatly reduced price. This would encourage you to build your library at great prices and Logos would pick up many sales.

[Y] [H] I like that idea so much I would buy another base package just to get those Pre-Pub prices I missed out on. [:D]

Those that buy Logos next week will never see a 30.00 pr[ce for that set,

I have seen several resource collections that go on super sale at a price that is very close to the Pre-Pub price. It is rare, but it happens.

Jim VanSchoonhoven

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/305349#Comment_305349

I guess no one agrees this would be a good idea and some people seem to believe public domain sets are no good, it makes me wonder if they ever used them, I did and and find many public doman books worth more to me than books we are puttng out today.

The real point I was making was that a change in the program mght help people with less money build their libraries, but no one seems to agree with that, it is not that I am complaining about Communtiry Pricing, I actually use it alot, in fact most of my orders now days come from there and I am thankful to see many fo the books that are on there now, I used many of them working on my DTh degree before I had a stoke.

Dean J

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/305405#Comment_305405

I guess no one agrees this would be a good idea and some people seem to believe public domain sets are no good, it makes me wonder if they ever used them, I did and and find many public doman books worth more to me than books we are puttng out today.

Nobody has said they are 'no good' and it is unfair of you to suggest otherwise. I greatly value older scholarship and use it a lot, but their works are otherwise available without cost, and so why would I - or anyone else - pay hundreds of dollars to have them in Logos when I can just read them in pdf? Don't confuse economic price and the value attached to them. If no-one attached value to them, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Matthew C Jones

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/305341#Comment_305341

This is still very frustrating. I recently cancelled a prepub that has been in production for over four years.

It took almost forever for Barnes Notes to get published. Other Pre-Pubs have just fallen off the edge of the earth, never more to be heard from:

Samaritan Pentateuch
Oxford Latin Dictionary
Crum's Coptic Dictionary

As you can see from my current Community Pricing list, I'm still holding out hope for Crum's........

but I'm very careful about other Community Pricing books since I don't know If they will be available in one month or if I'll be waiting four years or more (both occur with Community Pricing).

Yes, I was rather surprised to see Classic Commentaries and Studies on Genesis go from Community Pricing to shipping in a matter of weeks.

Age wise I'm closer to retirement than to seminary and I'd like to know that I'll get the books soon enough to get good use out of them.

I too am much closer to my "end" than my beginning. My consolation in buying Logos is how it makes my limited time more productive. I squeeze more out of each hour invested. Then, when I move on up [A], the library will be left behind for someone with more time to make use of it.

Have we stopped to ponder the fact that not everyone who subscribed to the Evangelical Exegetical Commentary series will be alive to take delivery of the last volume shipping in 2019?

Dean J

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/305330#Comment_305330

I really grow tired of complaints regarding pricing. If you don't like the price, don't buy it and don't complain about it.

I grow tired of reading posts that complain about people discussing products and prices. If you don't want to read what I and others have to say, don't, and don't complain about it.

Amazon don't sell public domain works for full price on kindle, so the analogy doesn't hold. And hard copies of older works typically don't have the high mark-up of recently produced academic titles.

George Somsel

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/305416#Comment_305416

I too am much closer to my "end" than my beginning. My consolation in buying Logos is how it makes my limited time more productive. I squeeze more out of each hour invested. Then, when I move on up , the library will be left behind for someone with more time to make use of it.

But I have promises to keep,
And miles to go before I sleep,
And miles to go before I sleep.

Jim VanSchoonhoven

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/305417#Comment_305417

Dean. I made a general statement of my own ideas and I was only making a general statement that I think is true some folks do not understand the value of public domain books, I never mentioned your name, I was only stating my belief. I am not sure why this was unfair to say.

Matthew C Jones

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/305417#Comment_305417

I don't think Logos is doing itself any favors
by pricing public-domain, otherwise freely available books at prices one
would expect to pay for brand-new academic titles. Just how many people
are going to pay a few hundred dollars for a set that can be read for
free on pdf? However great the search feature is, it is not justified by
the cost.

That is your valuation, others obviously do not agree because somebody is buying resources. Somebody entered a $170 bid for Classic Commentaries on Revelation (and no, it wasn't me!)

