L3 versus L4 versus L5
When Logos 5 comes out, do you guys think it's going to be a total overhaul to Logos 4, similar like how L4 was to L3? In watching vids where L3 was used, I can see the visual improvement made by L4. L4 definitely appears to be a modern day app, whereas L3 does seem a little out of date. But this makes me wonder if a total overhaul would be necessary with L5. Seems like L5 could easily be just a majorly improved version of L4 with a large number of issues fixed, old and missed tools added back in, completely new tools, new features in and improved usability with old tools, etc. Any thoughts? Anyone heard anything about what L5 might be like? If I'm not mistaken, wasn't Libronix first created like 10+ years ago, and basically just saw improved versions using the same base until Logos 4 came out? Do you think Logos 4 will be treated the same?
(By the way, all of this is just discussion. I don't know much about Logos versions before 4 at all. And I also don't have any idea or presupposition as to when I think L5 might come out. I'm just curious to see what people think... and if any employees might chime in with a few hints, lol.)
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Robert, I seriously doubt that L5 will be a major overhaul, like L3 was to L4. As you said, bug fixes, new features requested, etc.. Now when you are talking L6, I think that will be the one that will cause the christian and secular world to drop their jaw.
Mission: To serve God as He desires.
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I think Lynden is correct. The big competitor weakness in Logos4 has always been 'slow'. What I didn't know until just recently was that Bob didn't want to immediately wipe out 80% of his competitors with L4. Unfortunately the expected slow demise of the competitors has been slower than expected and so Logos5 will likely also continue to be slow.
Probably you think I'm joking, but imagine a high-speed Logos, iPad/Phone etc support, in-church-services support and a library that just won't quit. Competition? Don't think so. Thankfully Bob is not as hard-hearted as Pharoah and his over-speedy army nearing the Reed Sea.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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L5 doesn't look that different to me...
https://www.logos.com/media/_faithlife/GroupPrayerList.pdf.
The main difference seems to be the integration with the Faithlife stuff.
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Interesting. I wondered why you were asking, since there hasn't been a peep about L5, that I've seen.
"The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected."- G.K. Chesterton
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DMB said:
I think Lynden is correct. The big competitor weakness in Logos4 has always been 'slow'. What I didn't know until just recently was that Bob didn't want to immediately wipe out 80% of his competitors with L4. Unfortunately the expected slow demise of the competitors has been slower than expected and so Logos5 will likely also continue to be slow.
Probably you think I'm joking, but imagine a high-speed Logos, iPad/Phone etc support, in-church-services support and a library that just won't quit. Competition? Don't think so. Thankfully Bob is not as hard-hearted as Pharoah and his over-speedy army nearing the Reed Sea.
Did he give any reasons as to why? (I can speculate, but of course that would always just be speculation.[:)])
Ben said:Interesting. I wondered why you were asking, since there hasn't been a peep about L5, that I've seen.
Yeah, like I said, just discussion. The furthering of technology, especially as pertains to furthering the Kingdom, interests me is all.
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Andrew Baguley said:
L5 doesn't look that different to me...
What makes you think that is Logos 5? It just looks to me like a single-feature mockup based on what L4 currently looks like. Am I missing something?
MacBook Pro (2019), ThinkPad E540
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I wonder if L5 might follow Windows 8, to minimize compatibility problems.
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The top of the app window says "
Logos Bible Software 5". That tipped me off that it might be Logos Bible Software 5 [;)]"The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected."- G.K. Chesterton
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For me the main reason for longing to L5 is that I hope it will include some good deals on upgrading your base package. and also some improvements in the contents of the packages. I'd love a real commentary focused package for example
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Ben said:
The top of the app window says "
Logos Bible Software 5". That tipped me off that it might be Logos Bible Software 5
Good catch Ben. Did not see it before.
Mission: To serve God as He desires.
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Andrew Baguley said:
L5 doesn't look that different to me...
