L3 versus L4 versus L5

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Unix | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 22 2012 10:06 AM

Well in that case I'm not sure Logos is making all that much money (and the likeliness that items I would want comes, decreases because somehow they need to make money to afford issuing more e-books)! I think they should adjust that.

tom collinge:
I do not believe that I was clear.  Based on Logos' history, you will be able to use everything that you have in L4 in L5 at no cost.  Again based on Logos' history, they will not be charging you to upgrade to L5 if all you want to use is your current library.  Therefore, you can continue to purchase the books you want to read.

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JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 22 2012 10:37 AM

Unix - I think you are the first person to accuse Logos of not making money. Wink I can assure you Logos is a healthy company. As others have tried to explain, once you buy a logos resource (book), you own it for life. The software is free. If people ONLY bought a base package and NEVER bought additional resources, logos would be in trouble. That isn't the case.

One thing else I think you missed... Occasionally Logos will update the contents of the base packages. Sometimes this is free (these are small updates) , other times the updates are more substantial. users have the option of upgrading for a fee.

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Robert Wazlavek | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 22 2012 12:22 PM

Repost because no one really answered these questions.

Speaking of base package upgrades, how do those work?  I'm assuming each package gets its own upgrade, with the upgrade becoming progressively better with the higher packages.  But would this mean that each package's upgrade would also be progressively more expensive?  If this is the case, what were the different prices for the upgrades?  Also, what were the added bonuses?  Were these resources worth it to you guys?  Any other thoughts?

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Stephen | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 22 2012 12:49 PM

Todd Phillips:

Andrew Baguley:

L5 doesn't look that different to me...

https://www.logos.com/media/_faithlife/GroupPrayerList.pdf.  

What makes you think that is Logos 5?  It just looks to me like a single-feature mockup based on what L4 currently looks like.  Am I missing something?

You'll notice some small differences, not to mention it say's Logos 5 in the title

Posts 228
Stephen | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 22 2012 12:59 PM

Unix:

I have the same question, Gregory Miller!
My suggestion is that SOME select base packages would be transfered to L5 for a minor fee, not all the base packages, because I've realized that Logos makes, or tries to make, money by selling base packages.
What I mean is that when L5 comes, MANY will buy a base-package. That is a very tempting income-source for Logos.
However, what I'm trying to say, is that since Logos focuses on having a lot of e-books to offer, most customers try to collect e-books, and I WOULD assume that a great deal of the customers want to be able to keep their purchases a LONG time.


To take an exampel, the L4 Original Languages base-package and the Portfolio, should be transferred to L5 for a minor fee, but many other base-packages such as the Home-base-package and Scholar's Libary, should not since those are in-between, (or cheap, the Home), so to speak.

Unix,

if logos did this I would never upgrade to L5. I've easily spent several thousand dollars for the resources I have and if they did not work with the new version there is no way i would upgrade. I was soooooo frustrated with L4M for so long that I seriously considered switching software. If the new version of Logos required i purchase another base package or repurchase the resources I already have then i would jump ship from Logos. I love Logos and the ability to use my resources on iOS but I would be gone. 

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tom | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 22 2012 1:29 PM

Robert Wazlavek:

Repost because no one really answered these questions.

Speaking of base package upgrades, how do those work?  I'm assuming each package gets its own upgrade, with the upgrade becoming progressively better with the higher packages.  But would this mean that each package's upgrade would also be progressively more expensive?  If this is the case, what were the different prices for the upgrades?  Also, what were the added bonuses?  Were these resources worth it to you guys?  Any other thoughts?

I can only speak for myself as it relates going from L3 to L4.  I did not upgrade my package because I did not believe the new resources were worth it.  I did buy the minimal crossgrade because I wanted what was part of the crossgrade.

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Beloved Amodeo | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 22 2012 2:45 PM

Dennis Miller:
What it's actually been is long enough that we should have a bug free,complete as advertised, product that works quick and smooth on both windows and mac platforms. That we have yet to see.

Costumer Loyalty and Customer Satisfaction are the name of the game. We users are invested to the tune of thousands of $$$ and are likely to support this business venture for our lifetime and coming generation. Logos knows this and charging an upgrade fee or introducing any element that produces fragmentation would be unwise and out of character for existing leadership. Dennis imho you are 100% on target. L5 should not and therefore will not cost us a dime.

Meanwhile, Jesus kept on growing wiser and more mature, and in favor with God and his fellow man.