I really grow tired of complaints regarding pricing. If you don't like the price, don't buy it and don't complain about it.
I grow tired of reading posts that complain about people discussing products and prices. If you don't want to read what I and others have to say, don't, and don't complain about it.

This could go on all week.

"I don't like thus & such."
"I don't like hearing you express your dislike for thus & such."
"I don't like hearing you complain about my complaints about thus & such.
"Well, You can just withdraw from the arena of public discourse if you don't like what you hear."
You should just follow your own advice and go home. You are not welcome in our public discussion."

It all sounds like the Fox & the Grapes. I requested Logos publish the College Press Bible Study Textbook Series (59 volumes) even though I already own them in PDF. I am happy to place a Pre-Pub bid for it at $229. The only people I really feel sorry for are those who are willing to pay the price for resources but just don't have the funds.

There is a big difference between the rich man who owns many sheep, yet steals his neighbor's lamb for a feast and the man who sold all that he had to purchase the one pearl of great price. Most Logos users are not rich. And I bet most Logos employees are not either. If Logos tagging and integration into the resource library is not worth the price, just go with the public domain PDFs and thank God they are available for free.

Dean J

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/305432#Comment_305432

Valid questions have been raised, and Logos has a right to hear feedback from customers. The fact that some people are willing to pay for something does not mean that they don't consider it excessive. I sometimes pay for things - for a variety of reasons - that I think are excessive in price. Even if everyone in the world didn't agree with me, it wouldn't make me wrong, and it wouldn't necessitate that I keep my views to myself. If you don't like my views, that is your prerogative, but I shall speak my mind nevertheless. You talk about the fox and the grapes, as though I'm just mindlessly complaining (even though I was just making a point by framing his 'complaint' in his own words), which I am not. So what even is your point? Why exactly am I not supposed to say what I have said? Your use of Nathan's parable is creative, seems totally unrelated to this present question. Your last sentence only says what I had already said myself - that I have used the public domain pdfs rather than pay over a hundred dollars for a freely available set. I suppose you were really saying 'just read the pdfs and be quiet and keep your opinion to yourself and be grateful'.

Jim VanSchoonhoven

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/305456#Comment_305456

I love logos but of course since I had a stoke I will have to learn how to reuse it, but I pick up free public domain for theWord when it is priced too high in Logos, all I was suggesting was a twik to the community pricing program that would allow people with less money to at least pick up resources that had been on community pricing for a less costly price for a short period of time. I acually have over 3700 modules in theWord,but I would still like to have them in Logos because it does even more than theWord even though I can make collections and search them in theWord.

Matthew C Jones

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/305456#Comment_305456

Valid questions have been raised, and Logos has a right to hear feedback from customers without the nay brigade trying to shut it down or, perhaps, even putting false guilt on people. The fact that some people are willing to pay for something does not mean that they don't consider it excessive. I sometimes pay for things - for a variety of reasons - that I think are excessive in price.

My Logos Library has 8000 resources.
More than 1500 of my resources were offered FREE. Is that an excessive price to you?
Another 2000 were offered at $1 per book. Is that an excessive price to you?
Another 1600 were offered at less than $3 per book. Is that an excessive price to you?
Few of my Community Pricing bids ship at higher than $3 per volume. Is that an excessive price to you?
All the rest of my resources were purchased at less than 75% of retail and much closer to 50% of retail. Is that an excessive price to you?

I will not begrudge your complaining. I hope it makes you feel better. Please do not begrudge my saving 80~98% off the retail prices through diligent purchasing. My wife's Logos resources number greater than 2000 titles and averages less than $.20 per book. Is that an excessive price to you?

Matthew C Jones

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/305466#Comment_305466

all I was suggesting was a twik to the community pricing program that would allow people with less money to at least pick up resources that had been on community pricing for a less costly price for a short period of time.

And I think that is a marvelous idea.

Dean J

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/305469#Comment_305469

Valid questions have been raised, and Logos has a right to hear feedback from customers without the nay brigade trying to shut it down or, perhaps, even putting false guilt on people. The fact that some people are willing to pay for something does not mean that they don't consider it excessive. I sometimes pay for things - for a variety of reasons - that I think are excessive in price.