As for L5, don't have a clue. But getting out my
and examining the proffered evidence; there is a conspicuous absence of my nemesis, "File" which has been replaced by Documents. I hope that this iteration will yield a smoother interaction with the rest of the lauded components of this powerful program...AmenMeanwhile, Jesus kept on growing wiser and more mature, and in favor with God and his fellow man.
International Standard Version. (2011). (Lk 2:52). Yorba Linda, CA: ISV Foundation.
MacBook Pro MacOS Sequoia 15.4 1TB SSD
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Beloved said:
examining the proffered evidence; there is a conspicuous absence of my nemesis, "File" which has been replaced by Documents.
Good catch Beloved.
Mission: To serve God as He desires.
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Hey Lynden, How life in the Bahamas?
Meanwhile, Jesus kept on growing wiser and more mature, and in favor with God and his fellow man.
International Standard Version. (2011). (Lk 2:52). Yorba Linda, CA: ISV Foundation.
MacBook Pro MacOS Sequoia 15.4 1TB SSD
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The rain has stopped, the politics continue 7 weeks after the general election, and the financial cold that the US is experiencing, is giving us Pneumonia.
But I am thankful for life, family, health, house, food, clothing, work and salvation. What more can I ask for? [:D]
Mission: To serve God as He desires.
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Yes we have much to thank God for. Do you follow Myles Munroe? His messages always stir my soul. He's a mighty man of God, with a wonderful ministry.
Meanwhile, Jesus kept on growing wiser and more mature, and in favor with God and his fellow man.
International Standard Version. (2011). (Lk 2:52). Yorba Linda, CA: ISV Foundation.
MacBook Pro MacOS Sequoia 15.4 1TB SSD
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Regarding new versions of Logos, if a base package was purchased for L4, will that base package transfer to L5 without having to purchase another upgrade?
Your brother, Gregory
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Bob has said that he was not rewriting L5. I do expect L6 to be rewritten so that it does not use WPF (one of the main reasons why L4 is sooooooooooooooo slow).
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tom collinge said:
Bob has said that he was not rewriting L5. I do expect L6 to be rewritten so that it does not use WPF (one of the main reasons why L4 is sooooooooooooooo slow).
What is WPF?
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tom collinge said:
Bob has said that he was not rewriting L5.
And to think I interpreted Bob's statement in the reverse way: I expected to see WPF out but the user interface/processing logic to be the same.[*-)] I guess we'll just have to wait and see what Bob really meant.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:tom collinge said:
Bob has said that he was not rewriting L5.
And to think I interpreted Bob's statement in the reverse way: I expected to see WPF out but the user interface/processing logic to be the same.
I guess we'll just have to wait and see what Bob really meant.I hope WPF is out, but I guess that we will have to wait and see.
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Think of WPF as the development platform that Logos used to create L4. When the decision to use WPF, it looked like it was going to be around for a long time, but it has never fulfilled its potential. Now, Microsoft could be going in a different direction.Robert Wazlavek said:What is WPF?
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tom collinge said:
Think of WPF as the development platform that Logos used to create L4. When the decision to use WPF, it looked like it was going to be around for a long time, but it has never fulfilled its potential. Now, Microsoft could be going in a different direction.
So it's a software or something by Microsoft that other companies use to develop their own software? Also, what is it that makes this platform make Logos slow?
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Robert Wazlavek said:
So it's a software or something by Microsoft that other companies use to develop their own software? Also, what is it that makes this platform make Logos slow?
Here are two forum threads, but there are more
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All I want from Logos 5 is new resources and new commentary sets...[:P]
DAL
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DAL said:
All I want from Logos 5 is new resources and new commentary sets...
DAL
I'm definitely looking forward to the base package upgrade. However, I'm also looking forward to the increased functionality of the software with the base of it staying like Logos 4. I wouldn't want to have to relearn a new system anytime soon.
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Speaking of base package upgrades, how do those work? I'm assuming each package gets its own upgrade, with the upgrade becoming progressively better with the higher packages. But would this mean that each package's upgrade would also be progressively more expensive? If this is the case, what were the different prices for the upgrades? Also, what were the added bonuses? Were these resources worth it to you guys? Any other thoughts?
