Krauth - Baptism

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Ken McGuire | Forum Activity | Posted: Fri, Dec 9 2011 11:08 AM

In my last offering I mentioned how Harms was calling for Lutherans to recover their distinctive teachings, but that he never really said what they were.  Recognizing the problem, I looked for a text in English that would:

1)  Dig deeper into explaining Lutheran teaching on something that would be understandable today

2)  Have an English version that is out of copyright

3)  Ideally, be from a major figure.

Charles Porterfield Krauth is one of the giants of the 19th Century confessional movement - almost certainly the most important to the English speaking church. For a while I have dreamed of a Logos version of his magnum opus, Conservative Reformation, but it is a bit big for what I understand of the PB system.

While looking at available etexts of Krauth I noticed two booklets on Baptism.  This is the earlier one.  The later one - a review essay of Hodge's Systematic Theology is on my list of possible future texts.

Source of this is from Google Books.  I have quickly tried to proof the ORC, and have also put in some links to the Book of Concord.  I have yet to figure out how to link properly to the Catechisms, so there are no links for those.  In addition, I could not find the exact source for his quotes from the Apology to the Augsburg Confession.  He seems be to referencing a page number for a version I don't have followed by paragraph.  There are textual issues between various Latin texts and the German for much of the Apology and I didn't bother to spend the extensive time figuring out which time exactly Melanchthon returning to "Only Faith Justifies" that Krauth was quoting.

You may want to skim the first portion.  Evidently there were Baptists who were trying to describe Luther as an immersionist, and so Krauth spends quite a bit of time dealing with some disputed texts of Luther.  For me it got more interesting when exegeting John 3, even if some of his background is dated, and then by far the best part was on the relation between Baptism and Original Sin in Lutheranism.

SDG

Ken McGuire

The Gospel is not ... a "new law," on the contrary, ... a "new life." - William Julius Mann

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Milford Charles Murray | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 15 2011 6:55 PM

Kenneth McGuire:
Charles Porterfield Krauth is one of the giants of the 19th Century confessional movement - almost certainly the most important to the English speaking church. For a while I have dreamed of a Logos version of his magnum opus, Conservative Reformation, but it is a bit big for what I understand of the PB system.

Thanks, Ken!                Peace!                 and Joy in the Lord!                     *smile*

              I am truly grateful for your postings.  Also, I am tremendously behind in my readings.          I look forward to sharing this with my Pastor and tackling it early in the new year!                  Well-Done!                                    

Psalm 115:1

Philippians 4:  4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........

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Dean F | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 17 2011 12:11 PM

This is a very useful resource, thank you.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 17 2011 12:42 PM

Kenneth McGuire:
19th Century confessional movement

This sent me to the web - my knowledge of church history has a gap here. On Wikipedia I found the following statement which for a number of reasons surprised me:

"Quia subscription (the Book of Concord is adhered to because it is faithful to the Scriptures) implies that the subscriber believes that there is no contradiction between the Book of Concord and the Scriptures. Quatenus subscription (the Book of Concord is adhered to insofar as it is faithful to the Scriptures) implies that the subscriber leaves room for the possibility that there might be a contradiction of the Scriptures in the Book of Concord in which case the subscriber would hold to the Scriptures against the Book of Concord."

Is this an accurate statement and, if so, any suggestions on where to go to learn the origin of the Quia position?

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Ken McGuire | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 17 2011 9:41 PM

MJ. Smith:

Kenneth McGuire:
19th Century confessional movement

This sent me to the web - my knowledge of church history has a gap here. On Wikipedia I found the following statement which for a number of reasons surprised me:

"Quia subscription (the Book of Concord is adhered to because it is faithful to the Scriptures) implies that the subscriber believes that there is no contradiction between the Book of Concord and the Scriptures. Quatenus subscription (the Book of Concord is adhered to insofar as it is faithful to the Scriptures) implies that the subscriber leaves room for the possibility that there might be a contradiction of the Scriptures in the Book of Concord in which case the subscriber would hold to the Scriptures against the Book of Concord."

Is this an accurate statement and, if so, any suggestions on where to go to learn the origin of the Quia position?

I cannot speak officially for anyone but myself.  In addition, I have managed to accidently exit out of this response multiple times before, so maybe God is telling me I shouldn't say anything... <G>

It is an accurate statement.  If I remember from that wikipedia article, it makes some claims about what it means to be a confessional lutheran which are debatable, I am not aware of any Lutheran theologian who would out and out defend subscribing to the book of concord insofar is it is scriptural.  That is simply a pious sounding, but meaningless statement.  If I say I subscribe to the Koran insofar as it agrees with scripture, I say nothing about how much or little it actually agrees with scripture.  That is a very different statement than to say that I believe, teach and confess that the Nicene Creed is a scriptural confession of who God is.

