Logos Focus

Pastor Michael Huffman
Pastor Michael Huffman Member Posts: 634 ✭✭
edited November 20 in English Forum

Being one that believes in the Doctrines of Grace (or so called Calvinism), it appears to me that Logos makes a great aim in a lot of their books that they offered to be written by Calvinist, which is good for me.

Pastor Michael Huffman, Th.A Th.B Th.M

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Comments

  • Matthew C Jones
    Matthew C Jones Member Posts: 10,295

    Michael,

    I, too, am very happy to have the Calvinistic writers available in Logos.  I am especially excited to see many Puritan Fathers collections in Pre-Pub. I would also like to point out these other Logos titles:

    Foundations of Pentecostal Theology
    Wesleyan–Arminian Collection  (Methodist)
    Church of God Digital Library
    Collegeville Catholic Reference Library: Full Edition, Version 3
    Messianic Jewish Publishers Collection 
    The  Works of H. A. Ironside   (Independent Fundamentalist Baptist)
    Writings From the Ancient World  (Myths)

    and the whole series of these publisher's lines 

    Fortress Press (Lutheran) too many titles to list!
    College Press (Christian Church / Church of Christ)
    Broadman & Holman (Southern Baptist) too many to list.

    Logos is serving many very well. And I think it is only going to get better.    [<:o)]  !

    Logos 7 Collectors Edition

  • Pastor Michael Huffman
    Pastor Michael Huffman Member Posts: 634 ✭✭

    I would like to see how may calvinist users there are versus non-calvinist users.

    Pastor Michael Huffman, Th.A Th.B Th.M

  • Calvin Habig
    Calvin Habig Member Posts: 439 ✭✭

    You forgot those of us in the third category: Calminians.  Calvinism takes one aspect of biblical truth: God's sovereigny and pushes it to what I believe is an unbiblical extreme.  Arminianism takes one aspect of biblical truth: human free willl and responsibliity and also pushes it to what I believe is an unbiblical extreme.  There are elements of truth in both, but neither totally reflect the entire picture of Biblical truth. Therefore I describe myself as a Calminian.

  • Robert Pavich
    Robert Pavich Member Posts: 5,685 ✭✭✭

    calvinhabig,

    I've heard people say they are Calminian but it just doesn't hold water. I believe that saying that Calvinist push the Sovereignty of God to an extreme is usually a straw-man representation of their true position.

    I'm interested in your understanding of the "Calvinist position" in a nutshell.  Can you do that?

    In my limited experience what usually comes out is an inconsistent Arminian position.

     

    (Possibly you'd like to do it through PMs so as to not clog up this thread?)

    Robert Pavich

    For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__

  • Pastor Michael Huffman
    Pastor Michael Huffman Member Posts: 634 ✭✭

    Robert,

    Amen!!!! Either God is sovereign or He is not. If you push this limited view of God's sovereignty (which is a straw man), where does it stop and man's "free will" break through. It is completely impossible for dead creatures to excercise free will toward anything contrary to their nature. They are free to move in the relams of there nature, but Scripture is clear that dead creature cannot or as the Greek has it "does not have the power" to do anything contrary to that. God must do the work of regenerating, we cannot. I do not see that as an unbiblical extreme, I see that as totally biblical.

     

    Pastor Michael Huffman, Th.A Th.B Th.M

  • Matthew C Jones
    Matthew C Jones Member Posts: 10,295

    You forgot those of us in the third category: Calminians

    You mean to tell me there is now a name for us? [:D]   Glad to know there is a box I can be sorted into now.!

    Logos 7 Collectors Edition

  • Matthew C Jones
    Matthew C Jones Member Posts: 10,295

    I've heard people say they are Calminian but it just doesn't hold water. I believe that saying that Calvinist push the Sovereignty of God to an extreme is usually a straw-man representation of their true position.

    I'm interested in your understanding of the "Calvinist position" in a nutshell.  Can you do that?

