I have lost resources because of switching to L4
If you switch from L3 Scholars OC to the L4 engine without paying the cost to upgrade, you will lose some resources. I paid for the minimal crossgrade but I did not upgrade, and therefore, I did not get the harmonies. *****There may be a misunderstanding somewhere, so this initial post is subject to change*******
See Bradley Grainger's response below.
"The harmonies, lectionaries, Biblical People etc. in Logos 4 are completely redone resources, and not just "ports" of the LDLS3 data files. A crossgrade [I think he technically means upgrade] to a LE collection is required to access them."
I have lost these resources by "upgrading" to L4.
Comments
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Kevin,
I'm sorry that that is dissapointing and that you feel misled. However, you're not losing any resources. You still have access to the old ones in 3.0. As Bradley notes, they are completely redone resources, in other words, they are new resources for 4.0. You should really consider the minimum crossgrade/upgrade. 4.0 is wonderful, and the rebuilt resources are very nice, as are new 4.0 specific resources you're missing out on (biblical things, places, etc.).
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Kevin, welcome to the unsatisfied customer club! There are hundreds of us at this time.
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David, I can't think of any other software company that would dare something like this. The resources are mine (right?), but now they will not work. This is probably the worst software transition I've ever been involved in.
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Kevin,
In fact the software company you use most does this all the time. Check out the differences on Operating systems from Microsoft and you'll see that features come and go.
That said, Logos has intentionally and frequently stated that since L4 is such a radical departure that for the forseable future, L3 is still a viable option being supported. Everything you have still works in L3. I know this isn't really going to solve your feelings here, but it is a truth that needs pointed out.
Not part of your question but a helpful link for others reading the forum and arriving here: Resources -FAQ
Sarcasm is my love language. Obviously I love you. 0 -
KevinJones said:
David, I can't think of any other software company that would dare something like this. The resources are mine (right?), but now they will not work. This is probably the worst software transition I've ever been involved in.
Needless to say, I am not exactly sanguine about this myself as I have expressed elsewhere. In defense of Logos, however, you must remember that the harmonies etc were never resources and therefore you have LOST NO RESOURCES. It would be nice though if Logos were to supply these to those who already have them or make them available separately at a small charge without the necessity to upgrade to a much larger package.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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KevinJones said:
David, I can't think of any other software company that would dare something like this. The resources are mine (right?), but now they will not work. This is probably the worst software transition I've ever been involved in.
I can see your point. Personally, I have always viewed Lectionaries and Biblical People as a function of the program rather then a resource. Harmonies I could go either way on. However I can understand where you are coming from. I would have more of a problem with it if L3 were being completely ditched. For instance, suppose a book comes out in a 3rd addition and you own the second. The third updates some states and adds a supplemental section. You have two choices. Continue to use the 2nd addition, or purchase the entire new addition. With each of these things you have the same choice, use it with the old cover (L3) or upgrade it to a new cover (L4)
As far as any other company, I can think of lots. As of matter of fact I'm not sure of any other Bible software company That works the way Logos does. Usually I'll pay this year, and next year I pay an upgrade price or keep the old platform. Logos is the only program I know of that attempts to allow perpetual access to any resource you purchase. They have thus far done an excellent job of keeping that promise. These three are the only possible exceptions that I can think of.
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KevinJones said:
David, I can't think of any other
software company that would dare something like this. The resources are
mine (right?), but now they will not work. This is probably the worst
software transition I've ever been involved in.No. You've been freely given a whole new program with significant
enhancements and improvements in functionality for working with your
whole library of books. You can choose to pay for some of the new
resources or not - either upgrading to the equivalent library, or the minimal crossgrade which just includes the resources that are needed to use some of the new features. Or you can continue to use version 3 instead or alongside
version 4.You're right though, I can't think of another software company that would 'dare' do something like that...
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Ahh Yes George. The proverbial "loophole." On the comparison page, it doesn't list the harmonies etc as new resources. They are in the same category as the rest of the resources (i.e., it implies they were resources in L3).
What other loopholes will emerge tomorrow?
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KevinJones said:
David, I can't think of any other software company that would dare something like this. The resources are mine (right?), but now they will not work. This is probably the worst software transition I've ever been involved in.