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Juanita | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 22 2012 3:05 PM

When it came to move from L3 to L4, some not only paid an upgrade fee for software (whatever that was for them) but also had to get a substantial upgrade in their hardware.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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tom | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 22 2012 3:26 PM

Joan Korte:
When it came to move from L3 to L4, some not only paid an upgrade fee for software (whatever that was for them) but also had to get a substantial upgrade in their hardware.
Very true, but it should not happen for the L5 upgrade because Logos in not doing a complete re-write of the base code.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 22 2012 6:11 PM

Unix:
*Sigh* - some of the base-packages will not change all that much from one version to another, so I don't think it' so unreasonable if Logos would let SOME base-packages be upgraded to 5 for a minor cost.

Logos users have never lost resources in an upgrade nor have they been forced to pay to continue to use the resources they already own. So if you consider zero to be a low cost, you're probably safe. Some upgrades such as from L3 to L4 have required additional resources to use all the features but one doesn't have to use the new functions - one's old resources continued to work.

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Robert Wazlavek:

Speaking of base package upgrades, how do those work?  I'm assuming each package gets its own upgrade, with the upgrade becoming progressively better with the higher packages.  But would this mean that each package's upgrade would also be progressively more expensive?  If this is the case, what were the different prices for the upgrades?  Also, what were the added bonuses?  Were these resources worth it to you guys?  Any other thoughts?

Libronix DLS 3 was sold with base packages named Bible Study Library, Scholar's Library, Scholar's Library: Gold, etc.

When Logos 4 was announced, it also had Bible Study Library, Scholar's Library, Scholar's Library: Gold, etc.; these packages were, say, 80-90% the same as the LDLS3 versions, but maybe 5-10% of the resources were removed, and 20% were new. (I'm just making these numbers up; I haven't looked up the exact differences.) In addition, Logos 4 included new data sets such as Biblical People and Places, many new reverse interlinears, media resources, etc. Finally, a new top-end package, Platinum was added (and Portfolio above that).

To "crossgrade" from an existing base package to the "same" library for Logos 4 was $100-200 depending on the base package you started with. (Larger base packages had a higher crossgrade price.) To upgrade (from Gold) to the new Platinum base package was around $300. There was also a minimal crossgrade ($70) which just got you most of the new data sets, but none of the other new resources in the new base packages. (And, finally, the updated software could be downloaded for free, but many of the new features didn't work without the databases contained in the new base packages.)

 

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Robert Wazlavek | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 22 2012 9:06 PM

Bradley Grainger (Logos):

Libronix DLS 3 was sold with base packages named Bible Study Library, Scholar's Library, Scholar's Library: Gold, etc.

When Logos 4 was announced, it also had Bible Study Library, Scholar's Library, Scholar's Library: Gold, etc.; these packages were, say, 80-90% the same as the LDLS3 versions, but maybe 5-10% of the resources were removed, and 20% were new. (I'm just making these numbers up; I haven't looked up the exact differences.) In addition, Logos 4 included new data sets such as Biblical People and Places, many new reverse interlinears, media resources, etc. Finally, a new top-end package, Platinum was added (and Portfolio above that).

To "crossgrade" from an existing base package to the "same" library for Logos 4 was $100-200 depending on the base package you started with. (Larger base packages had a higher crossgrade price.) To upgrade (from Gold) to the new Platinum base package was around $300. There was also a minimal crossgrade ($70) which just got you most of the new data sets, but none of the other new resources in the new base packages. (And, finally, the updated software could be downloaded for free, but many of the new features didn't work without the databases contained in the new base packages.)

Cool.  Thanks for the info.  Do you know anything about what might be expected when Logos 5 comes out?  Will it probably be a similar scenario?  (Some resources removed from packages, some added, some new features, a charge for crossgrade, etc.)

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tom | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jun 23 2012 2:09 AM

Robert Wazlavek:
Cool.  Thanks for the info.  Do you know anything about what might be expected when Logos 5 comes out?  Will it probably be a similar scenario?  (Some resources removed from packages, some added, some new features, a charge for crossgrade, etc.)
hi Robert, 

I would not expect an answer from Logos concerning a product that has not been announced, it could get them in trouble when it does come out.  Even speaking of generalities can get them into trouble.  This being said, I will say that I do expect the same scenario to occur.  

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Unix | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jun 23 2012 6:50 AM

Well I seriously think Logos should start charging a small fee. There are still problems with Logos: many academic titles cost a lot, for example Brill and http://www.logos.com/product/3937/the-apostolic-fathers-greek-texts-and-english-translations and I'm still waiting for REB and more Catholic theology. It's also a bit annoying that I can't get separate titles from the Hermeneia -series, and individual titles from the Believers Church Bible Commentary are a bit expensive. I'm not the type of guy who buys complete commentary -sets. Sometimes I buy commentaries as printed matter.