My Logos Library has 8000 resources.

More than 1500 of my resources were offered FREE.     Is that an excessive price to you?

Another 2000 were offered at $1 per book.     Is that an excessive price to you?

Another 1600 were offered at less than $3 per book.     Is that an excessive price to you?

Few of my Community Pricing bids ship at higher than $3 per volume.     Is that an excessive price to you?

All the rest of my resources were purchased at less than 75% of retail and much closer to 50% of retail.     Is that an excessive price to you?

I will not begrudge your complaining. I hope it makes you feel better. Please do not begrudge my saving 80~98% off the retail prices through diligent purchasing. My wife's Logos resources number greater than 2000 titles and averages less than $.20 per book. Is that an excessive price to you?

I didn't express my thoughts in order to feel better, though perhaps your display of 'moral indignation' at how evil I am was designed to produce some catharsis on your part. Saving 75% off of a retail price when one can get the same works for free in pdf seems like a steep purchasing of search capability to me, not a saving, but each to his own. You don't agree, fine, but no need to lash out and burst a blood vessel over it. You don't even get it - the fact you got so many books for $3 demonstrates that it really doesn't cost a lot for Logos to put PDs into publication.

George Somsel

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/305480#Comment_305480

I didn't express my thoughts in order to feel better, though perhaps your display of 'moral indignation' at how evil I am was designed to produce some catharsis on your part. Saving 75% off of a retail price when one can get the same works for free in pdf seems like a steep purchasing of search capability to me, not a saving, but each to his own. You don't agree, fine, but no need to lash out and burst a blood vessel over it. You don't even get it - the fact you got so many books for $3 demonstrates that it really doesn't cost a lot for Logos to put PDs into publication.

So now you wish to dictate Logos' business model? Go occupy Oakland or New York City.

Matthew C Jones

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/305480#Comment_305480

perhaps your display of 'moral indignation' at how evil I am was designed to produce some catharsis on your part.

Huh? [*-)] I must have missed that part of my posts. All I can find when re-reading them are facts (rate per book) and questions (Is that an excessive price to you?)

but each to his own. You don't agree, fine,

Works for me. [:)]

but no need to lash out and burst a blood vessel over it.

Umm, Huh? again. [8-)] I am not the least bit upset that you choose to equate Logos resources with PDF files. I kind of expect somebody to differ in opinion with me. Every coin has two sides. We should both expect to cross paths with the other side every now and then. We do not need to cross swords over it though. Maybe I should use a lot more giddy smileys when talking about my perspective.

[:P] [:P] [:P] [:P] [:P] [:P] [:P] [:P] [:P] [:P] [:P] [:P] [:P] [:P] [:P] [:P] [:P] [:P] [:P] [:P] [:P] [:P] [:P] [:P] [:P] [:P] [:P]

I'm not angry with you Dean. You make a good clarion call for freely available resources. Many of my friends and neighbors can not afford Bible study software at any cost. They are too busy working two jobs just to keep their homes and feed their children. I am happy we have PDFs, theWord, eSword and other free options. Now my friends just need a free computer to run them on.

btw: our original poster from this thread, Jim VanSchoonhoven, has been a champion of free Bible study software. (theWord in particular)

Mike Aubrey

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/305292#Comment_305292

As with earlier threads on this general subject, pricing of CP/public-domain resources on Logos is atrocious.

Yeah...$10 a volume is really rough. Considering how technical Meyer's commentaries are, that's still an amazing deal. But I can understand why you wouldn't want Logos to make a profit here. Why would we want them to stay in business? Or why would we want them to have the funds available to subsidized other worthwhile collections that would otherwise never see the light of day?

Rick

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/305469#Comment_305469

My Logos Library has 8000 resources.

More than 1500 of my resources were offered FREE.     Is that an excessive price to you?

Another 2000 were offered at $1 per book.     Is that an excessive price to you?

Another 1600 were offered at less than $3 per book.     Is that an excessive price to you?

Few of my Community Pricing bids ship at higher than $3 per volume.     Is that an excessive price to you?

All the rest of my resources were purchased at less than 75% of retail and much closer to 50% of retail.     Is that an excessive price to you?

