So long Logos4...

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Rene Atchley | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jul 1 2012 10:59 AM

As I read through this thread I wonder just why should I keep buying more and more product from Logos.  Yes its a powerful software.  Yes it does back-flips.  Yes it has a great library.  Yes it's the best thing since sliced bread and jam.  Yet it is hard to use and only remains on my computer because its the only game in town after everyone else has imploded in the Christian software business..well maybe not everyone.  To be honest Logos has just worn me out with the endless need for training videos, training weekends, D. Min educational opportunities, the amazing Cloud, must have 100 year old sources, and numerous new products that just meet the spot for the new market niche. 

Egads all I want is a piece of software I can use.  Maybe when Logos produces something that doesn't require me to devote life and limb to being able to use it then my pocket book will be opened. Plus they haven't even developed works that I needed to complete my D. Min project (Paul Tillich) while producing endless garbage (yeah I know) that can be picked up for free for my Kobo. I need less from Logos so I can have more to use...>< 

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jul 1 2012 11:35 AM

Rene, I see your point without any effort at all.Big Smile However, I also see the future of computing as being more than a great librarian and search engine. Given Bob's bent for being on the cutting (bleeding) edge, I expect Logos to become a great STUDY engine. I just have to be patient (and live to a ripe old ageWink.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Lynden Williams | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jul 1 2012 12:20 PM

George Somsel:

What would be good is if, when ordering a resource, Logos would check to see whether you already have a license for it (hopefully that shouldn't be too difficult).  If it is found that you already have the resource then Logos coud display a "Notice of Duplicate Resource" and allow the user to bail out or proceed (why, I don't know).  Perhaps I'll make a suggestion to do this.

Even better, I would advise all users to check their library before ordering a book. 

I did not read the entire thread. So this may have already been addressed. Unless I am missing something here, when you go to purchase something that you already have it is greyed out on the website. Vyrso does a better job, but the logos website is catching up pretty quickly. The only difference may be collections just broken up.

 

Everything ever written in Religion and Theology formatted for Logos Bible Software.Logos Youtube Channel

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Ward Walker | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jul 1 2012 12:30 PM

George Somsel:

Even better, I would advise all users to check their library before ordering a book.  What would you do if you went to the bookstore and saw a book that looks interesting then got home only to find that you already own it?

I recently noticed that I bought a resource in Logos format...and on Amazon Kindle.  Argh.  It's a good book (Hyatt's "Platform"), but I could have been smarter in my e-library management.

Posts 322
Rene Atchley | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jul 1 2012 1:31 PM

MJ. Smith:

Rene, I see your point without any effort at all.Big Smile However, I also see the future of computing as being more than a great librarian and search engine. Given Bob's bent for being on the cutting (bleeding) edge, I expect Logos to become a great STUDY engine. I just have to be patient (and live to a ripe old ageWink.

Thanks for the input.  At this point I agree the only reasonable thing to do is grow old and hope for something better in ver. 6 I guess.

Posts 7
Phil Jagger | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jul 1 2012 3:55 PM

George Somsel:

It is a matter for dispute whether something is intuitive.  "Collections", e.g., falls under "Tools" though I could make a perfectly sound argument that it should be elsewhere (Is it not a subdivision of the Library?).  In other words, what is intuitive for one person may be counterintuitive for another.

That's nothing to do with what I am talking about.  When I say intuitive, I don't simply mean menu layout - I mean help balloons appearing with suggestions, or help on the function popping up when pressing F1.  Example:  If you type in the wrong syntax in an Excel spreadsheet formula, a notice comes up highlighting that the formula is in error and it highlights the part of the formula in error and may offer suggestions.

I don't want personal tutoring, I just want user friendly software that provides me installation choices that are congruent with MY needs.  And given the price we pay (yes for the books, but to the kind person who pointed out this obvious fact, what other software can work with the books?) these features should be a given.

These days when I buy a car I don't have to beg for air conditioning or other features which are now a part of the package (maybe because car manufacturers are on the "bleeding edge" of technology) and I don't have to get on to a forum to work out how to drive it.  It has generic functions which are stereotypical with the whole driving a car experience.  It has logically laid out dash board and function control.  If I do need to do something more obscure like entering the radio security code or pairing my blue-tooth phone, I go to the owners manual.

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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jul 1 2012 10:30 PM

George Somsel:
the answer is to remove (hide) duplicate resources. To check this I deliberately downloaded the ABDB which I have had since time immemorial (before the EBDB) since it's a free resource.  The website allowed me to do this.  Not only that, I was unable to find an indication in either the Logos4 library or in Windows Explorer that I had a duplicate (usually indicated by a (2) after the file name).