Kevin, I couldn't really believe my eyes seeing the thread you started. How in the world you can come to these conclusions. You are not loosing anything, but you are not (of course) gaining anything if you do not upgrade. It is not fair to Logos and it is misleading to other people what you announced on this forum.
P.S. Just one example: some years ago I bought Photoshop Elements v3. After some time Photoshop E. v4 came. I would have to pay for the upgrade, but I did not. I am able to use v3 till now, but I am not, since the software is old and obsolete today. Is it the problem of Adobe or my decision not to upgrade? I don't need 1 second to find answer to that.
Bohuslav
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Yes I could always stay with L3, but eventually I will want to purchase a set of books or a book that will only be available on L4.
Jon, I understand where you are coming from, but don't you at least think that I should have the same abilities and resources I had in L3. I have been a good customer for years, and spent a ton of money by my standards. How about in 2 years, they come out with the "new platform" that you will need to purchase so you can use your features. It will not make you happy when your the one who lost features and functions. Evidently, this is not affecting you.
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I'm not clear. I have lost the harmonies. You said I haven't lost anything. What do you mean?
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BOHUSLAV
I changed my title so as not to offend.
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KevinJones said:
I'm not clear. I have lost the harmonies. You said I haven't lost anything. What do you mean?
I'm not sure to whom you are responding, Although I clicked on "replied" to check, it still isn't clear so I will respond for two differing situations.
1. The harmonies etc were never resources but functions of the program so you have not lost any RESOURCES.
2. Since you can still use L3 you still have access to those functions there.george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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I am sure posters are not hearing or understanding what Logos is trying to say.
I have lost my V3 Homepage in V4 but the V3 Homepage was design for V3 and cannot be transferred to V4. V4 does have it's own Homepage. No actual resource purchased has been lost, the V3 engine is free!
Let those who feel done by Logos run a passage guide report in V3 on Matt 5. Nothing shows up in V3 but you get an entry in V4. The biblical people report in V3 was design for V3 it is not something that can be transferred. One still has it in V3, operational because that was where it was design to function in. Logos has not withdrawn the bible people report from V3.
Ted
Dell, studio XPS 7100, Ram 8GB, 64 - bit Operating System, AMD Phenom(mt) IIX6 1055T Processor 2.80 GHZ
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Thanks for the help guys. I understand what you are all saying, but the bottom line is that a core function/resource is gone for me unless I shell out alot more money. I guess this type of graded platform lends itself to this kind of issue. I guess I'm not really going to find an answer, but I think other people should know about this before they invest alot of time in upgrading and learning the program only to find out that the harmonies are gone.
It seems that the minimal crossgrade should have protected me from this. I guess that will just be my opinion.
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KevinJones said:
It seems that the minimal crossgrade should have protected me from this. I guess that will just be my opinion.
Wait a minute...you purchased the Minimal Crossgrade and did not get these resources?
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KevinJones said:
It seems that the minimal crossgrade should have protected me from this.
Sorry
Kevin, do you mean that you did get the minimal crossgrade? In that
case you should definitely have the harmonies working. In L4 they are
built as books which you access from Library, rather than a tool in a
menu somewhere...Open a library tab and enter type:harmony, they should all come up
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Kevin, I definitely don't think you're alone in this. I've spent enough time in the forums to know that. [:)]KevinJones said:It seems that the minimal crossgrade should have protected me from this. I guess that will just be my opinion.
I also believe, based on one of these posts, that you do understand that L3 continues to have all the same functionality as ever and that your concern is over the L4 minimal crossgrade. As I reflect on that, I think I have to agree with you in principle here.
Resources that are "upgraded" from L3 > L4 are recompiled to take advantage of L4's technology. I believe the point of division is that the items you reference are not an upgrade, but are in fact entirely new "resources" (term used loosely) built from the ground up. Whether right or wrong in your eyes, I think this is the distinction that caused Logos to make it's decision.
PS: Thanks for changing the title out of deference to Bohuslav - it shows the right spirit. On the technical side: I had no idea you could do that!