    When I first started studying Calvin I had a hard time understanding why the Calvinists themselves could not agree on what the 5th point is. (Is it "Preservation" of the saints or  "Perseverance" of the saints?) There are self-described  "5 pointers", "4 pointers", "3 pointers".....never heard anyone go quite as low as two.     I am sure that among Calvinists, like among Baptists or Charismatics or Church of Christ flavors, the "hyper"-adherents view all lesser adherents as non-adherents.  I have not yet met a believer (Calvinist, Armenian, or "Calminian") who really thought they came to God without God making the first move. I have met a lot of preachers who mistakenly thought their silky smooth words from a pulpit could win the most hardened heart. THAT is who you need to be contending with.

    Regarding the 5th point:  - Literally speaking ,God Preserves the saints OR saints Persevere. No true "hyper"-Calivinist could ever believe in the latter since it gives credit to the saints instead of glory to the Sovereign God.

    Logos 7 Collectors Edition

  • Ted Hans
    Ted Hans MVP Posts: 3,171

    Hi Matthew,

    I am a calvinist.

    Could i ask you a question on another topic AV only? A yes or No answer will do, so that i am not seen to be hijacking this thread ,if you do not mind.

    Ted

    Dell, studio XPS 7100, Ram 8GB, 64 - bit Operating System, AMD Phenom(mt) IIX6 1055T Processor 2.80 GHZ

  • Christian B.
    Christian B. Member Posts: 4 ✭✭

    Since Logos claims to be a publisher that publishes Christian literature only - giving one Christian denomination precedence over others is not a good thing. My impression is also that there are more Calvinist works to be found here than say Lutheran, Roman Catholic or Orthodox. It might have to do with Logos being an american company and that Calvin more than any other theologian enjoys the greatest following "over there". It might also have to do with the fact that it is Calvin-500 and that third-party publishers who contacts Logos are in fact Calvinists (and Lutheran, Roman Catholic, Orthodox, etc. are just being difficult). Who knows for sure..

  • Pastor Michael Huffman
    Pastor Michael Huffman Member Posts: 634 ✭✭

    Matthew-

    I have never met a calvinist who did not hold to the Perseverance of the Saints. That would be a complete and utter contradiciton. Especaially given the text in John 6 that speaks about the ones that the Father has given to the Son that He will lose none of them. Also, what has been called hyper-calvinism is probably better called sub-calvinism or anti-calvinsim, because it is not Biblical at all.

     

    Pastor Michael Huffman, Th.A Th.B Th.M

  • Matthew C Jones
    Matthew C Jones Member Posts: 10,295

    I would like to see how may calvinist users there are versus non-calvinist users.


    That would be interesting but I don't know what purpose it would serve. I'm sure Logos has some idea of the demographics but I doubt that is what is driving the publication decisions or priorities. I did not mean to draw a line in the sand with my post.
    I truly am grateful for the writings of Calvin, Spurgeon, and MacArthur.
    I am also grateful for the historical works of Philip Schaff,
    the evangelistic training materials by Ray Comfort & Larry Moyer,
    the clear logic of Aquinas,
    the dialogue between Luther and Erasmus,
    the practical holy lifestyles of the Methodists & Nazarenes,
    the rich insights of the Messianic Jews....

    Logos is serving many Christians very well.

    Logos 7 Collectors Edition

  • Matthew C Jones
    Matthew C Jones Member Posts: 10,295

    Hi Matthew,

    I am a calvinist.

    Could i ask you a question on another topic AV only? A yes or No answer will do, so that i am not seen to be hijacking this thread ,if you do not mind.

    Ted


    Yes. But I'm not willing to draw anyone's blood over which version they should read. 

    Logos 7 Collectors Edition

  • Ted Hans
    Ted Hans MVP Posts: 3,171

    Yes. But I'm not willing to draw anyone's blood over which version they should read

    Thanks, i appreciate this. AV only - would they have an issue with the NKJV? A "Yes" or "NO" answer will do & then i am done. Or you could recommend a book for me to look up.

    Every Blessings,

    Ted.

