I have lost resources because of switching to L4

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Posts 726
Chris Elford | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 14 2009 10:02 AM

MarkSwaim:

Thomas Black:
Logos has intentionally and frequently stated that since L4 is such a radical departure that for the forseable future, L3 is still a viable option being supported.

Can you tell me where this has been intentionally and frequently stated? 

Mark,

 

Home page of Logos www.logos.com Banner: "Bible Study Re-imagined" for example. That seems pretty clear to me that this is a radical departure.

Bob has said in the open forum this is a complete rebuild - taken 4 years - based on .NET technology

Many statements - yes many more in the Beta process - that L3 would continue indefinitely.

Look at the quotes in final screen of the "Click Here to Learn More":

"This new version is not just the next step, it is revolutionary." - Jerry Bush

"I've been using Logos Bible Software for years, version 4 is an entirely new experience." - Thomas Black

"Logos 4 is a giant leap forward for Bible study software in many ways." - Chris Elford - blush

Blogs:

"The 3.0 version of Logos Bible Software has been out in the marketplace for several years, and it works pretty well. Still, it was built on an underlying technology that was better suited to 1999 than 2009, and has been starting to show its age. That, and I've always thought it could use a little more design.

So, four years ago, we embarked on a ground-up rewrite of the software and a ground-up redesign of the user interface. Yes, we re-used some of the code that shows a book on screen, some of the searching internals, and so on. But the user interface, the part that users see and interact with, is completely new." - Eli Evans  http://blog.logos.com/archives/2009/11/bible_study_redesigned.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+LogosBibleSoftwareBlog+(Logos+Bible+Software+Blog)

"Today we are announcing the all-new Logos Bible Software 4, designed from scratch to accomplish our goal of helping more people do more and better Bible study.

The leading Bible software products available today (including our own Libronix DLS 3.0) are powerful tools designed 10-20 years ago. Most Bible software companies were started in a day when users owned screwdrivers for opening their computer case and knew what a DIP switch was. Our software was designed for people who liked technology and were comfortable with it. . . .

While technology has moved into the mainstream, it hasn't stopped improving. We re-invented Logos Bible Software repeatedly to stay on the cutting edge of technology and user interface. But the edge keeps moving.

Our last product couldn't anticipate the incredible inter-connectedness of today's users, with widespread broadband, wireless, and mobile-phone Internet. Today's leading programming language didn't even exist when we designed the Libronix DLS. Apple and Microsoft have changed processors, operating systems, and more. And, most importantly, the customer base has changed: today's Bible student with a computer isn't a computer hobbyist. We are appliance users who expect power, elegance, and simplicity. We want computers to be like our toasters, TV's, and cars. Turn them on and they just work.

This generation needed yet another back-to-the-drawing-board approach to Bible software. And we were glad to do it. Because only by starting with a clean slate can you leave behind mistakes and poor choices. Only facing an empty whiteboard can you design an architecture that isn't constrained by the limitations of long-gone hardware and operating systems. Only by abandoning your existing product can you truly hear what your users want in a world unconstrained by yesterday's designs.

Throwing it all away and starting over is incredibly rare in the software world. It is considered a dangerous business decision. It puts years between major releases and increases development costs. And the better your existing product is, the more your new product upsets existing users, many of whom just wanted a few small improvements.

But it is the only way to take advantage of the latest technology. It is the only way to design for today's users, and their expectations about elegant design, powerful features, and Internet integration. It is the only way to keep some of the world's finest software developers interested and engaged. (It's no fun maintaining a decades-old codebase.)

Starting over takes courage, but it is the only way to do something extraordinary." - Bob Pritchett  http://blog.logos.com/archives/2009/11/introducing_logos_bible_software_4.html

You can search the forums for Bob Pritchett - start a search on whatever then go to the bottom of the results page and click on Advanced Search put Bob's name in the third field and check it out.

I think Thomas' point holds true.

Chris

Posts 5571
Forum MVP
Rich DeRuiter | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 14 2009 10:16 AM

KevinJones:

Correct. I purchased the crossgrade and didn't get the harmonies. I have spent a couple hours on the phone with tech support and they were unable to help.

Bradley's quote seems to indicate that I would need to purchase the Logos LE upgrade to have the harmonies

I'm new to this discussion, but this last statement doesn't make sense to me. If you purchased the Logos4 crossgrade you have the LE edition; there are no other Logos4 editions for sale. If you merely installed the L4 engine (free) you did not purchase a Logos4 crossgrade and do not have LE.

Which is it?

