L3 versus L4 versus L5

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Posts 2964
tom | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 21 2012 4:28 PM

MJ. Smith:

tom collinge:
Bob has said that he was not rewriting L5.

And to think I interpreted Bob's statement in the reverse way: I expected to see WPF out but the user interface/processing logic to be the same.Confused I guess we'll just have to wait and see what Bob really meant.

I hope WPF is out, but I guess that we will have to wait and see.

Posts 2964
tom | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 21 2012 4:32 PM

Robert Wazlavek:
What is WPF?
Think of WPF as the development platform that Logos used to create L4.  When the decision to use WPF, it looked like it was going to be around for a long time, but it has never fulfilled its potential.  Now, Microsoft could be going in a different direction.

Posts 325
Robert Wazlavek | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 21 2012 4:38 PM

tom collinge:

Think of WPF as the development platform that Logos used to create L4.  When the decision to use WPF, it looked like it was going to be around for a long time, but it has never fulfilled its potential.  Now, Microsoft could be going in a different direction.

So it's a software or something by Microsoft that other companies use to develop their own software?  Also, what is it that makes this platform make Logos slow?

Posts 2964
tom | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 21 2012 5:11 PM

Robert Wazlavek:
So it's a software or something by Microsoft that other companies use to develop their own software?  Also, what is it that makes this platform make Logos slow?

Here are two forum threads, but there are more

#1: http://community.logos.com/forums/t/32584.aspx

#2 http://community.logos.com/forums/p/32512/242410.aspx

Posts 8486
DAL | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 21 2012 6:35 PM

All I want from Logos 5 is new resources and new commentary sets...Stick out tongue

DAL

Posts 325
Robert Wazlavek | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 21 2012 6:44 PM

DAL:

All I want from Logos 5 is new resources and new commentary sets...Stick out tongue

DAL

I'm definitely looking forward to the base package upgrade.  However, I'm also looking forward to the increased functionality of the software with the base of it staying like Logos 4.  I wouldn't want to have to relearn a new system anytime soon.

Posts 325
Robert Wazlavek | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 21 2012 6:51 PM

Speaking of base package upgrades, how do those work?  I'm assuming each package gets its own upgrade, with the upgrade becoming progressively better with the higher packages.  But would this mean that each package's upgrade would also be progressively more expensive?  If this is the case, what were the different prices for the upgrades?  Also, what were the added bonuses?  Were these resources worth it to you guys?  Any other thoughts?

Posts 1721
LogosEmployee
Bob Pritchett | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 21 2012 10:47 PM

A rough outline of Logos Bible Software history:

1991:

 

  • v1 //  platform written from scratch
  • v1.1
  • v1.5
  • v1.6

 

1995:

 

  • v2 / Logos Library System //  platform re-write
  • v2.1
  • v2.x (I forget the details!)

 

2001:

 

  • Libronix DLS v1 //  platform re-write
  • v1.x
  • v2
  • v3 (bigger deal, some internal re-writing, new configs)

 

2009:

 

  • Logos 4 // platform re-write
  • v4.x, y, z

 

It doesn't feel like enough time for a complete platform re-write yet... but it's been long enough that Logos ought to ship something cooler than just a few tweaks and bug fixes, right? :-)

(On the other hand, with emergence of iOS, Android, web apps, etc. it feels like we're writing "a new platform" every day!...)

 

Posts 325
Robert Wazlavek | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 21 2012 10:56 PM

 

Bob Pritchett:

It doesn't feel like enough time for a complete platform re-write yet... but it's been long enough that Logos ought to ship something cooler than just a few tweaks and bug fixes, right? :-)

Oooo, yay, I hope this means L5 is coming out soon!  CakeCakeGiftGift

 

Posts 33793
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 22 2012 12:22 AM

Thanks for posting here, Bob. I'll settle for useful OR way cool.Wink

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 2964
tom | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 22 2012 2:48 AM

MJ. Smith:

Thanks for posting here, Bob. I'll settle for useful OR way cool.Wink

I would rather have useful over way cool

Posts 2964
tom | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 22 2012 2:50 AM

Bob Pritchett:
(On the other hand, with emergence of iOS, Android, web apps, etc. it feels like we're writing "a new platform" every day!...)
It feels this way because you are writing a new platform. 