And this is the difference as Logos 4 manages your resource folder so that duplicates are not allowed**. So there is nothing to Hide and no need to conjure up an obscure command (although there is one for Notes!).

** L4 has one and only one resource folder, whereas duplicates can happen in L3/L2 as multiple resources folders are allowed and can be manipulated by the user.

George Somsel:
What would be good is if, when ordering a resource, Logos would check to see whether you already have a license for it


That is reasonable.

Dave
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Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 2 2012 2:49 AM

tom collinge:
 And how many of us knew what L4 meant by using the word reference the first time we saw it?

I did. "Reference" makes sense to me. What else would you name it?

Posts 218
Dennis Miller | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 2 2012 4:40 AM

John Sheeley:

Andrew,

Not denying you have some frustrations, but I've been using Logos 4 for over two years on the same laptop (Toshiba) and haven't experienced on single download error, or any other error for that matter. Everyone I have personal contact with (other seminary students and pastors) who have Logos 4 love it as much as I do and not one of them has ever complained about problems anywhere remotely like yours. Come to think of it, none of them have ever expressed anything but good things about the software and it's helpfulness. Honestly, for the price I've put into it, Logos has gone way above my expectations. Sure there are quirks to the system (i.e., commands I don't know) but none of them has ever hindered my use. 

And it sure beats moving boxes of books from my house to my office library!

Hope you get the issues worked out before giving up.

 

John, really, no complaints from anyone you know who uses the software? It's the slowest application I have installed on my computer. It is constantly wanting to update something which always requires a restart and that after the initial 5 - 10 minute wait for it to start up the first time since it can't seem to sync anything with logos servers in a timely manner and when it does finally start it takes anther 30 - 60 seconds to download the home page info and then it just continuously sync's slowing down menu selections and anything else you want to do. No I'm sorry but I can't believe that there are only a few of us complainers who are having trouble with this software. I keep patiently waiting for it to mature to a full functioning app but I don't think we'll ever see that with Logos 4. Luckily I do have another  very speedy, mature, functional, Bible app I turn to for my main study needs and only use logos for the misc. resources I require and have already invested in. I used to love Logos but now it's become a love/hate relationship.

Posts 930
Bill Moore | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 2 2012 7:32 AM

Ward Walker:

George Somsel:

Even better, I would advise all users to check their library before ordering a book.  What would you do if you went to the bookstore and saw a book that looks interesting then got home only to find that you already own it?

I recently noticed that I bought a resource in Logos format...and on Amazon Kindle.  Argh.  It's a good book (Hyatt's "Platform"), but I could have been smarter in my e-library management.

Hi Ward. Not knowing which book you bought first, but each company allows you to return an e-book within a certain period, something like 30 days. Still a bit aggravating, so I understand your "smarter in my e-library management" comment. I have bought more than one hard copy of a book that was already sitting happily in my library.

Pastor, Cornerstone Baptist Church, Clinton, SC

Posts 2964
tom | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 2 2012 8:29 AM

Bill Moore:
I have bought more than one hard copy of a book that was already sitting happily in my library.
Same here

Posts 134
L.D. Young | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 2 2012 1:47 PM

Dennis Miller:

John, really, no complaints from anyone you know who uses the software? It's the slowest application I have installed on my computer. It is constantly wanting to update something which always requires a restart and that after the initial 5 - 10 minute wait for it to start up the first time since it can't seem to sync anything with logos servers in a timely manner and when it does finally start it takes anther 30 - 60 seconds to download the home page info and then it just continuously sync's slowing down menu selections and anything else you want to do. No I'm sorry but I can't believe that there are only a few of us complainers who are having trouble with this software. I keep patiently waiting for it to mature to a full functioning app but I don't think we'll ever see that with Logos 4. Luckily I do have another  very speedy, mature, functional, Bible app I turn to for my main study needs and only use logos for the misc. resources I require and have already invested in. I used to love Logos but now it's become a love/hate relationship.

I really enjoy Logos Bible Software and don't seem to have many of the problems that I have read about in the forums. I do have to wait for updates and syncing like anyone else but it doesn't bother me too much. I guess I'm not usually in that big of a hurry... most of the time.

I did recently have a problem with the software and customer service that concerns me a little though. I've never tried to use pronunciation until recently and I found that it didn't work. I posted to the forums but didn't receive much help other than suggestions to call Logos. I did and after talking to a very nice young lady my problem was referred to the tech guys who asked a series of questions like what version of Windows I was using, 32 bit or 64 bit. I answered 64 bit. After a couple of weeks of them "working on it" I was told that they don't know why it isn't working and suggested I upgrade Windows to 64 bit.

I wanted to scream. I felt like Logos could care less about helping me with my problem. I wrote an email to Bob and he responded very quickly asking me what I would like him to do. I didn't know how to reply other than to say that I'd like it fixed and just wanted him to know that I received great service from customer service but the tech guys seem too busy to care.... and that's where it ended.