 

 Help links: WIKI;  Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)

Posts 418
davidphillips | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 14 2009 10:16 AM

Kevin,

I just got back to my computer. I wanted to let you know that I was also under the assumption that you had not purchased the minimal crossgrade. I hope that this is remedied quickly for you, and I trust, given Logos' track record, that it will!

EDIT - I skimmed some of the responses, so perhaps someone already mentioned this, but have you by any chance tried typing "update resources" in the command bar?

Posts 3810
spitzerpl | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 14 2009 10:26 AM

Jon Rumble:
Settle Philip Smile

Sorry if my tone sounded so direct, which it did. That would be a first class conditional if, otherwise known as the politically correct if. I could have stated it better. I merely meant to say that whatever is listed on the page needs to be what people receive. I did not mean to imply that I thought Logos was not doing that already.

Posts 1977
Mark | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 14 2009 11:40 AM

Chris Elford:
I think Thomas' point holds true.

Hi Chris

Thanks for your post.. I appreciate you taking the time to write it.  I took Thomas' point differently.  Of course after L4 was released there are multiple statements that tell us that it is completely new.  I thought Thomas was referring to pre L4 release.  While there may have been information on L4, and while we were told it would be better and I even think I remember hearing it would be a new design, I never realized it would be a bran new program that would have nothing in common with L3. 

I am looking forward to L4.  I have ordered the dvd.  My point was that it was a surprise to see how different L4 is.  It has taken many by surprise which is strange when considering that all L3 users were mass emailed, and via other forms of communication, told that L4 would be equivalent to purchasing a new platform, new program, with many features retained and many gone...not just the usual upgrade to a better L3.

In Christ,

Mark

Posts 726
Chris Elford | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 14 2009 1:46 PM

MarkSwaim:

Chris Elford:
I think Thomas' point holds true.

Hi Chris

Thanks for your post.. I appreciate you taking the time to write it.  I took Thomas' point differently.  Of course after L4 was released there are multiple statements that tell us that it is completely new.  I thought Thomas was referring to pre L4 release.  While there may have been information on L4, and while we were told it would be better and I even think I remember hearing it would be a new design, I never realized it would be a bran new program that would have nothing in common with L3. 

I am looking forward to L4.  I have ordered the dvd.  My point was that it was a surprise to see how different L4 is.  It has taken many by surprise which is strange when considering that all L3 users were mass emailed, and via other forms of communication, told that L4 would be equivalent to purchasing a new platform, new program, with many features retained and many gone...not just the usual upgrade to a better L3.

In Christ,

Mark

Mark,

Thanks for your clarification. It seems to me that the "surprise launch" of L4 caught a lot of people by "surprise." I understand Bob's reasoning - and quoted him extensively in another thread - but also see the "dark side" to it.

It is very hard to really over-communicate on something like this. I just wanted to "defend" Logos for at least saying that it was new. I don't think they hid it. Could they have done better, yes. But you know how good hindsight is.

I also recognize that non-beta tester didn't have the preliminary info we did. It is hard to put myself fully in your shoes - what did you know and when and how much would it make sense given what you knew at the time.

Suffice it to say, we have a brand new program. It is very different from anything we've had. There are massive philosophical and practical changes -- and it is still a work in progress. Those things are hard to adjust to and, particularly the "work in progress" aspect, hard for some to accept.

We all need to operate with some grace. I'm embracing L4 more and more each day. But I had 2 months to vent and complain and get used to it -- at least 2 months more than you have had.

I meant no offense and apologize if I gave any, and I have taken none.

Blessings,

Chris

Posts 352
Mike & Rachel Aubrey | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 14 2009 1:59 PM

Shawn Drewett:
Kevin, welcome to the unsatisfied customer club! There are hundreds of us at this time.

More like a few dozen really loud ones.

Posts 352
Mike & Rachel Aubrey | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 14 2009 2:05 PM

David B Phillips:
EDIT - I skimmed some of the responses, so perhaps someone already mentioned this, but have you by any chance tried typing "update resources" in the command bar?

Yes, Kevin, do what David suggests: "update resources". It'll take a couple minutes, but it will compare everything you have on your hard drive with your license on the server. After that, a download should start.

Posts 143
iamk | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 14 2009 3:22 PM

Mike and David,

I have done the update now and update resources on many occasions over the last few days. I am guessing this issue will have to be settled by Logos.

Posts 184
LogosEmployee
Dan Pritchett | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 14 2009 5:44 PM

MarkSwaim:
It has taken many by surprise which is strange when considering that all L3 users were mass emailed,

Mark, I need your help! Please forward me a copy of the email you are referring to so I can stop the madness before it spreads. Thanks!