Actually, yes, with the exception of the free Perseus stuff. In order to get the prices you quote you have to buy in volume. I'm very familiar with the sales and bundling packages that require an investment of $1000 or more to get the prices that you suggest. Okay, you got 1000 books for $1 each but you probably had to buy all 1000 or near that much at once in order to get that price. It is still not affordable for a lot of people. For me to accept your argument, I would have to see your $1 purchases as single volume purchases or very small package offerings.

Why are you so upset? It was just an idea that was proposed.

Dean J

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/305483#Comment_305483

perhaps your display of 'moral indignation' at how evil I am was designed to produce some catharsis on your part.

Huh? I must have missed that part of my posts. All I can find when re-reading them are facts (rate per book) and questions (Is that an excessive price to you?)

but each to his own. You don't agree, fine,
Works for me.
but no need to lash out and burst a blood vessel over it.

Umm, Huh? again. I am not the least bit upset that you choose to equate Logos resources with PDF files. I kind of expect somebody to differ in opinion with me. Every coin has two sides. We should both expect to cross paths with the other side every now and then. We do not need to cross swords over it though. Maybe I should use a lot more giddy smileys when talking about my perspective.

I'm not angry with you Dean. You make a good clarion call for freely available resources. Many of my friends and neighbors can not afford Bible study software at any cost. They are two busy working two jobs just to keep their homes and feed their children. I am happy we have PDFs, theWord, eSword and other free options. Now my friends just need a free computer to run them on.

btw: our original poster from this thread, Jim VanSchoonhoven, has been a champion of free Bible study software. (theWord in particular)

\

I guess that's the problem with posts is that they don't always come across as intended. Glad to hear we're not crossing swords. I wouldn't say I equate pdf and Logos - I have paid for Logos products that I have in pdf (recent example - the classic Greek NT commentary series because I value Westcott, Swete, Milligan, Lightfoot etc very highly). Nor do I think they should be free - Logos has to maintain server space etc. No, that 's not what I'm saying - It's that the price seems exce... uhum, well, let's not go there again.

I hadn't heard of the Word - looks good. I used E-Sword for years and got by with it, but glad I made the switch to Logos before I got heavily invested in a print library. It has revolutionized my study, and I would not disparage it.

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/305484#Comment_305484

Mike, let me see. It took quite a while to convince Logos customers that $30 for Meyer would be a good deal.

And you're saying $200+ is a pretty amazing deal. Okie dokie. Want to stand on the corner with your amazing deal?

Logos was on the corner at $30 for quite some time.

I think Michael's right here ... no one's likely to go for your deal. Too high.

Matthew C Jones

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/305485#Comment_305485

Why are you so upset? It was just an idea that was proposed.

WoW guys, If I had been upset, I probably would have used the [:@] emoticon. I know my succinct list of facts feels like I am jabbing with a sharp, pointy stick. But I actually revel joyfully in my lower rate per book purchases. Almost like the T-shirt that proclaims, "Jesus Loves You, but I'm his favorite."

It is still not affordable for a lot of people.

Here is where I empathize with everyone. Some of the purchases were indeed the BIG deals with a high price tag and a big discount. It costs a lot of money to buy Portfolio Edition $4290 on a 12 month payment plan. Buying the International Critical Commentary will more than wipe out most book allowances (for pastors blessed enough to have such a perk.) Same goes for the Zondervan Bundles and Anchor Yale Bible, and NICOT/NICNT. We really need an extended payment plan (18 months? or 24 months is better) Then when a sale price is offered it will not be an occasion for angst but a time for rejoicing.

But not all my purchases were these huge unaffordable deals. The Community Pricing program is hands-down the best way to buy the kind of resources we really want for the best price possible. I love books. But I find the only books I will pay a higher, "unreasonable" price for are the ones I want very badly. Those books are the ones I treasure in my library. James Ussher's Works are worth those big bucks to me. Same with Henry Bullinger, and Louis Berkhof.

Why are you so upset? I am still very confused what made me come across angry & upset. I need to learn how to avoid presenting myself that way. I'm sorry to have committed that grievance,

Rick

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/305494#Comment_305494

Super tramp, sorry for not clarifying my post. After I posted I saw that you were not upset as I had perceived. Thank you for your contributions. I have learned a lot from the forums and one of those things is that you should not assume some things such as I did. I ask your forgiveness for making what can now be perceived as rudeness in my post.