     

     

    Dell, studio XPS 7100, Ram 8GB, 64 - bit Operating System, AMD Phenom(mt) IIX6 1055T Processor 2.80 GHZ

  • Jack Caviness
    Jack Caviness MVP Posts: 13,491

    I would like to see how may calvinist users there are versus non-calvinist users.

    What is your purpose in asking this question? This topic has promited heated discussions in the past on the newsgroups, and starting the debate again can serve no good purpose. I note that you made a rather strong statement 46 minutes after posting this. If you were only seek to promote a flame war, you have misused this forum. On another thread, I defended off-topic discussions, but trolling for flame wars is pushing the limit a bit far.

    Personally, I enjoy, and profit from, writers of all theological persuasions.

    Jack

  • Matthew C Jones
    Matthew C Jones Member Posts: 10,295

    Since Logos claims to be a publisher that publishes Christian literature only - giving one Christian denomination precedence over others is not a good thing. My impression is also that there are more Calvinist works to be found here than say Lutheran, Roman Catholic or Orthodox. It might have to do with Logos being an american company and that Calvin more than any other theologian enjoys the greatest following "over there". It might also have to do with the fact that it is Calvin-500 and that third-party publishers who contacts Logos are in fact Calvinists (and Lutheran, Roman Catholic, Orthodox, etc. are just being difficult). Who knows for sure..


    There are probably a whole lot of other factors we are not privy to that effect what gets published and what doesn't. Some would definitely involve copyright issues. The actual money-spending customer base will be of primary consideration. (I ate at a Chinese buffet yesterday that had pizza, spaghetti, tacos & enchiladas. Considering demographics in Oklahoma, that makes sense.) I think the Lutheran perspective is very well represented already. The Catholic writings just hit the Pre-pub page with a fury. I am aware of MANY other denominational views either in Pre-pub or already available. I do have to admire the reformed theology clan for their gusto in pushing availability of their works. It is not just Logos that carries them. Wordsearch & Biblesoft have been outlets for the same titles. One area I wish Logos would go is African Christianity. Considering BobP also runs the division in South Africa I would hope to see the African Commentaries in Logos some day.

    Logos 7 Collectors Edition

  • Mark
    Mark Member Posts: 2,641 ✭✭✭

    I would like to see how may calvinist users there are versus non-calvinist users.

    What is your purpose in asking this question? This topic has promited heated discussions in the past on the newsgroups, and starting the debate again can serve no good purpose. I note that you made a rather strong statement 46 minutes after posting this. If you were only seek to promote a flame war, you have misused this forum. On another thread, I defended off-topic discussions, but trolling for flame wars is pushing the limit a bit far.

    Personally, I enjoy, and profit from, writers of all theological persuasions.

    Jack

     

    Jack

    I completely agree with your post.  There is NO purpose for this type of question at all.

     

  • Ted Hans
    Ted Hans MVP Posts: 3,171

    Yes. But I'm not willing to draw anyone's blood over which version they should read

    Thanks, i appreciate this. AV only - would they have an issue with the NKJV? A "Yes" or "NO" answer will do & then i am done. Or you could recommend a book for me to look up.

    Every Blessings,

    Ted.

     

     


    Dell, studio XPS 7100, Ram 8GB, 64 - bit Operating System, AMD Phenom(mt) IIX6 1055T Processor 2.80 GHZ

  • Pastor Michael Huffman
    Pastor Michael Huffman Member Posts: 634 ✭✭

    What is your purpose in asking this question? This topic has promited heated discussions in the past on the newsgroups, and starting the debate again can serve no good purpose. I note that you made a rather strong statement 46 minutes after posting this. If you were only seek to promote a flame war, you have misused this forum. On another thread, I defended off-topic discussions, but trolling for flame wars is pushing the limit a bit far.