I have been, for the most part, quietly stalking the forums and reading almost all the posts. I am continually amazed at the abuse the "marketing" department is taking. We are criticized for a lot of things like "lies, deceit, misinformation, stealing, mass emails, deception..." and I am seeing all the people who claim to know better than everyone here at Logos, and have more experience and brilliance in marketing and business than apparently everyone at Logos has, and quite frankly I am trying hard not to take it personally as the VP of Marketing.

It is very clear that some people are frustrated and confused, and it is very clear that there is no single page on the website that has 100% of all of the answers to 100% of all of the questions that 100% of all of the world may ever have related to Logos, Logos 3, Logos 4, upgrades, Mac, new product, differences, and 1,000 other things. Obviously a website has more than one page, and there are more ways to communicate to people than having one web page that is so massively long that it would take you a month to read it all and wouldn't really be what anyone but a very small handful of people would actually want. Truth be told the majority of our customers trust us to take care of them and they buy without any documentation at all and are very happy. You may have even seen the comments from one customer on the blog who wrote:

"I'm somewhat surprised by the criticism here. The first thing I did when I heard the news was click the upgrade button - a no-brainer for me. The vast majority of other companies charge huge amounts of money for upgrades. A few dollars for totally new software is terrific value, particularly when you also get long-awaited resources (such as the reverse-interlinears in most major versions).

The upgrade does look fantastic, I'm sure there'll be teething problems, but after using Logos for more than 10 years I trust that the company will put any problems which may exist right.

While I'm waiting for the download, I'm going to order an iPhone so I can have my library in my pocket...

PS for Bob/Dale - I do have some sympathy with the nay-sayers, however. This upgrade came as a surprise - even to your sales team I rang first thing this morning! And there isn't much info available, and of course no public betas. Just as one example of the lack of info, I've just spend several hundred dollars on the Portfolio edition, but I don't actually know what I've bought because it's not in the product comparisons. I've paid the money because I trust you - but users with less 'history' with Logos will have less trust, and be more suspicious of the lack of detailed information.

I don't have time to address all the criticisms and accusations (I am busy trying to get ready for the big email/launch) but I did want to point out one simple thing that should help everyone understand what is going on: We haven't launched the product in mass email—as is being claimed. If we did, I need to find the person that did it and fire them... 'cause it sure wasn't ready to be emailed.  Big Smile

I personally send 100% of all the mass email "Logos NewsWires", and I have actually not mass-emailed NewsWire with any information related to Logos 4 at all.  If you can show me the mass email to all Logos 3 users that you are referring to, that would help me track down the culprit here that snuck into my office and figured out how to create and send a NewsWire so I can take appropriate measures. If not, please help us by encouraging others to not throw around accusations of fraud, deceit, stupidity, and actions that have not taken place or even been attempted. That would help us be in a better mood as we try to serve the very people who are sapping some of our joy. 

The fact that we have not mass emailed NewsWire should be a clue as to the state of preparedness we are in. For good or bad, the awareness that Logos 4 has already gained, is due in large part to social media and early adopter excitement, yes, and our blog, homepage... But we can't pretend we aren't shipping when we are, just because all the upgrade info is not 100% clear. The way social media works today, and the way everyone is connected more instantly than ever before is largely responsible for the amazing response we have already seen to this new product.

The fact that Logos 4 is a new platform and that "upgrade" and "crossgrade" are very small words that need to convey a wealth of information and can't easily do it, and a host of other confusing issues that you can't even begin to imagine, all contribute to the reasoning behind why we have not emailed everyone yet. We are not ready to.

I know that not having all the facts can be frustrating, and I encourage everyone to have patience. Remember, this is all 100% optional. There seems to be a lot of frustration about a completely optional purchase. There is nothing wrong with not buying. There is nothing wrong with waiting. There is nothing wrong with Logos 3. We are offering a new product with new collections and some amazing deals on new books. If you want them, please feel free to get them. If not, don't. Why would anyone spend so much time being upset about something they don't want? If someone is confused they should ask a question or wait for more information. Jumping to conclusions and assuming they were stabbed in the back last week and they just forgot to die until now, doesn't make sense.

It is also important to remember that the main frustration is from existing users, and that the new Logos 4 users (for PC... because the Mac Alpha is "yikes!") Big Smile ...) are deliriously happy. They are new, and the vast majority are already off and running and have no questions (other than the random why it takes so long to index). We love our existing users and always take care of them. Here's the challenge though. We can't release Logos 4 and not expect the existing users to be curious/want to upgrade/want questions answered.