Matthew C Jones

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/305498#Comment_305498

Super tramp, sorry for not clarifying my post. After I posted I saw that you were not upset as I had perceived. Thank you for your contributions. I have learned a lot from the forums and one of those things is that you should not assume some things such as I did. I ask your forgiveness for making what can now be perceived as rudeness in my post.

Hey Rick, Thank you for that but I'm 99% sure the unintended "anger" conveyed was a fault of my own. (This is not the first time I have come across that way.) And while I do occasionally get perturbed, it is more times than not, bad communication skills on my part. So I beg for forgiveness and peace with any I have offended in the Logos forums.[U]

MJD

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/305470#Comment_305470

all I was suggesting was a twik to the community pricing program that would allow people with less money to at least pick up resources that had been on community pricing for a less costly price for a short period of time.

And I think that is a marvelous idea.

I think asking Logos to reduce their current price on a resource back to the "community pricing" model defeats Logos' intent of why they had the aforementioned price in the first place.

THIS SALE WAS DONE TO FUND THE PRODUCTION OF THE RESOURCE

I am going to write Walmart and ask them to sell me shares of stock at the same price they did for the original investors.[Y]

Matthew C Jones

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/305508#Comment_305508

all I was suggesting was a twik to the community pricing program that would allow people with less money to at least pick up resources that had been on community pricing for a less costly price for a short period of time.
And I think that is a marvelous idea.
I think asking Logos to reduce their current price on a resource back to the "community pricing" model defeats Logos' intent of why they had the aforementioned price in the first place. THIS SALE WAS DONE TO FUND THE PRODUCTION OF THE RESOURCE

Jim VanSchoonhoven: Price reduction for a "short period of time."
Webster's Dictionary definition of a "sale"; "available for purchase at a reduced price"
The Logos Marketing Department likes to have "Sales" as evidenced by their frequent use of that marketing technique.
Shipping a product does not prevent Logos from dropping the price at a later time. What would happen if, horror upon horrors, Logos marketed a $10,000 lifetime "Everything" license? Would it be wrong of them to offer such a great deal to new customers when many of the old time faithful have already invested $10K, $20K or even $30K? When I look at Matt 20:1-16 I conclude Logos can price their product however they want to.

General Motors hired me when I was 19 years of age. One perk was stock options but it was only offered to those 25 years of age or older. Right before my 25th birthday the stock benefit was removed from the compensation package. Quite unfortunate for me but I am still happy my colleagues got that sweet deal. If Logos sees fit to offer a limited window of opportunity for new customers to grab up some resources at Pre-Pub prices, it is fine with me.

I could have gotten angry that I already owned 800 of the 2010 titles in Christmas Master Collection but chose instead to rejoice that others could get them at $1 each and I could get the remaining 1200 @ $1.68 each.

nicky crane

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/305523#Comment_305523

CP prices are actually set by us, as we bid for the amount we are prepared to pay. That seems fair to me, tho I have objected when Logos has set the minimum you can bid at what seems to mean unreasonably high level. But I'm not obliged to bid, and I don't till (usually) Logos brings the minimum bid price down to something I'm prepared to bid.

When I discovered Chesterton was available free on the internet, and, I think, in Kindle format, Logos refunded the price I had paid and cancelled the resource for me, with no hassle. I consider that as more than fair - it's very generous. Not even a cancellation fee.

AndyTheGreek

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/305562#Comment_305562

IF the resource is EPUB/Kindle/DOC/RTF then the option to convert them to docx and create a PBB is a possibility. I've done that using a program called calibre which will convert free Kindle and EPUB docs to rich text format.

Often, the resulting Word document needs a fair bit of work - adding Headings etc - but generally I find the resulting PBB looks ok. (I think you need the current Logos beta to successfully get images that are in the Word file to appear in the PBB, but I might be wrong there).

I've had less success with converting PDF's to Word docs because most public domain PDF's are scanned images and I haven't found a PDF to Word converter that, using OCR, can really do a good job, especially if Greek or Hebrew fonts are involved.