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A rough outline of Logos Bible Software history:
1991:
- v1 //
platform written from scratch - v1.1
- v1.5
- v1.6
1995:
- v2 / Logos Library System //
platform re-write - v2.1
- v2.x (I forget the details!)
2001:
- Libronix DLS v1 //
platform re-write - v1.x
- v2
- v3 (bigger deal, some internal re-writing, new configs)
2009:
- Logos 4 // platform re-write
- v4.x, y, z
It doesn't feel like enough time for a complete platform re-write yet... but it's been long enough that Logos ought to ship something cooler than just a few tweaks and bug fixes, right? :-)
(On the other hand, with emergence of iOS, Android, web apps, etc. it feels like we're writing "a new platform" every day!...)
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Bob Pritchett said:
It doesn't feel like enough time for a complete platform re-write yet... but it's been long enough that Logos ought to ship something cooler than just a few tweaks and bug fixes, right? :-)
Oooo, yay, I hope this means L5 is coming out soon! [^][^][G][G]
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Thanks for posting here, Bob. I'll settle for useful OR way cool.[;)]
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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It feels this way because you are writing a new platform.Bob Pritchett said:(On the other hand, with emergence of iOS, Android, web apps, etc. it feels like we're writing "a new platform" every day!...)
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Bob Pritchett said:
It doesn't feel like enough time for a complete platform re-write yet... but it's been long enough that Logos ought to ship something cooler than just a few tweaks and bug fixes, right? :-)
(On the other hand, with emergence of iOS, Android, web apps, etc. it feels like we're writing "a new platform" every day!...)
You can't seriously be considering an L5, you haven't even completed the previous version yet. What it's actually been is long enough that we should have a bug free, complete as advertised, product that works quick and smooth on both windows and mac platforms. That we have yet to see.
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I have the same question, Gregory Miller!
My suggestion is that SOME select base packages would be transfered to L5 for a minor fee, not all the base packages, because I've realized that Logos makes, or tries to make, money by selling base packages.
What I mean is that when L5 comes, MANY will buy a base-package. That is a very tempting income-source for Logos.
However, what I'm trying to say, is that since Logos focuses on having a lot of e-books to offer, most customers try to collect e-books, and I WOULD assume that a great deal of the customers want to be able to keep their purchases a LONG time.
Another thing, is that many customers buy a lot of separate books and other packages and bundles. Customers who have bought separate books and other packages and bundles than base-package, for for example $500 or more to L4, should be allowed to get their L4 e-books transferred to L5 for a minor administrative fee.
Summa summarum, the cheapest base packages, and some of the most expensive base packages, should not be included in the transfer offers.
To take an exampel, the L4 Original Languages base-package and the Portfolio, should be transferred to L5 for a minor fee, but many other base-packages such as the Home-base-package and Scholar's Libary, should not since those are in-between, (or cheap, the Home), so to speak.
If You think about my suggestions You see that I used a lot of logic in this.
And I've thought about these issues all year 2012, this is not something I just spontaneously make up.
I appologize if I expressed myself less clearly than how I thought.
I'm not so worried about the speed of the software. To make Your purchases last, You have to buy a computer that lasts several version upgrades, that means a NON-hybrid Solid State Disc on which You'll install Logos. When a new version comes out, You just keep the hardware and the install. As I see it, that's the only way to avoid having to buy new content to Logos all the time when the new versions are released. Hardware prices don't drop that quickly anymore, and CPU:s don't get higher GHz anymore.Gregory Miller said:Regarding new versions of Logos, if a base package was purchased for L4, will that base package transfer to L5 without having to purchase another upgrade?
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Unix said:
I have the same question, Gregory Miller!
My suggestion is that SOME select base packages would be transfered to L5 for a minor fee, not all the base packages, because I've realized that Logos makes, or tries to make, money by selling base packages.
What I mean is that when L5 comes, MANY will buy a base-package. That is a very tempting income-source for Logos.
