Timeframe for full implementation of Logos 4 Mac?
Not sure if this has been addressed in any of the other threads, but do we have a rough idea of how long it will be before the finalized version? Are we talking weeks or months to complete this? I know it will be continually tweaked, I'm just talking about when it will be caught up to the current Windows version.
Thanks.
Comments
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David Hilty said:
Not sure if this has been addressed in any of the other threads, but do we have a rough idea of how long it will be before the finalized version?
Look here:
Help links: WIKI; Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)
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That link is for the Windows version.
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David Hilty said:
That link is for the Windows version.
AAAAH!
Second time I've done this: not realized I was in foreign territory.
The partial title in the discussion list didn't include "Logos4 Mac," which is clearly in the subject line above.
Sorry. It's Monday, and I haven't had my coffee yet.
Help links: WIKI; Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)
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Logos got burned last time by not being able to meet Mac deadlines. They will be putting out new Alphas ~ every other week as they fix bugs and make improvements.I would guess it will be months until it is ready.
Here's what Bob P. (CEO) had to say in another thread.
http://community.logos.com/forums/p/3274/26285.aspx#26285
Prov. 15:23
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Kevin Becker said:
Logos got burned last time by not being able to meet Mac deadlines. They will be putting out new Alphas ~ every other week as they fix bugs and make improvements.I would guess it will be months until it is ready.
Here's what Bob P. (CEO) had to say in another thread.
http://community.logos.com/forums/p/3274/26285.aspx#26285
Thanks. I'm not necessarily asking for a "deadline" more like a "guideline". I'd just like to have some idea of how long it will be before we get the product that the Windows users already have.
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The answer is still the same no matter how the question is phrased. Logos has given no time frame of any kind. We are out of luck on that front :-)David Hilty said:Thanks. I'm not necessarily asking for a "deadline" more like a "guideline". I'd just like to have some idea of how long it will be before we get the product that the Windows users already have.
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Joe Miller said:
The answer is still the same no matter how the question is phrased. Logos has given no time frame of any kind. We are out of luck on that front :-)David Hilty said:Thanks. I'm not necessarily asking for a "deadline" more like a "guideline". I'd just like to have some idea of how long it will be before we get the product that the Windows users already have.
I've invested in the neighborhood of $2,000 in Logos software. I don't consider, "When we get to it." a reasonable response to your customers.
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to be fair to Logos, you've invested in the digital resources, and not the software, since there giving that away free, you can gain access to your resources via either L3 on PC (via Fusion etc) or Mac L1, or Mac L4A, so i think we're pretty well catered for, yes i'd love to have the full PC L4 functionality, but i'm pretty happy with how things are looking up for now.
David O.
David Hilty said:Joe Miller said:
The answer is still the same no matter how the question is phrased. Logos has given no time frame of any kind. We are out of luck on that front :-)David Hilty said:Thanks. I'm not necessarily asking for a "deadline" more like a "guideline". I'd just like to have some idea of how long it will be before we get the product that the Windows users already have.
I've invested in the neighborhood of $2,000 in Logos software. I don't consider, "When we get to it." a reasonable response to your customers.
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David, one of the final obstacles for me to move to a Mac was the Logos announcement that they had come out with a Mac version. Here I am a year later without what I would consider a reasonable alternative to what I had on my PC. I have no desire to run parallels or boot camp on my Mac. The reason I bought a Mac is so I could be done dealing with lousy Microsoft OS. But I'm not able to use one of my most used resources prior to the switch. That's gotten a little frustrating to me. I just feel like Logos has really let it's Mac users down to this point.
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David Hilty said:
David, one of the final obstacles for me to move to a Mac was the Logos announcement that they had come out with a Mac version. Here I am a year later without what I would consider a reasonable alternative to what I had on my PC. I have no desire to run parallels or boot camp on my Mac. The reason I bought a Mac is so I could be done dealing with lousy Microsoft OS. But I'm not able to use one of my most used resources prior to the switch. That's gotten a little frustrating to me. I just feel like Logos has really let it's Mac users down to this point.
With your comments( in this thread) above though justified, how can Logos give "guidelines" or "deadlines"? More frustration, more disappointment if it does not materialize within the specified time frame. Please be patient, the truth is no one knows.