I do find that having these PD resources in Logos rather than in PDF format is an advantage - especially the commentaries, which can be linked to the verses you are studying. I often tend to study cross referenced passages and it's great in Logos to change the current reference and have all my open commentaries jump straight to them. And the print is much more readable them some PDF's I have.

Whether that justifies the cost of non CP resources is a question for the buyer I guess... Logos would probably sell a load more of them if they kept the prices right down.

Andy

Eric Weiss

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/305341#Comment_305341

This is still very frustrating. I recently cancelled a prepub that has been in production for over four years. It would be great if Logos could provide a rough estimate of timeframes once enough bids are recieved to produce the books (months? years?). I tend to bid on books that add to sets I have but I'm very careful about other Community Pricing books since I don't know If they will be available in one month or if I'll be waiting four years or more (both occur with Community Pricing). Age wise I'm closer to retirement than to seminary and I'd like to know that I'll get the books soon enough to get good use out of them.

Why cancel a pre-pub you might want before you get the "ready to ship" notice? Plus, if you get it and had forgotten to cancel your pre-pub order, you can return it within 30 days and get your $$ back? ISTM that a person should order any and every pre-pub they think they want because it doesn't cost anything to change one's mind at or even after ship time.

As for unavailability of CP prices after the resources go legit - I wish AT&T would give me unlimited data on my iPhone, but I missed that opportunity by about a month, and it's now forever gone. Yet my wife, who hardly uses her iPhone data, has it. We could switch SIMs and phone numbers, but now her Entune in her new car will be potentially regularly suckling at her data plan, so she might now finally be using the GBs. [:D]

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/305592#Comment_305592

Last week I went thru and stripped out any pre-pub orders that I didn't absolutely 'need'. Whatever happened to the NRSV apocrypha interlinear anyway?

I understand the logic of 'no cost' on orders. But I also think there IS somewhat of an addiction to books. We're also stripping out unnecessary TV channels, phone minutes/GBs and on and on. Re-focus our costs.

Dean J

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/305578#Comment_305578

IF the resource is EPUB/Kindle/DOC/RTF then the option to convert them to docx and create a PBB is a possibility. I've done that using a program called calibre which will convert free Kindle and EPUB docs to rich text format.

Often, the resulting Word document needs a fair bit of work - adding Headings etc - but generally I find the resulting PBB looks ok. (I think you need the current Logos beta to successfully get images that are in the Word file to appear in the PBB, but I might be wrong there).

I've had less success with converting PDF's to Word docs because most public domain PDF's are scanned images and I haven't found a PDF to Word converter that, using OCR, can really do a good job, especially if Greek or Hebrew fonts are involved.

I do find that having these PD resources in Logos rather than in PDF format is an advantage - especially the commentaries, which can be linked to the verses you are studying. I often tend to study cross referenced passages and it's great in Logos to change the current reference and have all my open commentaries jump straight to them. And the print is much more readable them some PDF's I have.

Whether that justifies the cost of non CP resources is a question for the buyer I guess... Logos would probably sell a load more of them if they kept the prices right down.

Andy

Thanks for the heads up - I've downloaded calibre now and I'm going to be investing time in producing PBs for resources available in PD. I would love to have everything in Logos, but will sacrifice for the sake of cost.

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/305625#Comment_305625

Reading the various threads recently, including this one, I have tried to construct a list of what I would have learned about Logos software by reading the forums as a newbie. This is my provisional list:

financial terms such as interest and fee mean whatever I say they mean. Therefore the Logos community follows Alice and Wonderland.
the Logos community includes a unusually high percentage of astute business people who volunteer their time advising Logos. Therefore the Wall Street Journal and Forbes magazine are likely to appear soon in prepub. Check your Twitter account for more details.
in keeping with recent research that shows Americans to be more interested in earning more than their neighbors rather than more in absolute dollars, the Logos community is fixated on having more resources than their neighbor. Recognizing this, Logos is soon to announce a used market where you can purchase new leather bound resources by the gigabyte. These resources will not be accessible through Logos or Vyrso but will have metadata and will be included in your resource count.
Through data-mining of user data (limited to those individuals who have given permission for their data to be mined) Logos has discovered that Bibles represent a diminishing percentage of resources used. If the current trends continue, Logos may discontinue publication of Bibles.