Grace to you,
Sarcasm is my love language. Obviously I love you. 0 -
Correct. I purchased the crossgrade and didn't get the harmonies. I have spent a couple hours on the phone with tech support and they were unable to help.
Bradley's quote seems to indicate that I would need to purchase the Logos LE upgrade to have the harmonies. I am having a hard time swallowing this since I purchased the crossgrade, I previously had the harmonies, and they are not listed as new resources on the product comparison page (implying they are already baked into the system or provided as resources).
They are not there.
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Alright. I feel like I'm not being very clear, so I apologize. I'm watching the kids while trying to have a discussion on the forum and it's proving to be very difficult.
So, I purchased the crossgrade for my package (Silver OC) for $69, but Bradley's quote seems to mean that I must upgrade to Silver LE edition to have the functions I used to have in L3.
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KevinJones said:
Correct. I purchased the crossgrade and didn't get the harmonies. I have spent a couple hours on the phone with tech support and they were unable to help.
Bradley's quote seems to indicate that I would need to purchase the Logos LE upgrade to have the harmonies. I am having a hard time swallowing this since I purchased the crossgrade, I previously had the harmonies, and they are not listed as new resources on the product comparison page (implying they are already baked into the system or provided as resources).
They are not there.
This throws a different light to your complaint, if you have cross-graded.
Ted
Dell, studio XPS 7100, Ram 8GB, 64 - bit Operating System, AMD Phenom(mt) IIX6 1055T Processor 2.80 GHZ
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KevinJones said:
Bradley's quote seems to indicate that I would need to purchase the Logos LE upgrade to have the harmonies. I am having a hard time swallowing this since I purchased the crossgrade, I previously had the harmonies, and they are not listed as new resources on the product comparison page (implying they are already baked into the system or provided as resources).
The Harmony's should absolutely be included in the minimal CrossGrade. If they are not, then the website needs to be changed immediately and those who purchased the crossgrade so far should be given a free license to these things. This is from http://www.logos.com/minimalcrossgrade
______________________________
And further down the page.......
________________________________
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Philip, wow.
You are correct? I guess we need to get this checked out. I want to remove my post if this is an error, but Bradley's post seems to indicate that I would need to pay for the LE upgrade from my OC package which would have been another $160 I don't have.
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Settle Philip [:)]
I'm sure you're misunderstanding what Bradley wrote, the only advantage of getting the Silver LE upgrade over the minimal crossgrade is a whole pile more new books really cheap [;)]
This is sounding more like an issue with
not having downloaded the new resources yet or perhaps a stuff-up with
licences synching or something like that. Type 'type:harmony' into a
library tab and compare that to the list on the minimal crossgrade page
-anything come up? Also under Tools, are Biblical People/Places/Things
greyed out or accessible? If these all aren't available they're yet to
download or your licences are synchronising properly. Try typing
"Update now" in the command box and give it 10 minutes to work, see if
it comes up with anything to download.0 -
Jon,
I have spent alot of time doing everything you're saying. I did that stuff for a couple of days and then I called tech support and they said they thought the resources should be there, but they are not. I have upgraded resources and upgraded now repeatedly. I have tried everything. This needs to be cleared up on Logos' end.
I honestly have done all the troubleshooting I can do.
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KevinJones said:
Correct. I purchased the crossgrade and didn't get the harmonies. I have spent a couple hours on the phone with tech support and they were unable to help.
Bradley's quote seems to indicate that I would need to purchase the Logos LE upgrade to have the harmonies. I am having a hard time swallowing this since I purchased the crossgrade, I previously had the harmonies, and they are not listed as new resources on the product comparison page (implying they are already baked into the system or provided as resources).
They are not there.
Sorry Kevin if my language was too harsh. I did not realize you bought a minimal crossgrade. I understand your frustration and hope it will be clarified from Logos. Logos 4 on the other hand is so great product that it is worth of upgrading. That's IMHO.
Bohuslav
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Bohuslav, you're fine man. In retrospect, I realize I wasn't very clear in my communication.
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Philip Spitzer said:KevinJones said:
It seems that the minimal crossgrade should have protected me from this. I guess that will just be my opinion.
Wait a minute...you purchased the Minimal Crossgrade and did not get these resources?
