Septuagint translations

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Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Posted: Fri, Feb 10 2012 1:10 AM

I received this question over at www.logos4training.com, but thought answering here would be better, in case it would be useful to others also:

I understand bible study with hard copy. Can Logos take a Greek or Hebrew word and give you the various translations of that word in the Septuagint. If coming from the Greek could you the get the various Hebrew words that were translated into the Greek word in the Septuagint. If coming from the Hebrew could you get the various words in Greek in the Septuagint translation. While the Septuagint is a translation, I have thought that this may give insight to how the OT sees the NT, and so on. Can I get an actual count of the use of the various words and bring a list up in either the the original language or in English. (sort of like an Englishman's concordance. Can I also choose a word out of the Septuagint and see all the Hebrew words it represents in that translation. Being able to do this would allow me to see the differences in how various books use the words. It may allow for deeper shades of meaning.

 

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Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 10 2012 1:10 AM

Logos has two features that make this possible, so long as you own the Septuagint with Logos Morphology resource, which comes with the Original Languages Library, or Scholars' and above.

This Septuagint can be set up to show as an interlinear, with the Hebrew reconstruction aligned with the Greek text.

The Bible Word Study has a section called Septuagint translation. If you run a Bible Word Study (BWS) on a Greek Word, this section shows you the Hebrew words that are translated as that Greek word in the Septuagint. The display is shows as a chart, and you can click on individual segments to see the references:

You can do exactly the same for Hebrew words (although then you have to run the BWS directly from the LXX, or take two extra clicks).

You can also run an Analysis Search, which enables you to display all kinds of information about each use of each word in a grid (you choose which columns to display, and how to group the results):

Both of these methods will count the words used. Although the results are in Hebrew/Greek, you can hover over the Bible references to see the text in English. You can also do a different kind of search which will allow you to more easily see the results in English:

So yes, Logos will certainly help you see how Hebrew words are translated in the LXX.

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David Ames | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 10 2012 4:23 AM

""""and you can click on individual segments to see the references:""""

OK, How do we 'click' on the super small ones at the end without hiting the one before or after [Wiki reference if available please]

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Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 10 2012 6:13 AM

David Ames:

""""and you can click on individual segments to see the references:""""

OK, How do we 'click' on the super small ones at the end without hiting the one before or after [Wiki reference if available please]

It's not on the Wiki, but you can click on either the segment or the label. The label will be big enough, even if the segment is not.

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Room4more | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 10 2012 6:59 AM

Mark.

 

[EDIT:I JUST FOUND SOMETHING IN THE PROCESS SO I WILL EDIT MY POST AND STAND ASIDE]

Robert.

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Philana Crouch | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 10 2012 7:14 AM

Robert Booth:

Mark.

I really do not mean to sound rude or harsh, BUT  You got me thoroughly confused:

In the first pic you are in Is 1.1 with the word ρασις (eye.sight) highlighted saying that we can run a BWS on the word.

Starting with Isaiah 1:1 in the LXX using the word ὅρασις as the starting point run a Bible Word Study report. This will give you the various Hebrew Words that have been translated as ὅρασις. If you are starting from Hebrew using Isaiah 1:1 the word is חזון run a Bible Word Study, then add a tranlation and change it to the LXX. This will give you all of the Greek words used to for חזון.

This is a very good questions...what I love about the Bible Word Study report is its flexibility.

Blessings,

Philana

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Room4more | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 10 2012 8:38 AM

Mark.

lets look at pic #3, which two books did you splice together to get this view. I ask because there is only one Septuagint w/Logos Morph. and I did the search [lemma] just as you have shown but my results are totally different. [I.E. which book has the blue text Lemma(Hebrew) Lemma(Greek)]?

[edit: ok I figured out the blu text, but my results are still different]

[edit: pic #4, this is where sometimes I think that we have gone wacky. The verse[gen 4:14] is talking about putting pitch on the inside/outside of the Ark, What does that have to do with a 'house'? Are we saying that the transliteration is leaning towards pitching a house?---This is where we really need to be careful in what we are reading - or are attempting to interpret]

Robert...said enough - Ltr.

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Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 10 2012 2:13 PM

Robert Booth:
Are we saying that the transliteration is leaning towards pitching a house?

The LXX is a translation, not a transliteration. In Gen 6:14 the Hebrew word used is מִבַּיִת, which the LXX translators translate as ἔσωθεν, and in most English translations is translated as 'inside' in this context. מִבַּיִת has a wide lexical range, and the meaning of 'inside' is relatively rare, but obviously correct in this context. ἔσωθεν doesn't mean 'house', but always means 'inside', which shows the LXX translators understood מִבַּיִת in the same way as the English translators.