Any additional observations that should be added?

[It's a joke, folks, to be taken in the same vein as the lamb-eating Hindu-Christian]

Matthew C Jones

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/305692#Comment_305692

These resources will not be accessible through Logos or Vyrso but will have metadata and will be included in your resource count.

hee hee. The resource count justifies the cost.

Logos is soon to announce a new leather bound

I'm still waiting on my first leather portfolio that was supposed to ship with Portfolio Edition.

Milford Charles Murray

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/305707#Comment_305707

Well-done, Martha! Indeed!

Peace to you; and permit me to say that I truly enjoy your great humour! *smile* Psalm 119:105

Dean J

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/305578#Comment_305578

IF the resource is EPUB/Kindle/DOC/RTF then the option to convert them to docx and create a PBB is a possibility. I've done that using a program called calibre which will convert free Kindle and EPUB docs to rich text format.

I guess the problem with epub - at least for the foreseeable future - is that doesn't recognize Greek and Hebrew - I just tried downloading Charles' commentary on Revelation in Epub and the Greek doesn't display correctly. So it seems that this is only a viable option for work that don't have substantial non-English fonts in them.

Ann Hudson

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/305416#Comment_305416

This is still very frustrating. I recently cancelled a prepub that has been in production for over four years.

It took almost forever for Barnes Notes to get published. Other Pre-Pubs have just fallen off the edge of the earth, never more to be heard from:

Samaritan Pentateuch

Oxford Latin Dictionary

Crum's Coptic Dictionary

As you can see from my current Community Pricing list, I'm still holding out hope for Crum's........

hmm..., I have made a suggestion to Logos when Rodkinson's Talmud went from CP to pre-pub in real quick time. that they transfer the following to CP:

http://www.logos.com/product/5262/dictionary-of-the-targumim-the-talmud-babli-and-yerushalmi-and-the-midrashic-literature

...to keep the theme going on Jewish Classics. They did not respond, and I think, 'missed the boat'. Will this be another to fall off the edge of the earth?

I too use the classic pdf's rather than the Logos editions - particularly when the products are pricey. This does not mean I degrade the value of classic works, they are valuable - ever more so when you consider some of the 'cotton candy' theology that is around today and some of the difficult passages of Scripture that require a 'Talmudic' mind-set to solve the issues!!

Bob Pritchett

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/305292#Comment_305292

As with earlier threads on this general subject, pricing of CP/public-domain resources on Logos is atrocious. I just can't see a lesser word being appropriate. $210 for Meyer AFTER costs are covered. And pre-pub?

I think "atrocious" isn't very fair: the fact that we even have Pre-Pub and Community Pricing shows that we're working hard on transparent, and lower, pricing. (How many other companies offer multiple pricing models, let users drive prices down, and show so much transparency?)

The royalty for copyrighted content isn't the expensive part of producing a resource. It's the keying and tagging and processing, and that can be more for PD books, not less -- there are no publisher typesetting files.

Yes, PD books are available cheaper in facsimile. (We even offer them free ourselves, at http://books.logos.com!) But that's because scanning a page is cheap. Processing it isn't.

And yes, the price goes up after we cover our costs. However, on CP titles, we give almost all of the profit to the users who participate -- you'll note we sell the product at the lowest point that crosses the Production Cost line. Revenue maximization (and the way nearly every product on earth is priced) involves trying to price it at the point that the curve peaks. And we use the incentive of a much-higher post CP price to create the urgency that gets people to participate. The PD books have been sitting around for an average of 90+ years without being digitized. There isn't a real urgency; our pricing program creates the urgency needed to get people to come together and fund the project. If we kept the CP price afterwards, you wouldn't have to participate in CP -- you could just plan to buy it if you decide you want it later at that price. Except that it wouldn't exist, because everyone would take the attitude, and it wouldn't have been funded.

You'll find more about our pricing at this old post:

http://community.logos.com/forums/p/11152/88865.aspx#88865

Matthew C Jones

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/306221#Comment_306221

If we kept the CP price afterwards, you wouldn't have to participate in CP -- you could just plan to buy it if you decide you want it later at that price. Except that it wouldn't exist, because everyone would take the attitude, and it wouldn't have been funded.