The minimal package which contains all of the Parallel Passages and Harmonies is the Scholar's Library. I have the Original Languages Library so I have some, but not all (or course, I don't have the one that I really want).
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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Bradley is right- in L3 they were associated with a function- not an actual resource, in L4 they are a resource listed in your library. Check you L3 library search harmony or harmonys- I beieve you will on show 1 resource.
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Whyndell,
I have done this for a long time now. They are not in my library. I have spent hours on the forums working through this and a couple hours over the phone with tech support. They are not in my library, but it sounds like they should be. The product comparison shows that they should be. Bradley's comment sounds like I would need to upgrade my OC package to LE to have those resources. This is not what the website says however.
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Sorry- only meant to say u should have at least the "resource"Robertsons harmony. Which is the one used in the "function" parallel and harmony resources in version 3.
I have 13 resources listed under "type:bible harmony" in v4, this should be where your copy of Robertson's is isted. If it is not then yes- you are missing a resource.
I apologize for any undue discomfort I may have caused with my post.
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KevinJones said:
Whyndell,
I have done this for a long time now. They are not in my library. I have spent hours on the forums working through this and a couple hours over the phone with tech support. They are not in my library, but it sounds like they should be. The product comparison shows that they should be. Bradley's comment sounds like I would need to upgrade my OC package to LE to have those resources. This is not what the website says however.
You are right. From what I can read at the web site, all those features or resources (however you would call them) are part of the minimal crossgrade. There must be some mistake in the fact that you are not being able to get those to your Logos 4. Even Logos would change their mind about those things and move them to the LE upgrade, you bought the minimal crossgrade in believing the info from the web page. I have seen Logos in the similar situation to grant the license to those who were mislead by the mistake in the Comparison list. You should talk to them on Monday and I am sure you will get these thing into your program in either situation. Logos is a fair company and I am sure they will make sure the situation is clarified. Have a nice day.
Bohuslav
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Philip Spitzer said:KevinJones said:
Bradley's quote seems to indicate that I would need to purchase the Logos LE upgrade to have the harmonies. I am having a hard time swallowing this since I purchased the crossgrade, I previously had the harmonies, and they are not listed as new resources on the product comparison page (implying they are already baked into the system or provided as resources).
The Harmony's should absolutely be included in the minimal CrossGrade. If they are not, then the website needs to be changed immediately and those who purchased the crossgrade so far should be given a free license to these things. This is from http://www.logos.com/minimalcrossgrade
______________________________
And further down the page.......
________________________________
But note that it does not contain Aland's Synopsis which is what I really want (and have as a function of L3).
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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After doing a little comparison, it turns out I don't have several other resources from the minimal crossgrade page on the website.
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Thomas Black said:
Logos has intentionally and frequently stated that since L4 is such a radical departure that for the forseable future, L3 is still a viable option being supported.
Can you tell me where this has been intentionally and frequently stated? I have been a forum uses since its inception and while I do miss a lot of posts, I don't think I would have overlooked this if it really was frequently stated. I think the gripe that so many have had is that L4 has been a shocking surprise...not in the sense of it's surprise release, but in that it is a complete departure from L3. I remember reading of the great changes that were to come...especially in terms of speed. I remember reading the debate about cloud computing...but I never got the impression that L4 would be the departure that you are claiming. I realize your statement is probably correct. But IF it is correct, Logos should think about hiring a PR person.
I am making the switch to L4. But I am still uneasy about whether my resources, purchased by me will actually be around years to come in the future without further upgrading. I no longer have to ask the question or wonder about it. I have my answer and I am now going to wait and get used to L4 before deciding to stop purchasing resources.
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This does speak to the issue of e-book verse paper book. I have always opted for Logos books bc I love the product and it makes me more efficient. Now I am feeling a little hesitation about having my multiple thousand dollar library dependent on a company that might be great, but is still a company that could go out of business one day or take the platform in a direction I cannot go. Sure I could stay with the engine I am using at the time, but at some point I will need to upgrade my OS to stay abreast. This will mean I will need to have my engine ported to my OS or run it in a virtual machine.
In thirty years, will I have a bunch of great resources to pass along to someone else? Perhaps.