Ted
Dell, studio XPS 7100, Ram 8GB, 64 - bit Operating System, AMD Phenom(mt) IIX6 1055T Processor 2.80 GHZ
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David Hilty said:
David, one of the final obstacles for me to move to a Mac was the Logos announcement that they had come out with a Mac version. Here I am a year later without what I would consider a reasonable alternative to what I had on my PC. I have no desire to run parallels or boot camp on my Mac. The reason I bought a Mac is so I could be done dealing with lousy Microsoft OS. But I'm not able to use one of my most used resources prior to the switch. That's gotten a little frustrating to me. I just feel like Logos has really let it's Mac users down to this point.
i do share your frustration, since i'd much rather not keep running Fusion or BootCamp, and yes the Mac version is a poor cousin in contrast, but i guess i'm just delighted that this conversion is well under way, the Alpha 5 version is actually pretty usable and stable at the moment. I guess i'm probably a lot more lenient since in my past life i was a systems analyst and programmer, and it looks like L4 is such a huge project, and bring the Mac into the supported platforms is such a huge undertaking, so hats of to them. Your right about setting expectations and then not meeting them, always a tricky task when you have a Sales Team and a Development Team, who normally have very different objectives.
I maybe wouldn't let the delay on a full-on Mac client stop your move to the Mac platform though since it's such a breath of fresh air in contrast to the Windows platform, i moved over about 2 years ago and love having a machine i can just use to get a job done, rather than constantly tweak and fix. I do still keep a small Tablet PC for reading Logos books, but Mac is my prefered platform.
David
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David Hilty said:
Are we talking weeks or months to complete this?
Months, certainly, but usability will increase with each new build. My rough guestimate based on nothing but my own ignorance: a much better, usable version within two months (still alpha, not a beta yet), more or less fully functional within 8 months or so, possibly still in beta but pretty close to the final thing.
One way or another, in two months I'm sure this post will come back to haunt me.
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Chris Roberts said:
a much better, usable version within two months (still alpha, not a beta yet), more or less fully functional within 8 months or so, possibly still in beta but pretty close to the final thing.
Man I sure hope you are wrong!!!! lol!!! I hope its more like 6 months final release... I hope thats more like it!!!! Just my prayer for it....
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Richard DeRuiter said:
Second time I've done this: not realized I was in foreign territory.
Enemy? Who us? Why, we haven't shot a Windows user in weeks. [H]
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David Hilty said:
I don't consider, "When we get to it." a reasonable response to your customers.
I don't believe that the hard work being done by the Mac Development Team should be classed as "When we get to it." Since I have considerably more invested in Logos Mac than you do, I feel free to make this comment.
As one who has been in this camp since 2005 (and who was formerly the loudest complainer), I am encouraged by the progress I have seen in the last few weeks. Sure we would like to know dates, but I can understand the reluctance. Software development is even more unpredictable than kitchen remodeling, and Logos has been burned with date setting already. I think they would be foolish to make a prediction now.
Having said that, I was almost foolish enough to make one myself. [:D]
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JackCaviness said:
Enemy? Who us? Why, we haven't shot a Windows user in weeks
No not the enemy, just foreigners. A bit like trying to do something 'American' in Canada. I just ended up putting a 30.48 centimeters unit of measurement in my mouth.
Help links: WIKI; Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)
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Actually you showed the questioner that the Windows version has some catching up to do also. [H]
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As soon as possible! :-)
It's still very hard to predict when the Mac port will be at feature parity with Windows, especially since the Windows version keeps improving in parallel.
But we don't have to duplicate the features, just code the UI layer. For some features this is trivial, and one bit of UI coding "lights up" many things at once. In other features, the UI is the big part, and has to be largely redone.
The big unknown is "platform issues". There are different performance bottlenecks (and bugs) in Mono than in Microsoft's .NET, and we're still finding them. Some we fix, some we work around, and some we hope the Mono team will fix once we report it with a test case.
Overall, though, progress is good, and we're even beefing up the team. We added a developer in the last couple weeks, and hope to move another to the team in the next few weeks.
If you PROMISE not to hold me to it... I'd GUESS that you'll have good, stable build within two months that performs well on core behaviors, like reading, searching, and the Passage Guide. I'd [WILD GUESS] say we're six months from "most people can't tell the difference" between Mac/Windows functionality.