The new Logos 4 is the flagship product of our company. We stay in business partly by selling new packages. So as I am sure all the business experts will understand that it is a simple matter of "Logos 4 is our new product, welcome to our website, would you like to purchase Logos 4? YES! That looks AWESOME!"

In order to continue staying in business, we need to sell base packages to new customers. We also need to make sure our existing customers are well taken care of. We wouldn't want to say "Here is Logos 4 for all the new customers, but you old customers who have been with us for 15 years just have to wait for an upgrade until we imagine what 100% of all your issues, questions, complaints, frustrations... will be before we even let the first one of you get into the new product" That would be cruel and unusual punishment, and a horrible way to treat our faithful customers of so many years. We hoped by allowing our faithful customers the same opportunity to check out this brand new product at the same time and trust us, as they have in the past, that we always have and always will take care of them, we would be in a good position. If there were customers that did not trust us, or needed to read a manual or rulebook before parting with their hard-earned money on one of the best deals they may ever see on our most incredible product ever, that's fine too. They could wait a few weeks more and sit on the sidelines until they were given enough information to make an informed decision.

Sorry for the rambling message, and I am sure it still doesn't answer all your questions, but I have been working almost 18 hours a day to serve our customers, and it is Saturday after all... so I need to get out of here and get some dinner...

The short version is this: Please have patience with us, we are not perfect, we cannot possibly address every individual's personal preferences and styles for information and communication, but we are trying very hard to prepare for the big launch where we begin to communicate with our customers through mass email, direct mail, print ads in other publications, and more. We have done nothing like that yet, and hope by the time we do we will be well prepared to answer all the upgrade questions.

 

Posts 2212
Damian McGrath | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 14 2009 5:51 PM

Dan,

God bless you all.

As I say to my altar servers at almost every Mass - we won't be perfect until we're in heaven....

Posts 143
iamk | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 14 2009 6:03 PM

Dan,

thanks for the update. It sounds like you all are working diligently on things. It's good to hear these details.

Posts 605
John Fugh, Jr. | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 14 2009 6:06 PM

DanPritchett:
we are trying very hard to prepare for the big launch where we begin to communicate with our customers through mass email, direct mail, print ads in other publications, and more. We have done nothing like that yet, and hope by the time we do we will be well prepared to answer all the upgrade questions.

Thanks for the update.  One correction....the 16 page ad in Bible Study Magazine.  Wink

All jesting aside - Keep up the great work!

John

Posts 146
Ross Strader | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 14 2009 6:14 PM

Dan, well done. That was very good. 

I think I'm making a "Dan Pritchett is my homeboy" t-shirt... anyone want to order one? 

 

Logos user since '99

Ross

MacBook Pro 15' Retina  •  2.7 GHz Intel Core i7  •  16 GB 1600 MHz DDR3  •  Version 10.10

Posts 2829
Don Awalt | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 14 2009 6:17 PM

I think part of the reason this is such a controversial product introduction is that, for old time users, it seems that the Logos priority is now new users.  Whenever a complaint surfaces about a feature/function that a user relies upon being unavailable in version 4, the answer is "well of course you can still use version 3". 

But we all know version 4 is the only future for the product, as you can't stay on version 3 forever if you see bible software as a dynamic that needs to grow with your needs. So to that set of old users, the message today is "You can't move ahead and keep what you have.  In 3-6 months you can."  That's not a happy message. 

Those users also hear "Don't upgrade, we'll work with the new users with our new product, when it catches up to what you had then jump on".  Is that a good way to treat the loyal customers that bought product and resources in the past? Is the lure of new customers so great you are willing to take a little risk with the old timers? If the new users are the priority now, what if new features demanded by new users prevent the functionality of old users from getting in for a very long time, if ever?  All of these questions start to come into play when you signal that the old users are not the priority in product development decisions.

A year from now this will likely all blow over, save a few scars, when old users have an updated version of 4 that has most if not all of their functions they use today.  I hope it does, for Logos' sake and the users' sake. But you can't be surprised old users are taken aback because of this, and to think that getting new functions is an adequate response for people missing existing functionality is somewhat naive IMHO.

Let's just hope that the new users are worth it, and that we don't find that a lot of old users move their dollars in another direction when they don't feel they can safely move ahead with Logos for 3, 6, or 9 months. The business lure of new users compromised what existing users thought was important in many cases, and if it happened once it can happen again.  The trust has at least been compromised.

 

Posts 5571
Forum MVP
Rich DeRuiter | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 14 2009 6:40 PM

Don Awalt:
I think part of the reason this is such a controversial product introduction is that, for old time users, it seems that the Logos priority is now new users.

Huh? How can I express my confusion at reading such a baseless statement?