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Well I have the Portfolio version and can only find one "Greek-English interlinear", but I'm not worried at this point. I do remember reading somewhere that most of the interlinears would be released next year in the L4 format.
If by chance I should have some that are not showing- they will take care of it.
I am learning to be patient after a rough start myself, and some disappointments.
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Whyndell Grizzard said:
I am learning to be patient after a rough start myself, and some disappointments.
Ditto! I was caught way off guard. I expected L4 to be an upgraded super L-3. I think most did. It is so vastly different that most of us L-3 longtimers were so suprised at the differences it was hard to initially see all the great things L4 does.
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KevinJones said:
In thirty years, will I have a bunch of great resources to pass along to someone else? Perhaps.
The dilemma is the same with the paper books. For example, 20 years ago, I bought Strong's Concordance, the biggest book I ever got. I was excited. Every single Bible word was in that book. Well, in the last 10 years I haven't open it once. Yes, I still have it. All about it is OK, Paper is fine, the print is OK, just, somehow, my demands on both the quality of the resources and the medium of the resources just changed. I paid a lot of money years ago in sincere believe this book (and many others like this one) will be close to my hands all my life. It is not so. It is good it is not so. The things develop. Logos 4 is a great step up to the new level. It just needs some more time to get all things there. It is not that I am not able to use L3. One dot haven't changed from that possibility. I changed. I want the new thing. I want all the new functionality of Biblical People, Places and Things, new maps, new search and language functions. I can imagine in 10 years from now, God willing, I will face the same dilemma again. In all areas of life I have to pay to upgrade to a better, newer level. I upgrade my notebook every few years, although it costs a lot of money. I am willing to pay for upgrade of software I use every day. I paid thousands of dollars for the resources, why I would hesitate to pay for upgrade of the program which I want it to grow and face the demands of the new technological opportunities. That's just my observation to the subject.
Bohuslav
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Mark,MarkSwaim said:Thomas Black said:Logos has intentionally and frequently stated that since L4 is such a radical departure that for the forseable future, L3 is still a viable option being supported.
Can you tell me where this has been intentionally and frequently stated?
Home page of Logos www.logos.com Banner: "Bible Study Re-imagined" for example. That seems pretty clear to me that this is a radical departure.
Bob has said in the open forum this is a complete rebuild - taken 4 years - based on .NET technology
Many statements - yes many more in the Beta process - that L3 would continue indefinitely.
Look at the quotes in final screen of the "Click Here to Learn More":
"This new version is not just the next step, it is revolutionary." - Jerry Bush
"I've been using Logos Bible Software for years, version 4 is an entirely new experience." - Thomas Black
"Logos 4 is a giant leap forward for Bible study software in many ways." - Chris Elford - blush
Blogs:
"The 3.0 version of Logos Bible Software
has been out in the marketplace for several years, and it works pretty
well. Still, it was built on an underlying technology that was better
suited to 1999 than 2009, and has been starting to show its age. That,
and I've always thought it could use a little more design.So, four years ago, we embarked on a ground-up rewrite of the
software and a ground-up redesign of the user interface. Yes, we
re-used some of the code that shows a book on screen, some of the
searching internals, and so on. But the user interface, the part that
users see and interact with, is completely new." - Eli Evans http://blog.logos.com/archives/2009/11/bible_study_redesigned.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+LogosBibleSoftwareBlog+(Logos+Bible+Software+Blog)"Today we are announcing the all-new Logos Bible Software 4, designed from scratch to accomplish our goal of helping more people do more and better Bible study.