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Room4more | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 10 2012 8:59 PM

Mark Barnes:

Robert Booth:
Are we saying that the transliteration is leaning towards pitching a house?

The LXX is a translation, not a transliteration. In Gen 6:14 the Hebrew word used is מִבַּיִת, which the LXX translators translate as ἔσωθεν, and in most English translations is translated as 'inside' in this context. מִבַּיִת has a wide lexical range, and the meaning of 'inside' is relatively rare, but obviously correct in this context. ἔσωθεν doesn't mean 'house', but always means 'inside', which shows the LXX translators understood מִבַּיִת in the same way as the English translators.

Mark,

Yes it should have been translated, Thanks.........All due respects bro, but we are reading a conjecture of two, it is not just בַּיִת byt but also with the preposition of מן mn which makes it מִבַּיִת to logically deduce 'inside a house[building, dwelling, structure]' and it really is not all that rare, I got 510 verses. So when the translator's seen the word they knew enough Hebrew that they read the conjecture and were able to deduce that one does not pitch a house on the inside but the outside.....in this case the Ark, thus my question.... 

But I did state that I wanted to step aside, so I think I will now, God Bless bro……have a good wk-end……..

Thanks for sharing, Robert

 

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Is Mebin | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Feb 11 2012 2:21 AM

G'day Mark... thank you for posting this example... I often experiment with this feature, but am not as computer savvy as I'd like... it is fun to learn!  I was just wondering how useful Tov's Parallel/Aligned resource is, especially considering our original purpose.  Could you get such results by searching through Tov somehow?

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Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Feb 11 2012 3:37 AM

Robert Booth:
just בַּיִת byt but also with the preposition of מן mn which makes it מִבַּיִת to logically deduce 'inside a house[building, dwelling, structure]' and it really is not all that rare, I got 510 verses

I respectfully disagree. Context is much more important than the preposition in determining meaning in this example. I found 218 occurrences (not 510 verses) where מן is used with בית (you'll need to specify AFAT if you click the link). But the vast majority of these are translated 'house', too (more than 90%). Ignoring the preposition, the Bible Word Study that was referenced above counts 2,043 occurrences of בית, of which (in the ESV) only 10 are translated as inside, and every other occurrence is translated as house, temple, palace, household, etc. Every other English translation has a similar ratio. Where בית does mean 'inside', at least 20% of the time this is without the preposition (e.g. Ex 28:26, 39:19).

So, to be strictly accurate, a meaning of 'inside' is extremely rare without the preposition (0.01% of occurrences), whilst a meaning of inside is merely rare with the preposition (3.7% of occurrences). So the preposition certainly increases the likelihood of a translation of 'inside', but by no means makes it certain.

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Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Feb 11 2012 3:40 AM

Is Mebin:
I was just wondering how useful Tov's Parallel/Aligned resource is, especially considering our original purpose

Tov's is an old resource, and fairly limited in what you can do: http://community.logos.com/forums/p/4986/39129.aspx

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Room4more | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Feb 13 2012 6:22 AM

Mark Barnes:

Robert Booth:
just בַּיִת byt but also with the preposition of מן mn which makes it מִבַּיִת to logically deduce 'inside a house[building, dwelling, structure]' and it really is not all that rare, I got 510 verses

I respectfully disagree. Context is much more important than the preposition in determining meaning in this example. I found 218 occurrences (not 510 verses) where מן is used with בית (you'll need to specify AFAT if you click the link). But the vast majority of these are translated 'house', too (more than 90%). Ignoring the preposition, the Bible Word Study that was referenced above counts 2,043 occurrences of בית, of which (in the ESV) only 10 are translated as inside, and every other occurrence is translated as house, temple, palace, household, etc. Every other English translation has a similar ratio. Where בית does mean 'inside', at least 20% of the time this is without the preposition (e.g. Ex 28:26, 39:19).

So, to be strictly accurate, a meaning of 'inside' is extremely rare without the preposition (0.01% of occurrences), whilst a meaning of inside is merely rare with the preposition (3.7% of occurrences). So the preposition certainly increases the likelihood of a translation of 'inside', but by no means makes it certain.

 

just בַּיִת byt is just that without a prep or another modifyer, I am in agreement that  σωθεν is a Gr equivolent to מִבַּיִת . So the last sentence is what I was hoping you would understand. So many make this mistake that - well - it's just frightening. Have a g'day!! - Robert.

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