What I mean, is, that for someone like me who has a low income and high rent to pay (I live in a somewhat modern house in a somewhat large city due to that my girlfriend is here (she is closer to the city) and she is not movable), it's still difficult to buy more items. I'm very content with the choise of base-package I made, but to advance in my studies I should start buying more items at some point, and I have looked at some of the other packages/bundles, other than base-packages that is, and they don't seem to contain what I want. The closest match to what I want, is currently: http://www.logos.com/product/15784/essential-reference-bundle ... but the problem with it, is that it contains too many encyclopedias, and I allready have a printed matter encyclopedia that I bought in the autumn 2011 that is somewhat sufficient for my needs.

A company that has such a wide variety of items to offer, should always look for new ways to make money, especially when major new releases come, such as improvement in speed and improvement of base-packages. If they make more money they could start cutting the regular prices for items that are steep now. Of course I look for discounts, but it's more time-consuming for the customers to look for discounts, than if the regular prices are cut. And most and foremost it's only happenstance if those particular items that You want, get discounted. Of course I agree that big sales are a good way for Logos to make customers pay up, especially such customers who it's not easy to tempt by other means.

I don't buy ONLY books by Catholic authors. But some titles are way too evangelical to be interesting. I have understood from start that Logos is an evangelical company. But there wasn't really any other software that would have been an option, and I would really not have been satisfied with the functionality of Amazon Kindle and I think that Kindle titles are often expensive when considering You can get a printed book for the same price or sometimes lower for a used one and a printed book is really as good as a Kindle e-book. (Note that I'm not the kind of guy who invests a lot in cellular phones.)

Often it also takes Logos a long time to digitalize titles, for example http://www.logos.com/product/18384/popular-patristics-series-part-1 Melito of Sardis is Johannine. (Bad example as I don't know exactly how long it's been in pre-pub, but anyway it's a bit difficult to give a better example since I've only been a customer since April 19. 2012.)

Also, a minor issue is that Logos staff don't seem to be all that enthusiastic about these 2 topics: 4 Esdras and the Johannite Church in the end of the 1st century. Logos is not planning on issuing the few verses of 4 Esdras that are preserved in Gk. I don't want the Raymond E. Brown item about the Johannite Church, I don't like him.

Sorry about going Off Topic, but this was a summary of my concerns.

alabama24:
Unix - I think you are the first person to accuse Logos of not making money. Wink [...] As others have tried to explain, once you buy a logos resource (book), you own it for life. The software is free. If people ONLY bought a base package and NEVER bought additional resources, logos would be in trouble. That isn't the case.
I knew that, but for example many of the users of the L4 Original Languages -base-package are among the least likely to need the new resources in an L5 OL -base-package.
alabama24:
One thing else I think you missed... Occasionally Logos will update the contents of the base packages. Sometimes this is free (these are small updates) , other times the updates are more substantial. users have the option of upgrading for a fee.
My suggestion for increased speed in L6, would be that they test re-building parts of the software with bigFORTH, a programming language that is specialized for multitasking-speed, the improvement for the part is many times faster. As they seem to have started programming L5 it's probable too late for them to test that now.

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fgh | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jun 23 2012 8:58 AM

Robert Wazlavek:
Do you know anything about what might be expected when Logos 5 comes out?  Will it probably be a similar scenario?

If you'd clicked the e-mail link towards the top of the page, you would have gotten Bradley's original and longer post, which did include an answer of sorts (essentially, 'yes, probably'). I guess he decided he wasn't really authorized to say even that much, and didn't want to be held to it, so (unless Bob turns up) you're unlikely to get anything more.

That said, any forum user that's been here a while would tell you the same: the most likely scenario is that they do the same thing next time as they've done in the past. In fact, if anything, they seem to go in a 'more things for free' direction: there's been two minor base package updates in my time here, both of them free, and the L4 PB feature is free, while in L3 it was an add-on. But we won't know anything for sure until it's announced (or one of the Pritchetts decides to leak something).

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DMB | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jun 23 2012 9:01 AM

UNIX ... you are such a refreshing forum member.

But I must say, I was completely on board with the idea of everyone re-purchasing their resources except for the OL people.

But when you mentioned 4Ezdras and the late 1st century, I had to re-think my position. 4Esdras is far too advanced for most Logos users (no offense of course). Anyone that carefully reviews the Christianization of the older Esdras jewish text almost certainly would have to agree with me.

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fgh | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jun 23 2012 11:02 AM

Unix:
I seriously think Logos is going to loose customers if they betray them by not letting ANY customers (...) get their e-books transfered to L5 for a low cost.

I seriously think Logos is going to loose customers if they betray them by not letting ALL customers get their e-books transfered to L5 for NO cost.

But I don't expect that to happen. I expect it'll be free as in the past.