The leading Bible software products available today (including our
own Libronix DLS 3.0) are powerful tools designed 10-20 years ago. Most
Bible software companies were started in a day when users owned
screwdrivers for opening their computer case and knew what a DIP switch
was. Our software was designed for people who liked technology and were
comfortable with it. . . .While technology has moved into the mainstream, it hasn't stopped
improving. We re-invented Logos Bible Software repeatedly to stay on
the cutting edge of technology and user interface. But the edge keeps
moving.Our last product couldn't anticipate the incredible
inter-connectedness of today's users, with widespread broadband,
wireless, and mobile-phone Internet. Today's leading programming
language didn't even exist when we designed the Libronix DLS. Apple and
Microsoft have changed processors, operating systems, and more. And,
most importantly, the customer base has changed: today's Bible student
with a computer isn't a computer hobbyist. We are appliance users who
expect power, elegance, and simplicity. We want computers to be like
our toasters, TV's, and cars. Turn them on and they just work.This generation needed yet another back-to-the-drawing-board
approach to Bible software. And we were glad to do it. Because only by
starting with a clean slate can you leave behind mistakes and poor
choices. Only facing an empty whiteboard can you design an architecture
that isn't constrained by the limitations of long-gone hardware and
operating systems. Only by abandoning your existing product can you
truly hear what your users want in a world unconstrained by yesterday's
designs.Throwing it all away and starting over is incredibly rare in the
software world. It is considered a dangerous business decision. It puts
years between major releases and increases development costs. And the
better your existing product is, the more your new product upsets
existing users, many of whom just wanted a few small improvements.But it is the only way to take advantage of the latest technology.
It is the only way to design for today's users, and their expectations
about elegant design, powerful features, and Internet integration. It
is the only way to keep some of the world's finest software developers
interested and engaged. (It's no fun maintaining a decades-old
codebase.)Starting over takes courage, but it is the only way to do something extraordinary." - Bob Pritchett http://blog.logos.com/archives/2009/11/introducing_logos_bible_software_4.html
You can search the forums for Bob Pritchett - start a search on whatever then go to the bottom of the results page and click on Advanced Search put Bob's name in the third field and check it out.
I think Thomas' point holds true.
Chris
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KevinJones said:
Correct. I purchased the crossgrade and didn't get the harmonies. I have spent a couple hours on the phone with tech support and they were unable to help.
Bradley's quote seems to indicate that I would need to purchase the Logos LE upgrade to have the harmonies
I'm new to this discussion, but this last statement doesn't make sense to me. If you purchased the Logos4 crossgrade you have the LE edition; there are no other Logos4 editions for sale. If you merely installed the L4 engine (free) you did not purchase a Logos4 crossgrade and do not have LE.
Which is it?
Help links: WIKI; Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)
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Kevin,
I just got back to my computer. I wanted to let you know that I was also under the assumption that you had not purchased the minimal crossgrade. I hope that this is remedied quickly for you, and I trust, given Logos' track record, that it will!
EDIT - I skimmed some of the responses, so perhaps someone already mentioned this, but have you by any chance tried typing "update resources" in the command bar?
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Jon Rumble said:
Settle Philip
Sorry if my tone sounded so direct, which it did. That would be a first class conditional if, otherwise known as the politically correct if. I could have stated it better. I merely meant to say that whatever is listed on the page needs to be what people receive. I did not mean to imply that I thought Logos was not doing that already.
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Chris Elford said:
I think Thomas' point holds true.
Hi Chris
Thanks for your post.. I appreciate you taking the time to write it. I took Thomas' point differently. Of course after L4 was released there are multiple statements that tell us that it is completely new. I thought Thomas was referring to pre L4 release. While there may have been information on L4, and while we were told it would be better and I even think I remember hearing it would be a new design, I never realized it would be a bran new program that would have nothing in common with L3.
I am looking forward to L4. I have ordered the dvd. My point was that it was a surprise to see how different L4 is. It has taken many by surprise which is strange when considering that all L3 users were mass emailed, and via other forms of communication, told that L4 would be equivalent to purchasing a new platform, new program, with many features retained and many gone...not just the usual upgrade to a better L3.
In Christ,
Mark
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MarkSwaim said:Chris Elford said:
I think Thomas' point holds true.
Hi Chris
Thanks for your post.. I appreciate you taking the time to write it. I took Thomas' point differently. Of course after L4 was released there are multiple statements that tell us that it is completely new. I thought Thomas was referring to pre L4 release. While there may have been information on L4, and while we were told it would be better and I even think I remember hearing it would be a new design, I never realized it would be a bran new program that would have nothing in common with L3.