However, what I'm trying to say, is that since Logos focuses on having a lot of e-books to offer, most customers try to collect e-books, and I WOULD assume that a great deal of the customers want to be able to keep their purchases a LONG time.
Another thing, is that many customers buy a lot of separate books and other packages and bundles. Customers who have bought separate books and other packages and bundles than base-package, for for example $500 or more to L4, should be allowed to get their L4 e-books transferred to L5 for a minor administrative fee.
Summa summarum, the cheapest base packages, and some of the most expensive base packages, should not be included in the transfer offers.
To take an exampel, the L4 Original Languages base-package and the Portfolio, should be transferred to L5 for a minor fee, but many other base-packages such as the Home-base-package and Scholar's Libary, should not since those are in-between, (or cheap, the Home), so to speak.
If You think about my suggestions You see that I used a lot of logic in this.
And I've thought about these issues all year 2012, this is not something I just spontaneously make up.
I appologize if I expressed myself less clearly than how I thought.
I'm not so worried about the speed of the software. To make Your purchases last, You have to buy a computer that lasts several version upgrades, that means a NON-hybrid Solid State Disc on which You'll install Logos. When a new version comes out, You just keep the hardware and the install. As I see it, that's the only way to avoid having to buy new content to Logos all the time when the new versions are released. Hardware prices don't drop that quickly anymore, and CPU:s don't get higher GHz anymore.Gregory Miller said:Regarding new versions of Logos, if a base package was purchased for L4, will that base package transfer to L5 without having to purchase another upgrade?
This is based on Logos' past, and it does not imply what they did in the past they will continue to do in the future. The main engine has been free. There was and still is no cost to get L4. What does cost $$$ is the resources. Therefore, if Logos keeps their practice, L5 will be free and the books that you have will continue to work. If L5 comes with new resources, you will need to purchase them. For example, we could have upgraded from L3 to L4 for $0, but we would not have access to Biblical People, Biblical Places, etc... because they were new resources to L4.
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Dennis Miller said:
You can't seriously be considering an L5, you haven't even completed the previous version yet. What it's actually been is long enough that we should have a bug free, complete as advertised, product that works quick and smooth on both windows and mac platforms. That we have yet to see.
In a way I agree with you, and in a way I disagree with you. When L4 came out, I said that it came out two years too soon. What was first released for L4 was clearly an Alpha product IMHO. Over the past two and a half years, L4 has made a lot of strides. Still, it still has a long way to go. L4 is by far the slowest program that I use. Just clicking on a menu item in L4 takes a long time to see the results of the mouse action. And just because most of us have gotten use to L4's performance does not imply that we should stop reminding Logos of this.
Never-the-less, just from a marketing point of view, yes, it is time for a new version of Logos. I am expecting that L5 will be tightly integrated with Faithlife, and when Faithlife comes out of Beta is when we will see L5.
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*Sigh* - some of the base-packages will not change all that much from one version to another, so I don't think it' so unreasonable if Logos would let SOME base-packages be upgraded to 5 for a minor cost.
And I seriously think Logos is going to loose customers if they betray them by not letting ANY customers who have collected a lot of e-books, get their e-books transfered to L5 for a low cost. Read this post: http://www.christianforums.com/t7541241-4/#post59805698
.. future proofing is an issue and that's why it's better for many customers to go with printed matter and NO e-books.
When it comes to the separate e-books and other packages and bundles than base-packages that L4 customers have bought, it's not an issue about the new resources. What I mean is that I want to continue expanding my library now, before L5 comes, and having then bought separate e-books and other packages and bundles other than the base-package for more than $500 and ask Logos to transfer everything I have to 5. Logos can't survive if they start talking about version 5 and new customers become hesitant and start to think about the what-if's. Logos is currently holding customers in uncertainty about what will happen with our investments.tom collinge said:This is based on Logos' past, and it does not imply what they did in the past they will continue to do in the future. The main engine has been free.
tom collinge said:If L5 comes with new resources, you will need to purchase them.