Unix:
Well I seriously think Logos should start charging a small fee.

You want us who've already payed for our books once to have to pay for them once again, so that you can get your books cheaper? Don't you think that would be a wee bit unfair? It certainly won't make you popular among those of us you want to double-charge. 

Unix:
A company that has such a wide variety of items to offer, should always look for new ways to make money

Bob doesn't need any encouragement on that front, believe me. Smile He could teach that subject. In fact, most of us would probably prefer it if he concentrated a little bit more on his main task, L4, instead of spreading himself so thin.

Unix:
the likeliness that items I would want comes, decreases because somehow they need to make money to afford issuing more e-books

Money isn't really an issue, since no books go into production until they have enough preorders to cover the production costs. Unless they completely miscalculate those costs, they're more or less unable to make a loss on a book. Bob's pretty smart that way. So if 'your' books aren't produced it's more likely because of things like:

  • they haven't [yet] managed (or had time) to negotiate a contract with the publisher
  • they believe, or know, that there wouldn't be enough buyers [yet] (this may/will change as more Catholics/Orthodox/whatever get onboard)
  • they have other resources they're more eager to produce, forcing 'yours' to wait in line
  • they may be worried about releasing too many Catholic resources too fast, leaving the intended customers too broke to buy.

Unix:
If they make more money they could start cutting the regular prices for items that are steep now.

Since the prepub system means that the full production costs are covered as soon as a resource ships, they could, theoretically, do that now. However,

  1. the contract with the publisher may not allow them to split up collections or lower the price (or the amount they have to pay the publisher for each sold book may be so high they can't afford to)
  2. Logos doesn't seem to like low regular prices; they seem to prefer high regular prices and good/great sales
  3. if the difference between the prepub price and the regular price gets too small, it becomes a lot harder to convince people to preorder, meaning that we might have to wait a lot longer for things to be produced
  4. they need a surplus on sold books in order to pay for the development of the free software.

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fgh | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jun 23 2012 11:05 AM

tom collinge:

MJ. Smith:

Thanks for posting here, Bob. I'll settle for useful OR way cool.Wink

I would rather have useful over way cool

Me too.

Dennis Miller:
What it's actually been is long enough that we should have a bug free, complete as advertised, product that works quick and smooth on both windows and mac platforms. That we have yet to see.

YesYesYesYesYesYesYesYesYesYes

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Unix | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jun 23 2012 1:39 PM

Everyone can realize that just like any company, Logos makes more money on some items, and less on others. Of course I've noticed that they don't want to make losses on any items.

There must be room to lower the prices of some items.

All this changes over time, or the strategy changes. For example popular Bibles used to be expensive, then the lowered the prices on most of the popular Bibles. That's not a good example as Bibles are a special case. And when collections are split up that basically means a lower price (for those who want only separate titles, but that's a bad example. I can't think of better examples since I haven't followed the Logos forums / looked at what item Logos offers for more than 3 months. Yet another example is that the content and price of base-packages change over time, so why couldn't some adjustment be made to separate items?

I'm sure Logos could look into some of the things I mentioned. I'll take a close look at the Brill items and email Logos a suggestion that one of those gets a new price, + that Logos would produce the few verses that have survived in a Gk fragment of 4 Esdras. I'll save the current prices and look after a long time whether any changes have been made.

fgh:
books go into production until they have enough preorders to cover the production costs. Unless they completely miscalculate those costs, they're more or less unable to make a loss on a book. Bob's pretty smart that way.
One thing that isn't too much to expect, is a change in content of other big packages/bundles than the base-packages, or new packages/bundles other than base-packages.

I disagree on that, I don't think 4 Esdras is a Christianized book.
DMB:
4Esdras is far too advanced for most Logos users (no offense of course). Anyone that carefully reviews the Christianization of the older Esdras jewish text almost certainly would have to agree with me.
(Btw, I put my replies above the quotes because that's the email standard (that I'm used to at least, I use only my own email, I'm not anyone's secretary, so I don't know for sure), also because the quote is sort of the "less important" part of a post, or something. Sorry I don't know how to express this better.)

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fgh | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jun 23 2012 2:21 PM

Unix:
Btw, I put my replies above the quotes

Please don't. That means I generally

  1. read your words having no idea what you're talking about,
  2. read the quote and begin to have a vague idea what you're talking about,
  3. have to go back to the beginning and reread everything to actually get the idea.

That's tiring, annoying and a waste of time.

Unix:
because that's the email standard

In an e-mail you generally write to one person, who presumably remembers what he's written. In a forum thread there may be 10 writers and 200 readers. No one is going to understand what you're talking about unless you make it clear who and what you're replying to.

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