I am looking forward to L4. I have ordered the dvd. My point was that it was a surprise to see how different L4 is. It has taken many by surprise which is strange when considering that all L3 users were mass emailed, and via other forms of communication, told that L4 would be equivalent to purchasing a new platform, new program, with many features retained and many gone...not just the usual upgrade to a better L3.
In Christ,
Mark
Mark,
Thanks for your clarification. It seems to me that the "surprise launch" of L4 caught a lot of people by "surprise." I understand Bob's reasoning - and quoted him extensively in another thread - but also see the "dark side" to it.
It is very hard to really over-communicate on something like this. I just wanted to "defend" Logos for at least saying that it was new. I don't think they hid it. Could they have done better, yes. But you know how good hindsight is.
I also recognize that non-beta tester didn't have the preliminary info we did. It is hard to put myself fully in your shoes - what did you know and when and how much would it make sense given what you knew at the time.
Suffice it to say, we have a brand new program. It is very different from anything we've had. There are massive philosophical and practical changes -- and it is still a work in progress. Those things are hard to adjust to and, particularly the "work in progress" aspect, hard for some to accept.
We all need to operate with some grace. I'm embracing L4 more and more each day. But I had 2 months to vent and complain and get used to it -- at least 2 months more than you have had.
I meant no offense and apologize if I gave any, and I have taken none.
Blessings,
Chris
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Shawn Drewett said:
Kevin, welcome to the unsatisfied customer club! There are hundreds of us at this time.
More like a few dozen really loud ones.
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David B Phillips said:
EDIT - I skimmed some of the responses, so perhaps someone already mentioned this, but have you by any chance tried typing "update resources" in the command bar?
Yes, Kevin, do what David suggests: "update resources". It'll take a couple minutes, but it will compare everything you have on your hard drive with your license on the server. After that, a download should start.
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Mike and David,
I have done the update now and update resources on many occasions over the last few days. I am guessing this issue will have to be settled by Logos.
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MarkSwaim said:
It has taken many by surprise which is strange when considering that all L3 users were mass emailed,
Mark, I need your help! Please forward me a copy of the email you are referring to so I can stop the madness before it spreads. Thanks!
I have been, for the most part, quietly stalking the forums and reading almost all the posts. I am continually amazed at the abuse the "marketing" department is taking. We are criticized for a lot of things like "lies, deceit, misinformation, stealing, mass emails, deception..." and I am seeing all the people who claim to know better than everyone here at Logos, and have more experience and brilliance in marketing and business than apparently everyone at Logos has, and quite frankly I am trying hard not to take it personally as the VP of Marketing.
It is very clear that some people are frustrated and confused, and it is very clear that there is no single page on the website that has 100% of all of the answers to 100% of all of the questions that 100% of all of the world may ever have related to Logos, Logos 3, Logos 4, upgrades, Mac, new product, differences, and 1,000 other things. Obviously a website has more than one page, and there are more ways to communicate to people than having one web page that is so massively long that it would take you a month to read it all and wouldn't really be what anyone but a very small handful of people would actually want. Truth be told the majority of our customers trust us to take care of them and they buy without any documentation at all and are very happy. You may have even seen the comments from one customer on the blog who wrote:
"I'm somewhat surprised by the criticism here. The first thing I did when I heard the news was click the upgrade button - a no-brainer for me. The vast majority of other companies charge huge amounts of money for upgrades. A few dollars for totally new software is terrific value, particularly when you also get long-awaited resources (such as the reverse-interlinears in most major versions).
The upgrade does look fantastic, I'm sure there'll be teething problems, but after using Logos for more than 10 years I trust that the company will put any problems which may exist right.
While I'm waiting for the download, I'm going to order an iPhone so I can have my library in my pocket...
PS for Bob/Dale - I do have some sympathy with the nay-sayers, however. This upgrade came as a surprise - even to your sales team I rang first thing this morning! And there isn't much info available, and of course no public betas. Just as one example of the lack of info, I've just spend several hundred dollars on the Portfolio edition, but I don't actually know what I've bought because it's not in the product comparisons. I've paid the money because I trust you - but users with less 'history' with Logos will have less trust, and be more suspicious of the lack of detailed information.