Disclosure!
trulyergonomic.com
48G AMD octacore V9.2 Acc 120 -
UNIX ... have you considered living in Bellingham Washington? Summers are nice, great fishing or hunting, Canada near by. You should consider it. Get out a map.
I REALLY like your next-version upgrade policy. All packages that are NOT OL should simply not be allowed to run in the new version. That makes complete sense.
Of course I have OL.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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New idea: for L4 Portfolio -customers, they could offer a transfer to 5 and call it "Old Portfolio" - which would contain the exact same e-books as the L4 Portfolio had, nothing new. For new L5 customers they could then have "New Portfolio" that would have new content. Thereby the old customers would be forced to pay up if they want the new contents, but Logos wouldn't loose any of them as customers because I'm sure that all of them would gladly accept the transfer-offer.
Either that, or if they are tired, choose to sell everything they have to someone for the $20 administrative fee.tom collinge said:If L5 comes with new resources, you will need to purchase them.
Disclosure!
trulyergonomic.com
48G AMD octacore V9.2 Acc 120 -
Unix said:
some of the base-packages will not change all that much from one version to another, so I don't think it' so unreasonable if Logos would let SOME base-packages be upgraded to 5 for a minor cost.
Hello Unix,
I do not believe that I was clear. Based on Logos' history, you will be able to use everything that you have in L4 in L5 at no cost. Again based on Logos' history, they will not be charging you to upgrade to L5 if all you want to use is your current library. Therefore, you can continue to purchase the books you want to read.
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Well in that case I'm not sure Logos is making all that much money (and the likeliness that items I would want comes, decreases because somehow they need to make money to afford issuing more e-books)! I think they should adjust that.
tom collinge said:I do not believe that I was clear. Based on Logos' history, you will be able to use everything that you have in L4 in L5 at no cost. Again based on Logos' history, they will not be charging you to upgrade to L5 if all you want to use is your current library. Therefore, you can continue to purchase the books you want to read.
Disclosure!
trulyergonomic.com
48G AMD octacore V9.2 Acc 120 -
Unix - I think you are the first person to accuse Logos of not making money. [;)] I can assure you Logos is a healthy company. As others have tried to explain, once you buy a logos resource (book), you own it for life. The software is free. If people ONLY bought a base package and NEVER bought additional resources, logos would be in trouble. That isn't the case.
One thing else I think you missed... Occasionally Logos will update the contents of the base packages. Sometimes this is free (these are small updates) , other times the updates are more substantial. users have the option of upgrading for a fee.
macOS, iOS & iPadOS |Logs| Install
Choose Truth Over Tribe | Become a Joyful Outsider!0 -
Repost because no one really answered these questions.
Speaking of base package upgrades, how do those work? I'm assuming each package gets its own upgrade, with the upgrade becoming progressively better with the higher packages. But would this mean that each package's upgrade would also be progressively more expensive? If this is the case, what were the different prices for the upgrades? Also, what were the added bonuses? Were these resources worth it to you guys? Any other thoughts?
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Todd Phillips said:Andrew Baguley said:
L5 doesn't look that different to me...
What makes you think that is Logos 5? It just looks to me like a single-feature mockup based on what L4 currently looks like. Am I missing something?
You'll notice some small differences, not to mention it say's Logos 5 in the title
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Unix said:
I have the same question, Gregory Miller!
My suggestion is that SOME select base packages would be transfered to L5 for a minor fee, not all the base packages, because I've realized that Logos makes, or tries to make, money by selling base packages.
What I mean is that when L5 comes, MANY will buy a base-package. That is a very tempting income-source for Logos.
However, what I'm trying to say, is that since Logos focuses on having a lot of e-books to offer, most customers try to collect e-books, and I WOULD assume that a great deal of the customers want to be able to keep their purchases a LONG time.