Posts 219
Dennis Miller | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 22 2012 5:27 AM

Bob Pritchett:

It doesn't feel like enough time for a complete platform re-write yet... but it's been long enough that Logos ought to ship something cooler than just a few tweaks and bug fixes, right? :-)

(On the other hand, with emergence of iOS, Android, web apps, etc. it feels like we're writing "a new platform" every day!...)

You can't seriously be considering an L5, you haven't even completed the previous version yet. What it's actually been is long enough that we should have a bug free, complete as advertised, product that works quick and smooth on both windows and mac platforms. That we have yet to see.

Posts 2040
Unix | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 22 2012 5:56 AM

I have the same question, Gregory Miller!
My suggestion is that SOME select base packages would be transfered to L5 for a minor fee, not all the base packages, because I've realized that Logos makes, or tries to make, money by selling base packages.
What I mean is that when L5 comes, MANY will buy a base-package. That is a very tempting income-source for Logos.
However, what I'm trying to say, is that since Logos focuses on having a lot of e-books to offer, most customers try to collect e-books, and I WOULD assume that a great deal of the customers want to be able to keep their purchases a LONG time.

Another thing, is that many customers buy a lot of separate books and other packages and bundles. Customers who have bought separate books and other packages and bundles than base-package, for for example $500 or more to L4, should be allowed to get their L4 e-books transferred to L5 for a minor administrative fee.

Summa summarum, the cheapest base packages, and some of the most expensive base packages, should not be included in the transfer offers.

To take an exampel, the L4 Original Languages base-package and the Portfolio, should be transferred to L5 for a minor fee, but many other base-packages such as the Home-base-package and Scholar's Libary, should not since those are in-between, (or cheap, the Home), so to speak.

If You think about my suggestions You see that I used a lot of logic in this.

And I've thought about these issues all year 2012, this is not something I just spontaneously make up.

I appologize if I expressed myself less clearly than how I thought.

Gregory Miller:
Regarding new versions of Logos, if a base package was purchased for L4, will that base package transfer to L5 without having to purchase another upgrade?
I'm not so worried about the speed of the software. To make Your purchases last, You have to buy a computer that lasts several version upgrades, that means a NON-hybrid Solid State Disc on which You'll install Logos. When a new version comes out, You just keep the hardware and the install. As I see it, that's the only way to avoid having to buy new content to Logos all the time when the new versions are released. Hardware prices don't drop that quickly anymore, and CPU:s don't get higher GHz anymore.

Disclosure!
trulyergonomic.com
48G AMD octacore V9.2 Acc 11

Posts 2964
tom | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 22 2012 6:19 AM

Unix:

I have the same question, Gregory Miller!
My suggestion is that SOME select base packages would be transfered to L5 for a minor fee, not all the base packages, because I've realized that Logos makes, or tries to make, money by selling base packages.
What I mean is that when L5 comes, MANY will buy a base-package. That is a very tempting income-source for Logos.
However, what I'm trying to say, is that since Logos focuses on having a lot of e-books to offer, most customers try to collect e-books, and I WOULD assume that a great deal of the customers want to be able to keep their purchases a LONG time.

Another thing, is that many customers buy a lot of separate books and other packages and bundles. Customers who have bought separate books and other packages and bundles than base-package, for for example $500 or more to L4, should be allowed to get their L4 e-books transferred to L5 for a minor administrative fee.

Summa summarum, the cheapest base packages, and some of the most expensive base packages, should not be included in the transfer offers.

To take an exampel, the L4 Original Languages base-package and the Portfolio, should be transferred to L5 for a minor fee, but many other base-packages such as the Home-base-package and Scholar's Libary, should not since those are in-between, (or cheap, the Home), so to speak.

If You think about my suggestions You see that I used a lot of logic in this.

And I've thought about these issues all year 2012, this is not something I just spontaneously make up.

I appologize if I expressed myself less clearly than how I thought.

Gregory Miller:
Regarding new versions of Logos, if a base package was purchased for L4, will that base package transfer to L5 without having to purchase another upgrade?
I'm not so worried about the speed of the software. To make Your purchases last, You have to buy a computer that lasts several version upgrades, that means a NON-hybrid Solid State Disc on which You'll install Logos. When a new version comes out, You just keep the hardware and the install. As I see it, that's the only way to avoid having to buy new content to Logos all the time when the new versions are released. Hardware prices don't drop that quickly anymore, and CPU:s don't get higher GHz anymore.