I don't have time to address all the criticisms and accusations (I am busy trying to get ready for the big email/launch) but I did want to point out one simple thing that should help everyone understand what is going on: We haven't launched the product in mass email—as is being claimed. If we did, I need to find the person that did it and fire them... 'cause it sure wasn't ready to be emailed. [:D]
I personally send 100% of all the mass email "Logos NewsWires", and I have actually not mass-emailed NewsWire with any information related to Logos 4 at all. If you can show me the mass email to all Logos 3 users that you are referring to, that would help me track down the culprit here that snuck into my office and figured out how to create and send a NewsWire so I can take appropriate measures. If not, please help us by encouraging others to not throw around accusations of fraud, deceit, stupidity, and actions that have not taken place or even been attempted. That would help us be in a better mood as we try to serve the very people who are sapping some of our joy.
The fact that we have not mass emailed NewsWire should be a clue as to the state of preparedness we are in. For good or bad, the awareness that Logos 4 has already gained, is due in large part to social media and early adopter excitement, yes, and our blog, homepage... But we can't pretend we aren't shipping when we are, just because all the upgrade info is not 100% clear. The way social media works today, and the way everyone is connected more instantly than ever before is largely responsible for the amazing response we have already seen to this new product.
The fact that Logos 4 is a new platform and that "upgrade" and "crossgrade" are very small words that need to convey a wealth of information and can't easily do it, and a host of other confusing issues that you can't even begin to imagine, all contribute to the reasoning behind why we have not emailed everyone yet. We are not ready to.
I know that not having all the facts can be frustrating, and I encourage everyone to have patience. Remember, this is all 100% optional. There seems to be a lot of frustration about a completely optional purchase. There is nothing wrong with not buying. There is nothing wrong with waiting. There is nothing wrong with Logos 3. We are offering a new product with new collections and some amazing deals on new books. If you want them, please feel free to get them. If not, don't. Why would anyone spend so much time being upset about something they don't want? If someone is confused they should ask a question or wait for more information. Jumping to conclusions and assuming they were stabbed in the back last week and they just forgot to die until now, doesn't make sense.
It is also important to remember that the main frustration is from existing users, and that the new Logos 4 users (for PC... because the Mac Alpha is "yikes!") [:D] ...) are deliriously happy. They are new, and the vast majority are already off and running and have no questions (other than the random why it takes so long to index). We love our existing users and always take care of them. Here's the challenge though. We can't release Logos 4 and not expect the existing users to be curious/want to upgrade/want questions answered.
The new Logos 4 is the flagship product of our company. We stay in business partly by selling new packages. So as I am sure all the business experts will understand that it is a simple matter of "Logos 4 is our new product, welcome to our website, would you like to purchase Logos 4? YES! That looks AWESOME!"
In order to continue staying in business, we need to sell base packages to new customers. We also need to make sure our existing customers are well taken care of. We wouldn't want to say "Here is Logos 4 for all the new customers, but you old customers who have been with us for 15 years just have to wait for an upgrade until we imagine what 100% of all your issues, questions, complaints, frustrations... will be before we even let the first one of you get into the new product" That would be cruel and unusual punishment, and a horrible way to treat our faithful customers of so many years. We hoped by allowing our faithful customers the same opportunity to check out this brand new product at the same time and trust us, as they have in the past, that we always have and always will take care of them, we would be in a good position. If there were customers that did not trust us, or needed to read a manual or rulebook before parting with their hard-earned money on one of the best deals they may ever see on our most incredible product ever, that's fine too. They could wait a few weeks more and sit on the sidelines until they were given enough information to make an informed decision.
Sorry for the rambling message, and I am sure it still doesn't answer all your questions, but I have been working almost 18 hours a day to serve our customers, and it is Saturday after all... so I need to get out of here and get some dinner...
The short version is this: Please have patience with us, we are not perfect, we cannot possibly address every individual's personal preferences and styles for information and communication, but we are trying very hard to prepare for the big launch where we begin to communicate with our customers through mass email, direct mail, print ads in other publications, and more. We have done nothing like that yet, and hope by the time we do we will be well prepared to answer all the upgrade questions.
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Dan,
God bless you all.
As I say to my altar servers at almost every Mass - we won't be perfect until we're in heaven....
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