To take an exampel, the L4 Original Languages base-package and the Portfolio, should be transferred to L5 for a minor fee, but many other base-packages such as the Home-base-package and Scholar's Libary, should not since those are in-between, (or cheap, the Home), so to speak.Unix,
if logos did this I would never upgrade to L5. I've easily spent several thousand dollars for the resources I have and if they did not work with the new version there is no way i would upgrade. I was soooooo frustrated with L4M for so long that I seriously considered switching software. If the new version of Logos required i purchase another base package or repurchase the resources I already have then i would jump ship from Logos. I love Logos and the ability to use my resources on iOS but I would be gone.
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Robert Wazlavek said:
Repost because no one really answered these questions.
Speaking of base package upgrades, how do those work? I'm assuming each package gets its own upgrade, with the upgrade becoming progressively better with the higher packages. But would this mean that each package's upgrade would also be progressively more expensive? If this is the case, what were the different prices for the upgrades? Also, what were the added bonuses? Were these resources worth it to you guys? Any other thoughts?
I can only speak for myself as it relates going from L3 to L4. I did not upgrade my package because I did not believe the new resources were worth it. I did buy the minimal crossgrade because I wanted what was part of the crossgrade.
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Dennis Miller said:
What it's actually been is long enough that we should have a bug free,complete as advertised, product that works quick and smooth on both windows and mac platforms. That we have yet to see.
Costumer Loyalty and Customer Satisfaction are the name of the game. We users are invested to the tune of thousands of $$$ and are likely to support this business venture for our lifetime and coming generation. Logos knows this and charging an upgrade fee or introducing any element that produces fragmentation would be unwise and out of character for existing leadership. Dennis imho you are 100% on target. L5 should not and therefore will not cost us a dime.
Meanwhile, Jesus kept on growing wiser and more mature, and in favor with God and his fellow man.
International Standard Version. (2011). (Lk 2:52). Yorba Linda, CA: ISV Foundation.
MacBook Pro MacOS Sequoia 15.4 1TB SSD
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When it came to move from L3 to L4, some not only paid an upgrade fee for software (whatever that was for them) but also had to get a substantial upgrade in their hardware.
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Very true, but it should not happen for the L5 upgrade because Logos in not doing a complete re-write of the base code.Joan Korte said:When it came to move from L3 to L4, some not only paid an upgrade fee for software (whatever that was for them) but also had to get a substantial upgrade in their hardware.
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Unix said:
*Sigh* - some of the base-packages will not change all that much from one version to another, so I don't think it' so unreasonable if Logos would let SOME base-packages be upgraded to 5 for a minor cost.
Logos users have never lost resources in an upgrade nor have they been forced to pay to continue to use the resources they already own. So if you consider zero to be a low cost, you're probably safe. Some upgrades such as from L3 to L4 have required additional resources to use all the features but one doesn't have to use the new functions - one's old resources continued to work.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Robert Wazlavek said:
Speaking of base package upgrades, how do those work? I'm assuming each package gets its own upgrade, with the upgrade becoming progressively better with the higher packages. But would this mean that each package's upgrade would also be progressively more expensive? If this is the case, what were the different prices for the upgrades? Also, what were the added bonuses? Were these resources worth it to you guys? Any other thoughts?
Libronix DLS 3 was sold with base packages named Bible Study Library, Scholar's Library, Scholar's Library: Gold, etc.
When Logos 4 was announced, it also had Bible Study Library, Scholar's Library, Scholar's Library: Gold, etc.; these packages were, say, 80-90% the same as the LDLS3 versions, but maybe 5-10% of the resources were removed, and 20% were new. (I'm just making these numbers up; I haven't looked up the exact differences.) In addition, Logos 4 included new data sets such as Biblical People and Places, many new reverse interlinears, media resources, etc. Finally, a new top-end package, Platinum was added (and Portfolio above that).
To "crossgrade" from an existing base package to the "same" library for Logos 4 was $100-200 depending on the base package you started with. (Larger base packages had a higher crossgrade price.) To upgrade (from Gold) to the new Platinum base package was around $300. There was also a minimal crossgrade ($70) which just got you most of the new data sets, but none of the other new resources in the new base packages. (And, finally, the updated software could be downloaded for free, but many of the new features didn't work without the databases contained in the new base packages.)
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