A classic statement is: http://www.ctsfw.net/media/pdfs/walthersubscribe.pdf It was recommended reading at the ELCA school I attended.  Notice that we say we subscribe to the doctrinal content of our confessions.  So, Luther's Baptismal booklet baptismal rite is an example of a rite that does NOT need to be the same everywhere (Augsburg Confession 7).  Our lexicons need not say that "God" and "Good" have the same derivation, even if Luther claims it in the Large Catechism.  Our Physicists need not say that magnets are influenced by various juices like the Formula of Concord says.

For better or worse, one other source from our teaching on this is you Roman Catholics.  After the Religious Peace of Augsburg (1555 if I recall correctly) it was legal to teach ONLY according to the Roman way or the Augsburg Confession.  Calvinists were NOT included until the Peace of Westphalia.  Jesuits would raise a fuss whenever it looked like someone was breaking this law.Devil

Other resources would include Round 1 of the American Lutheran Roman Catholic Dialogue - on the status of the Nicene Creed in the Church.  Section 1 of the Hutter I posted yesterday has some basic discussion, as well as some of the other 19th Century American things I posted here in September, like Mann's two works or Hoffman's Broken Platform.

The Gospel is not ... a "new law," on the contrary, ... a "new life." - William Julius Mann

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 17 2011 10:50 PM

Thanks, Kenneth.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Milford Charles Murray | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 23 2011 2:35 PM

Peace, Kenneth!           And a Blessed Christmas to you and your loved ones.

          Thank you again for your input in this thread.  Well-done!

2 Corinthians 9:15

Philippians 4:  4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........

Posts 1503

I have started working on Krauth's Magnum Opus (his Conservative Reformation) and found out that he like to site the Lutheran Confessions from the page number of the Mueller edition of them in Latin and German. Don't hold your breath for me to finish it - it might take a while.  But I remembered not having everything sited in this book.  I have added the missing links I spoke of on release.  In addition I fixed a very stupid error in a link that was there already and added a link to Winer's Grammer, now that it exists in Logos. (admittedly Krauth was siting an earlier edition...)

SDG,

Ken McGuire

The Gospel is not ... a "new law," on the contrary, ... a "new life." - William Julius Mann

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tom | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 31 2012 6:50 AM

Kenneth McGuire:
Conservative Reformation, but it is a bit big for what I understand of the PB system.
I don't think it is too big for PB.  It is too big for me to edit.

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Ken McGuire | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 31 2012 8:43 AM

tom collinge:

Kenneth McGuire:
Conservative Reformation, but it is a bit big for what I understand of the PB system.
I don't think it is too big for PB.  It is too big for me to edit.

I eventually took it on and released it a week ago.  Please see http://community.logos.com/forums/t/47450.aspx for details.

SDG

Ken McGuire

The Gospel is not ... a "new law," on the contrary, ... a "new life." - William Julius Mann

Posts 3456
BillS | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 31 2012 1:47 PM

Kenneth McGuire:
While looking at available etexts of Krauth I noticed two booklets on Baptism. 

I didn't see a picture, so I adapted the one you'd used earlier on Krauth's Reformation...

I've attached it for anyone else who'd like one....

The Grace & Peace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you!
Bill

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DavidS | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 31 2012 3:10 PM

Thanks for your work!!!

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Milford Charles Murray | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 31 2012 4:21 PM

Ud Laugh 2:

Thanks for your work!!!

Peace to all!                     .....        and                                    Always Joy in the Lord!              *smile*

           Yes, indeed!   Thanks Ken and Bill.  Much appreciated!                            Ken, I do very often remember you to the Lord!           

                                                             Psalm 118:19-26

Philippians 4:  4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........

Posts 1503

Here is the actual matching cover...

The Gospel is not ... a "new law," on the contrary, ... a "new life." - William Julius Mann

Posts 3
Tom Cotton | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 30 2015 5:13 PM

Ken, I'm glad I found this one! I was in the beginnings of correcting this scan! Thanks again for your hard work!

Tom

P.S, I am currently working on these guys as well;

  • Epitome Credendorum – Rev. Nicolaus Hunnius
  • Lectures on the Augsburg Confession.
  • Distinctive Doctrines of Different Christian Confessions – Dr. Karl Grual

 

Posts 1503
Ken McGuire | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 1 2015 6:19 AM

Glad to see that some of my PB's are still being found and useful. You may want to look at some of the other PB's I have put up here in the files section, and I do hope that you share the three you mention above. I had considered doing the first two you mention, but never got around to doing the extensive work they would take.

SDG

Ken McGuire

The Gospel is not ... a "new law," on the contrary, ... a "new life." - William Julius Mann

Posts 3
Tom Cotton | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 1 2015 6:35 PM

Hi Ken, 

I have posted 'the error of modern missouri' and 'Conversion and Election by Franz' on my blog resource section as well as linked to 'baptism by Krauth', and written your name as the source.

http://anaussiebrekkie.com/articles/ 

Its mostly a links page or lutheran articles, with some books online. I started putting this together a couple of years ago because when I was first learning about Lutheranism I found it really difficult to find any in-depth public resources.

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