    Jack,

    I appreciate your comments. This was not asked to flame a war. I know here I stand and do not need to "flame a war". It seems to me that Logos is geared more with reformed works than with works, say of those of Charles Finney. Who, I may add, has been on pre-pub now for a long time and no one  seems to be interested. I wish they would go ahead and take it off....but anyway. Not making an accusation, but I have found that it is usually the semi-pelagian who is arguing about making a war and not wanting to discuss this issue. When, no matter, what side you take, is in the Scripture and must be discussed. Unfortunately, usually what people see is a mean spirited discussion based on emotion and not a spiritual discussion based on the revelation of Scripture. This is a discussion forum, that I understand to be with no limitations as the content. It started as an honest question to see what was the consesus of users, more reformed or more non-reformed. You are welcome to participate or not.

    Pastor Michael Huffman, Th.A Th.B Th.M

  • Pastor Michael Huffman
    Pastor Michael Huffman Member Posts: 634 ✭✭

    Jack

    I completely agree with your post.  There is NO purpose for this type of question at all.

     

    Mark,

    It is a shame that Biblical truth sparks these attitudes. This was meant as a survey question, nothing more. As I told Jack, I know where I stand and do not need to "flame a war".

    Pastor Michael Huffman, Th.A Th.B Th.M

  • Jack Caviness
    Jack Caviness MVP Posts: 13,491

    Jack,

    I appreciate your comments. This was not asked to flame a war. I know here I stand and do not need to "flame a war". It seems to me that Logos is geared more with reformed works than with works, say of those of Charles Finney. Who, I may add, has been on pre-pub now for a long time and no one  seems to be interested. I wish they would go ahead and take it off....but anyway. Not making an accusation, but I have found that it is usually the semi-pelagian who is arguing about making a war and not wanting to discuss this issue. When, no matter, what side you take, is in the Scripture and must be discussed. Unfortunately, usually what people see is a mean spirited discussion based on emotion and not a spiritual discussion based on the revelation of Scripture. This is a discussion forum, that I understand to be with no limitations as the content. It started as an honest question to see what was the consesus of users, more reformed or more non-reformed. You are welcome to participate or not.

    First, you do not know my position in regard to Calvinism, so you have no real reason to insult me, which you obviously did with your "semi-pelegian" comment. If this was an honest question, you did not need to follow it up by accusing anyone who disagreed with you of being a heretic. Your gloating that Finney's works seem stuck in pre-pub is rather disappointing.

    Second, this is a discussion forum for Logos Bible Software, not an open forum for theological debate. Some off-topic posts have been tolerated, but you misunderstand its purpose when you state that there is to be no limitationas to content.

    Jack 

  • Matthew C Jones
    Matthew C Jones Member Posts: 10,295

    Jack

    I completely agree with your post.  There is NO purpose for this type of question at all.

     Mark,

    It is a shame that Biblical truth sparks these attitudes. This was meant as a survey question, nothing more. As I told Jack, I know where I stand and do not need to "flame a war".


    Survey results:

    Calvinists "persevering" : 3
    Michael Huffman
    Robert Pavich
    Ted Hans


    Undefined ?????? : 2
    Jack Caviness
    Mark Swaim

    Calminians: 2
    Calvin Habig
    Matthew Jones

    Happy now?

    If you keep talking you may have to label your fellow Calvinists as Arminians too.  (Remember "hyper"-adherents view all lesser adherents as non-adherents.) If you believe You persevere   rather than God Preserves   you,  it appears you are working to keep your salvation. 

     

     

    Logos 7 Collectors Edition

  • Matthew C Jones
    Matthew C Jones Member Posts: 10,295

    Yes. But I'm not willing to draw anyone's blood over which version they should read

    Thanks, i appreciate this. AV only - would they have an issue with the NKJV? A "Yes" or "NO" answer will do & then i am done. Or you could recommend a book for me to look up.

    Every Blessings,

    Ted.

     

    Yes, imho, they do.


    I have found that when someone identifies themselves as an AV ("KJV") only person, they will have issues with the NKJV as well as any other version. The fundamental difference is not in which version is the best translation but appears to be a faith-based conviction that the 1611 Authorized Version is "God's Word for the English-speaking peoples."   I find it interesting that leaders such as Jerry Falwell, Charles Stanley, Billy Graham have been called everything from errant brothers to heretics by the KJV-only tribe.