In that case, don't undermine the Community Pricing program with changes. It seems to work well enough to bring a lot of new resources into publication. I think a lot of the clamor is remorse for not having been able or willing to grab the good stuff at the good prices. I am all for the creative sales ideas we keep seeing. I don't bite at everything but there is usually enough good ones to empty my wallet of my "mad money."

I am very content with CP resources shipping for $2~3 per volume. I think that is very reasonable, even for public domain works.

Thank you for posting. And thank you bunches for last year's 2010 Christmas deals. See if you can top it. I dare ya'. [:O]

fwiw: There have been about three times I have seen sale prices on resources match what I paid in Community Pricing. I did feel just a little bit jealous that others were offered the same great deal without any commitment. I did get over it. [:^)]

nicky crane

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/306229#Comment_306229

Bob, can you explain the reasons for putting a minimum bid of $50 on the classic commentaries on Matthew, when other classic commentary sets have gone for $40?

It's not that I would object to paying $50, if that's the price the community chooses. It's the lack of choice that I object to.

Having said that, I do appreciate CP!

AndyTheGreek

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/305761#Comment_305761

I guess the problem with epub - at least for the foreseeable future - is that doesn't recognize Greek and Hebrew - I just tried downloading Charles' commentary on Revelation in Epub and the Greek doesn't display correctly. So it seems that this is only a viable option for work that don't have substantial non-English fonts in them.

I don't think there is a reason why EPUB cannot handle them, as far as I am aware. But the person building the EPUB needs to know how to do it... Usually, EPUB's are built using HTML files, which are them compiled into EPUBs - the HTML files must be saved UTF-8 format, complete with the UTF-8 bytecode header and not all HTML editors will support that.

When I do the reverse - export a LOGOS book to put on my Kindle, I have to manually change the resulting HTML file's character set to UTF-8 before compiling to Kindle, which is a relatively similar format to EPUB...

There's an example here: http://kemovitra.blogspot.com/2010/03/embedding-russiancyrillicunicode-fonts.html for creating an EPUB containing Russian characters...

Andy

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/306221#Comment_306221

I'll stick with 'atrocious'. In one breath, all costs are covered in the CP calculation (indeed no profit at the CP price). So 'keying costs' are not a consideration after the resource leaves CP. It's ALL profit thereafter. So 'unfair' comment. Don't think so, since it's a consumer talking. Ditto when I see what a car company might price a car with old technology, low gas mileage, etc. Pitty the saleman that is tasked to sell it. Maybe a collector?

And that was the eventual conclusion. Selling it wasn't the goal. Fluffing up the 'line' was.

Now that said, and to be 'fair', lately I've noticed quite a number of Logos resources that are well under Amazon, fully indexed and ready to go. One I'm quite interested in is so far under 'retail' that I'm wondering whether Logos can hold on to it for long.

Better buy now!!

Ralph Mauch

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/306221#Comment_306221

And we use the incentive of a much-higher post CP price to create the urgency that gets people to participate.

I'm glad that you have this program, it tells you the books that are going to sell by the amount of interest you get, and it gives the User Community that extra incentive to participate to get the lowest cost available. As one who doesn't read the forums on a daily basis, I'm thrilled to see the posts about a CP project that's almost ready to go live, it allows me to get in on it on the low cost for that resource.

DON'T CHANGE ANYTHING!

MJD

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/306221#Comment_306221

I think "atrocious" isn't very fair: the fact that we even have Pre-Pub and Community Pricing shows that we're working hard on transparent, and lower, pricing. (How many other companies offer multiple pricing models, let users drive prices down, and show so much transparency?)

Bob,

I enjoy participating and watching the graph move up. I think your Community Pricing is an amazing deal, and a wonderful value for your users.[Y]

As a user I think it is great that you (Logos) make a profit. I want Logos to be hugely successful, so they can be around for many many years.

The Community Pricing is a great marketing tool, because it keeps me coming back to your site to see what is going on.[I]

I would like to thank you for administering the program the way you do. I would not change a thing, my hats off to you...