I'm a long time Logos user (since 1.6), and judging by the incentives I've gotten recently, and the way Logos has listened to requests for certain missing features long-time users asked for, I'm feeling pretty prioritized. Judging by the many happy long-time users on this forum, I'd say the feeling is fairly wide-spread (though not universal, I grant).

I'm also thrilled with Logos4. It's a much better upgrade than the one from version 2 to version 3 (which also had a its detractors)

Of course Logos wants to go after new users. I hope they do.That's the only future Logos has beyond selling me a few more books, here and there.

Don Awalt:
Those users also hear "Don't upgrade, we'll work with the new users with our new product, when it catches up to what you had then jump on".  Is that a good way to treat the loyal customers that bought product and resources in the past?

I don't hear anyone saying that. Logos4 is here now. It's a bit unfinished but it's here.And long-time and new users alike are making suggestions on this forum and we're being heard all the way up to the company CEO.

And while L4 is finishing up a few things you can still use L3 and L4 at the same time! That's unprecedented! And that's a huge help to us 'old timers' who have learned to lean on a few things that L4 doesn't do yet. I have L3 open right now, in fact, checking a note file that I hope will be imported into L4 in the near future. But I don't use L3 for anything else right now, and I don't miss it a bit.

I'm not sure where all this is coming from Dan, but it seems out of touch with my experience with Logos both over the years, and in the last few weeks and months. I have higher confidence and trust on Logos as a company than with any other software I own. My experience in the last weeks with L4 has only served to boost that confidence.

 Help links: WIKI;  Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)

Posts 1977
Mark | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 14 2009 7:43 PM

Hi Dan

Thanks for the long email.  My apologies for writing an awkward sentence.  What I meant to say is that there have been no mass emailing, no intentional or frequent emailings nor information about how different L4 would be.  It would be strange for so much surprise if there had been mass emailing, frequent and intentional information that L4 was a radical departure from L3.  This was in response to Thomas Black who wrote that there had been and then to Chris who wrote a long email defending the statement with quotes that came out after the release of L4.  Sorry for the confusion in my sentence. I wrote it quickly just before leaving on a trip to console my sister who lost her one year old to H1N1 and before I left, I reread the sentence and just new I had written it poorly, but had no time to correct it.

On my part, Dan, I hope what I have been writing in various posts has come across as constructive criticism and not as a whine.  The only beef so to speak I have had is that I destroyed my laptop on the first day L4 was released because I was caught off guard with a huge download that was too much for my computer.  If I had had better warning or instruction prior, I would have waited.

I have observed you folk at Logos make changes on the website due to constructive criticism offered here on the forum and I highly applaud you for it.  I understand what is going on now.

Posts 569
J. Morris | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 14 2009 7:43 PM

As with just about any topic/argument the reaility (truth) is often found somewhere BETWEEN the 2 points... Big Smile

Posts 18
John Bass | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 14 2009 10:45 PM

I've been trying to understand where you are coming from but I really don't.  I have been using Logos since it came on a few 3 1/2 inch disks.  The program has always evolved for the better.  The company has always thrown in freebies along the way.  Some things have gone by the wayside due to copyright permissions.  I have items that I currently can't access in Logos 4...so what?  I can still read them in the previous version.  No one twisted my arm or threatened me to upgrade.  Logos has always provided excellent customer support and assistance.  In my opinion, they are one of the best software companies I have dealt with (which have been many). 

I think what disturbs me more is the attitude underlying the post.  Maybe I am misreading it but I doesn't seem particularly wholesome or building up to me -- the one listening.   If you have a concern -- express it.  But express it in a way that honors the living book that you and the software company are both dedicated to. 

 

Posts 1977
Mark | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 15 2009 3:54 AM

JohnBass:
I've been trying to understand where you are coming from but I really don't. 

JohnBass:
 If you have a concern -- express it. 

Hi John

I am not really sure who your post was directed to.  And I am not sure if I will get another chance to respond over the next two days as I will be away at a funeral.  But for my part, if you look at the posts I have written, you will find that I have praised Logos a lot and I am happy with Logos.  I have taken time to write constructive criticism because I do hope to see Logos continue to succeed.  I will not hide any annoyance that my computer was destroyed because with the download of L4 I was not given enough instruction to understand what was about to happen.  I think perhaps you are misreading.  I also think that not all posts are meant to build everyone up, nor is directed to every reader.  No one twisted my arm or threatened me to upgrade either.  I think you may not be understanding the underlying points people are making with their posts.  I agree, by the way, with your opinion, that Logos is one of the best, if not the best software company I have dealt with.  That is why I have had such a heavy investment with them.

In Christ,

Mark

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