    I have heard from many sides of this debate. Most want to make personal attacks on each other or ridicule by misrepresenting their opponent's statements. There are colorful personalities on both sides that offer a lot of fuel to the fire. I do find a lot of valid points get raised in spite of the loose canons firing indiscriminately at everything that moves. There does appear to be a change in the language of modern translations that question key Bible doctrines. There does appear to be a flippant attitude that promotes a cafeteria plan of Christian doctrine -- a "whatever floats your boat" mentality.

    Disclaimer: Many of my KJV-only friends think I am a poor, misguided soul for my lack of dogma in this arena.. I have a much bigger argument with the cheapening of grace and disrespect of God than I do with what version we read. 

    Logos 7 Collectors Edition

  • Bohuslav Wojnar
    Bohuslav Wojnar Member Posts: 3,466 ✭✭✭

    Survey results:

    Calvinists "persevering" : 3
    Michael Huffman
    Robert Pavich
    Ted Hans


    Undefined ?????? : 2
    Jack Caviness
    Mark Swaim

    Calminians: 2
    Calvin Habig
    Matthew Jones

    Happy now?

    You can add me to the "Undefined" or "Calminians" list, although I really don't like the name... [:(]

    Bohuslav

  • Pastor Michael Huffman
    Pastor Michael Huffman Member Posts: 634 ✭✭

    First, you do not know my position in regard to Calvinism, so you have no real reason to insult me, which you obviously did with your "semi-pelegian" comment. If this was an honest question, you did not need to follow it up by accusing anyone who disagreed with you of being a heretic. Your gloating that Finney's works seem stuck in pre-pub is rather disappointing.

     

    Jack,

    I am sincerely sorry that you took my comment as an insult. If you remember what I said was that it is usually semi-pelagians who do not want to engage in a conversation about this. I did not say you were a semi-pelagian. Your right, I do not know your position, but I would take from your comments that you are NOT a calvinist, because usually calvinist say so. Given the fact that you have not, it is probably a safe bet that you are not a calvinist. If so, I apologize. Just so you understand my position, I would like to see Finney off of pre-pub, not because he was not a calvinist, but because he had major doctrinal problems, including, but not limited to, the denial of original sin.

    Jack, I have seen many subjects discussed here that have had nothing to do with Logos Bible Software. For example, there was one today on which translation to use. So I am not the only one that would like to use this forum as a platform to, in a fashion becoming people of God, discuss these things. Unlike our friend Mark, who just left  anything but a civil comment. But I have been misrepresented before and I will be misrepresented again. Sorry for any confusion in my comments. God Bless.

     

    Michael

    Pastor Michael Huffman, Th.A Th.B Th.M

  • Pastor Michael Huffman
    Pastor Michael Huffman Member Posts: 634 ✭✭

    Happy now?

     

     

    We are suppose to be christian gentlemen. We can go without the ungracious comments. If you would like to discuss your views on another thread I would be most happy. I am sorry that you misinterpret my intentions.

    Pastor Michael Huffman, Th.A Th.B Th.M

  • Pastor Michael Huffman
    Pastor Michael Huffman Member Posts: 634 ✭✭

    If you believe You persevere   rather than God Preserves   you,  it appears you are working to keep your salvation. 

     

    I believe I persevere because God preserves me. It all starts and ends with Christ. Nothing of my works. You have made another misrepresentation of Calvinism.

     

    Michael

    Pastor Michael Huffman, Th.A Th.B Th.M

  • Matthew C Jones
    Matthew C Jones Member Posts: 10,295

    Happy now?

     We are suppose to be christian gentlemen. We can go without the ungracious comments. If you would like to discuss your views on another thread I would be most happy. I am sorry that you misinterpret my intentions.


    I thought a survey is all we were asking for so I counted up the posts. Sorry if the results weren't what you wanted. Didn't mean to be "ungracious."