So here I sit with a pretty good piece of software (in my opinion) that works for 99.9% of what I want to do with it but I'm growing concerned that I have heavily invested in a company that's trying to do too much at once and may be loosing customers in the process.

I hope I'm wrong but I guess time will tell.

Posts 1204
Ward Walker | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 2 2012 6:38 PM

tom collinge:

Bill Moore:
I have bought more than one hard copy of a book that was already sitting happily in my library.
Same here

I seem to have a compulsion to buy "A history of the Arab Peoples" in hardcopy; I've bought it three times so far.  Don't know why--perhaps I should read it sometime.  I'd worry about my mental state, but take homage that I'm not compulsively buying "The Catcher in the Rye"... Confused

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Bob Pritchett | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 2 2012 6:44 PM

I just read this whole thread; I probably can't make everyone happy, but I'll try to answer a few points:

Dominick Sela:
...improvement has slowed down DRAMATICALLY; now ...  Logos is working on other platforms (Faithlife, Vyrso, Proclaim, iOS, Android), plumbing (iterations of sync that are still not complete), and who knows what other plumbing and stuff "under the covers".  This is all well and good, but from a user perspective, right now, it's as if very little is being done to improve the desktop products (Mac and PC).

We're actually doing quite a lot on the desktop, but as you observe, much of it is under the hood. Sync v2 migration is almost complete for all document types, and it will dramatically improve many things, including speed of syncing. We're also working on a very major bit of plumbing code that will hopefully speed up notes editing, but none of that code has shipped yet.

The work on other platforms is a distraction from the desktop, but much of that (iPhone, iPad, Android, etc.) is at the insistent request of our users. (Remember, there was no iPad when Logos 4 shipped!)

Dominick Sela:
Maybe Logos is rewriting the UI to not use WPF, which is worthless on all these other platforms Logos supports?

WPF is very cool, but Microsoft's new focus on Windows 8 / Metro UI seems to mean that improvements to WPF (and really, most innovation in "desktop Windows") is at an end. It would be very difficult for us to abandon WPF, but we are re-writing some components in C++ and making other changes for a more portable/speedy future. This is also a distraction from "new" stuff, but important to do. Also, we have to decide how much to invest in a "Metro" Win 8 mobile app.... another distraction.

Dominick Sela:
3. We have lost any real insight on plans and scheduled for Logos.

This is an ongoing problem -- I'm sorry! I'll try to get back into the forums more this week and provide more of that info. We've been very "heads down" recently....

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Bob Pritchett | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 2 2012 6:58 PM

Jason B:
my only option left was to call support to see if they could help me understand how to construct my syntax query correctly

I'm very sorry that support wasn't able to help you. I must confess, though, that when I read that your question was about syntax queries, I understood why. Syntax queries are complicated, and it's hard to use them without a deep understanding of linguistics, or at least Greek and Hebrew. These are skills we do not require in our customer service or tech support teams; it would simply be too hard (and too expensive) to hire this expertise for phone support.

In fact, I'd say very few people here really understand syntax queries. Which sounds terrible, except that we also know (from stats reporting) that very, very few users even attempt to use them. They really are a specialist tool, and if I had to choose between having to staff the support department with people who could teach syntax searching and removing the feature, I'd have to remove it! :-)

We did have more videos for syntax in v3, and I acknowledge we're behind on getting more made for Logos 4 (I'll take this as another reminder).

It's always been our policy to support the software, but not to train people in Bible study on the phone. We get a lot of people who call and want our staff to talk them through a specific Bible study question / exercise, rather than get help with a software issue. This can take a lot of time, and we simply can't afford it based on the price of our software. So we support the product, but send people elsewhere for training.

Of course it's hard to get everyone on exactly the same page, and the line between support and training is fuzzy and subjective; sometimes an agent is too quick to push someone off. I'm sorry if that's happened to you.

Just to put things in perspective, it costs us around $15 to answer the phone. (I know that sounds crazy, but support agent pay is spread around that range per hour, many calls are 20 minutes or longer, there's overhead of time not on calls, training, computers, phone lines, rent, electricity, supervisors, vacation, etc. 

Our software costs more than that, of course, but the price has to pay royalties, programmers, and the rest of our overhead. It doesn't take too many calls to eat all the profit and more.

I know this probably isn't a satisfactory answer, but I hope it helps explain how we got here.

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Bob Pritchett | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 2 2012 7:12 PM

Phil Jagger:
"What used to be on a menu is now a command you must remember or suck out your thumb or do an internet search for. I downloaded one of the free books recently, only to discover it was already in my library. No problem - just remove duplicate resources right?