This is based on Logos' past, and it does not imply what they did in the past they will continue to do in the future.  The main engine has been free.  There was and still is no cost to get L4.  What does cost $$$ is the resources.  Therefore, if Logos keeps their practice, L5 will be free and the books that you have will continue to work.  If L5 comes with new resources, you will need to purchase them.  For example, we could have upgraded from L3 to L4 for $0, but we would not have access to Biblical People, Biblical Places, etc... because they were new resources to L4.

Posts 2964
tom | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 22 2012 6:31 AM

Dennis Miller:

You can't seriously be considering an L5, you haven't even completed the previous version yet. What it's actually been is long enough that we should have a bug free, complete as advertised, product that works quick and smooth on both windows and mac platforms. That we have yet to see.

In a way I agree with you, and in a way I disagree with you.  When L4 came out, I said that it came out two years too soon.  What was first released for L4 was clearly an Alpha product IMHO.  Over the past two and a half years, L4 has made a lot of strides.  Still, it still has a long way to go.  L4 is by far the slowest program that I use.  Just clicking on a menu item in L4 takes a long time to see the results of the mouse action.  And just because most of us have gotten use to L4's performance does not imply that we should stop reminding Logos of this.

Never-the-less, just from a marketing point of view, yes, it is time for a new version of Logos.  I am expecting that L5 will be tightly integrated with Faithlife, and when Faithlife comes out of Beta is when we will see L5.

Posts 2040
Unix | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 22 2012 6:40 AM

*Sigh* - some of the base-packages will not change all that much from one version to another, so I don't think it' so unreasonable if Logos would let SOME base-packages be upgraded to 5 for a minor cost.
And I seriously think Logos is going to loose customers if they betray them by not letting ANY customers who have collected a lot of e-books, get their e-books transfered to L5 for a low cost. Read this post: http://www.christianforums.com/t7541241-4/#post59805698
.. future proofing is an issue and that's why it's better for many customers to go with printed matter and NO e-books.

tom collinge:
This is based on Logos' past, and it does not imply what they did in the past they will continue to do in the future. The main engine has been free.
When it comes to the separate e-books and other packages and bundles than base-packages that L4 customers have bought, it's not an issue about the new resources. What I mean is that I want to continue expanding my library now, before L5 comes, and having then bought separate e-books and other packages and bundles other than the base-package for more than $500 and ask Logos to transfer everything I have to 5. Logos can't survive if they start talking about version 5 and new customers become hesitant and start to think about the what-if's. Logos is currently holding customers in uncertainty about what will happen with our investments.
tom collinge:
If L5 comes with new resources, you will need to purchase them.

Disclosure!
trulyergonomic.com
48G AMD octacore V9.2 Acc 11

Posts 11433
DMB | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 22 2012 6:48 AM

UNIX ... have you considered living in Bellingham Washington? Summers are nice, great fishing or hunting, Canada near by. You should consider it. Get out a map.

I REALLY like your next-version upgrade policy. All packages that are NOT OL should simply not be allowed to run in the new version. That makes complete sense.

Of course I have OL.

"God will save his fallen angels and their broken wings He'll mend."

Posts 2040
Unix | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 22 2012 6:55 AM

New idea: for L4 Portfolio -customers, they could offer a transfer to 5 and call it "Old Portfolio" - which would contain the exact same e-books as the L4 Portfolio had, nothing new. For new L5 customers they could then have "New Portfolio" that would have new content. Thereby the old customers would be forced to pay up if they want the new contents, but Logos wouldn't loose any of them as customers because I'm sure that all of them would gladly accept the transfer-offer.

Either that, or if they are tired, choose to sell everything they have to someone for the $20 administrative fee.

tom collinge:
If L5 comes with new resources, you will need to purchase them.

Disclosure!
trulyergonomic.com
48G AMD octacore V9.2 Acc 11

Posts 2964
tom | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 22 2012 9:30 AM

Unix:
some of the base-packages will not change all that much from one version to another, so I don't think it' so unreasonable if Logos would let SOME base-packages be upgraded to 5 for a minor cost.

Hello Unix,

I do not believe that I was clear.  Based on Logos' history, you will be able to use everything that you have in L4 in L5 at no cost.  Again based on Logos' history, they will not be charging you to upgrade to L5 if all you want to use is your current library.  Therefore, you can continue to purchase the books you want to read.

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