    Only reason I commented on this thread to begin with is to say the Logos world is much bigger that just Calvinists. Then Ted asked me the AV vs NKJV question. My views are already found in 160+ posts. (Many encourage me not to speak!)

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  • Jack Caviness
    Jack Caviness MVP Posts: 13,491

    Jack,

    …Your right, I do not know your position, but I would take from your comments that you are NOT a calvinist, because usually calvinist say so. Given the fact that you have not, it is probably a safe bet that you are not a calvinist. If so, I apologize. Just so you understand my position, I would like to see Finney off of pre-pub, not because he was not a calvinist, but because he had major doctrinal problems, including, but not limited to, the denial of original sin.

    Michael

    You are making an assumption based on limited observation. You don't know my position, and you have no right to put words in my mouth. As George—a thorough Calvinist by the way—would say, you should not read only resources with which you agree.

    Sometimes, we need to learn that we are speaking to a closed mind, and that logic is useless. Therefore, I will make no further posts to this thread.

    Jack

  • Matthew C Jones
    Matthew C Jones Member Posts: 10,295

    If you believe You persevere   rather than God Preserves   you,  it appears you are working to keep your salvation. 
     

    I believe I persevere because God preserves me. It all starts and ends with Christ. Nothing of my works. You have made another misrepresentation of Calvinism. 

    Michael


    We agree on one thing: It all starts and ends with Christ. Nothing of my works.     I have a kinship to any person who tells me they have called on the name of Jesus.I will let Jesus determine who really belongs to him. (If I embrace the rest of Calvinism it will probably be by reading Calvin and Sprugeon rather than debating in a forum. 

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  • Mark
    Mark Member Posts: 2,641 ✭✭✭

    Unlike our friend Mark, who just left  anything but a civil comment.

     

    Michael

    If you feel I have left an uncivil comment, I apologize.  I was simply agreeing with Jack's post.  We seem to have different understandings of the purpose of this forum.  My understanding is that doctrinal discussions can be tolerated and helpful, but this forum is primarily for discussing Libronix and doctrinal discussions can result as we interact with Libronix. However, I think I am finished the debating of the past few days on the purpose of this forum.

    Differences of opinion are going to result because of the vast variety of people who use this software and thus are on the forum.  Some keep quiet because of provocative language used by other members claiming their way is the biblical way and all others are false.  And the divisions continue because all (or most) claim to be biblical and based their arguments in the Bible.  People of all persuasions debate.  It is not really fair to say that if a peson is unwilling to engage in the question of calvinism that it means they are not a calvinist.  Many dont debate because they have been through the debate before.  You have stated that you know what you believe and indicate that the only reason you wish to debate is to correct others. Would that be a fair comment?  If not, I again apologize.

    I have purposefully not made known my position.   The reason is because I am not on this forum to show others that my understanding of things is correct.  I am on this forum to glean help from others as I use Libronix and to interact with others who use the software.  Perhaps a resource or two on Libronix could help us understand the doctrine that teaches that a person who is truly regenerated can never be lost and another resource could help us to see that it is possible to abuse that doctrine to make people think that they can sin all they want and still get to heaven because they prayed a prayer.  And perhaps as we interact with the software resources themselves, we can carry on discussions that would be beneficial to all and help all draw closer to the truths found in God's Word.  Or perhaps someone has encountered a movement they never heard before as I did in our work in Poland (the modern apostolic movement and the Seventh Day Adventists) and can ask questions on the forum and learn of resources within Libronix that can help a person to understand the movement and make an intelligent decision whether it is of God or not. 

    Thus theological debates happen on this forum while interacting with the software, and helping all of us to understand various movements (whether of God or not) better that can help us in our Christian walk.

    But I know that it is naive of me to think that will happen.  Human nature is still human nature.  We can send men to the moon, but the issues of human nature have never improved.  It is why we need a Savior and why what you said is correct...it all starts with Christ and ends with Christ and is all for the glory of God.