(quoting the quote...) 

Almost everything in the command line is a duplicate of a feature you can reach via menus, or a "you shouldn't do this unless instructed to" command like scanning resource directories.

I'm not sure how you "download duplicate" resources, since Logos does the resource downloading itself and only puts one copy of the book into the Library browser. I don't think we have "remove duplicate" now, because you shouldn't be able to create a duplicate, without a lot of creative work. (I may be missing something here -- if so, I apologize.)

We do know that people want better "hide this resource" functionality, and we are working on that.

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Bob Pritchett | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 2 2012 7:15 PM

George Somsel:
What would be good is if, when ordering a resource, Logos would check to see whether you already have a license for it (hopefully that shouldn't be too difficult). 

FWIW, this is an example of the "behind the scenes" work we've been doing, that's not immediately obvious even as it uses up resources. We've been perfecting (by mapping collections, old product data, etc.) a database that helps Logos.com tell you when you already have a resource, to try and prevent duplicate orders. (Even when one or both are in collections, not sold separately.) As I understand it, this is "near" complete, with the data as good as we can make it, though we're still hunting down edge cases and may miss some very old purchases that pre-date our current database system.

Posts 2964
tom | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 2 2012 8:04 PM

Bob Pritchett:
Almost everything in the command line is a duplicate of a feature you can reach via menus, or a "you shouldn't do this unless instructed to" command like scanning resource directories.

Well we are talking about two different items, how can I limit the library to a collection or to PBs, or to ... without having to type something?  As a user, typing in anything for something to do is a command line, not just the box called 'command.'  As a user, I should not have to type in anything.  I should be able to use the mouse or my fingers to do everything (IMHO).

Posts 2964
tom | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 2 2012 8:34 PM

Bob Pritchett:
It would be very difficult for us to abandon WPF, but we are re-writing some components in C++ and making other changes for a more portable/speedy future.
Yes  

If L4 was programmed using standard programming techniques, it is possible to replace the presentation layer.  While L4 might look different because you will not have some of the features of WPF, I am very happy not having those features so that I can have a UI that is responsive.

Bob Pritchett:
Dominick Sela:
3. We have lost any real insight on plans and scheduled for Logos.

This is an ongoing problem -- I'm sorry! I'll try to get back into the forums more this week and provide more of that info. We've been very "heads down" recently....

I personally do not believe that we need to know the plans/schedule y'all have.  If we do not know, then we are not disappointed when things are late.

Bob Pritchett:
We're also working on a very major bit of plumbing code that will hopefully speed up notes editing

IMHO, this is a result of the code first, design and fix later that was at the core of designing L4.

I have seen other posts where it was stated that they removed code that was not needed to speed up the indexing - this is a clear case of poor design.  We have notes, clippings, and other types of notes used for things like the PG that all could use the same subsystem, but they have their own subsystem.  A good design to hold user data would put a lot of these items together so that it would be easier to maintain, easier to use, and would keep people from complaining.  For an example, a good user data subsystem would have been able to hold things like sermons, and people would not be complaining about not being able to store sermons within L4.

 

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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 2 2012 8:38 PM

Bob Pritchett:

Phil Jagger:
"What used to be on a menu is now a command you must remember or suck out your thumb or do an internet search for. I downloaded one of the free books recently, only to discover it was already in my library. No problem - just remove duplicate resources right?

(quoting the quote...) 

Phil was "quoting the quote" of the original poster (Andrew), who he thought was Kevin!

Bob Pritchett:
I'm not sure how you "download duplicate" resources, since Logos does the resource downloading itself and only puts one copy of the book into the Library browser. I don't think we have "remove duplicate" now, because you shouldn't be able to create a duplicate, without a lot of creative work. (I may be missing something here -- if so, I apologize.)

Andrew did not clarify "duplicate" and assumptions were made in the posts that followed i.e. same resource Id (LLS:xxxxx) with same/different version. Even if the file name was different Logos would know it is a duplicate resource.  But it is possible to get duplicate titles in Library for essentially the same resource even though the resource Id's are different. This can happen if the resource comes from different publishers or is an "update" of the original.

 "The Treasury of Scripture Knowledge" (TSK) is a duplicated title, complicated by the presence of "The New Treasury of Scripture Knowledge" (NTSK); last updated in 2002. The "superior" TSK  is LLS:TSK2008 last updated in 2011, and we were recommended to hide the LLS:TSK resource. The former is advertised as "The Treasury of Scripture Knowledge Cross References" as logos.com  states that I already own it! The latter TSK came from my L3 library.

Whilst that doesn't cover the original case with a free resource it shows that duplicates can happen, especially when you allow for PB's.

Dave
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Windows 10 & Android 8

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