Feel free to post your priorities here. We're basically working library, reading, searching, Passage Guide, Exegetical Guide, Bible Word Study Guide, tool windows (Information, Power Lookup, Copy Bible Verses, Explorer, Cited By,...) , etc. in that order. When we hit a weird platform-specific bug that won't affect everyone (problems with Syriac text display, for example) we're putting it aside to return to later. (In the hopes that the platform may have a fix for it by the time we get back to it.)
-- Bob
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Thanks Bob. 2010 looks like everything will be done which works for me.
I'll continue to use 3 until it gets better
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Hi,
The question I have that I can't seem to find an answer for is if I get logos 4 now, will I receive the finished Mac version of the software when it is done? Or is it limited to the Alpha or Beta?
Thanks
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Peter Gott said:
The question I have that I can't seem to find an answer for is if I get logos 4 now, will I receive the finished Mac version of the software when it is done? Or is it limited to the Alpha or Beta?
You will have access to the v4 for Mac engine... This engine is now free for the Mac, so you will have access to it when it is finished.
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Peter Gott said:
Hi,
The question I have that I can't seem to find an answer for is if I get logos 4 now, will I receive the finished Mac version of the software when it is done? Or is it limited to the Alpha or Beta?
Thanks
You also get a full license for the Windows version, which is operational—although not completed—even now. I don't understand why you cannot find an answer to your question since it has received wide publicity and has been discussed multiple times on this forum.
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Bob Pritchett said:
As soon as possible! :-)
It's still very hard to predict when the Mac port will be at feature parity with Windows, especially since the Windows version keeps improving in parallel.
But we don't have to duplicate the features, just code the UI layer. For some features this is trivial, and one bit of UI coding "lights up" many things at once. In other features, the UI is the big part, and has to be largely redone.
The big unknown is "platform issues". There are different performance bottlenecks (and bugs) in Mono than in Microsoft's .NET, and we're still finding them. Some we fix, some we work around, and some we hope the Mono team will fix once we report it with a test case.
Overall, though, progress is good, and we're even beefing up the team. We added a developer in the last couple weeks, and hope to move another to the team in the next few weeks.
If you PROMISE not to hold me to it... I'd GUESS that you'll have good, stable build within two months that performs well on core behaviors, like reading, searching, and the Passage Guide. I'd [WILD GUESS] say we're six months from "most people can't tell the difference" between Mac/Windows functionality.
Feel free to post your priorities here. We're basically working library, reading, searching, Passage Guide, Exegetical Guide, Bible Word Study Guide, tool windows (Information, Power Lookup, Copy Bible Verses, Explorer, Cited By,...) , etc. in that order. When we hit a weird platform-specific bug that won't affect everyone (problems with Syriac text display, for example) we're putting it aside to return to later. (In the hopes that the platform may have a fix for it by the time we get back to it.)
-- Bob
Thanks Bob, this is the kind of information I was seeking.
Just out of curiosity, where does the home page functionality fit into that schedule?
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I am sure we are all grateful for this offering. I hope it gives a bit of peace to enable the maximum effort on rollout with minimum fire-fighting. Thank you Bob - just keep your neck covered up!
I understand that real Mac programmers of the caliber needed here are not as easy to find as those of the PC platform.
So, a smaller pool - and though many might be very smart, there are just not enough to go round. Congratulations for being able to beef up the team.
Clive
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Interesting. . .I posted a timeline last week that was 2 months to beta then another 4-6 months for GA (May 2010) and a logos staffer responded (politely) that my timelines were probably too long. I didn't think so then and don't know.
If Bob is saying six months then. . .we should plan on 6-9 months - seriously. This is not a knock on him or anyone just recognition that stuff happens in dev. We will get more and more stability over time for sure but we are probably now looking, IMO, at Aug/Sep for gold code with parity.
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If the new product wasn't fully ready for release then why did they announce it and begin selling it. They should have waited till it was fully tested and through development instead of trying to cash in on the Christmas season.
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DennisRMiller said:
If the new product wasn't fully ready for release then why did they announce it and begin selling it. They should have waited till it was fully tested and through development instead of trying to cash in on the Christmas season.
That poor horse has been beaten in multiple threads in practically every Logos forum. Bob has responded, beta testers have responded, and others have responded. I don't mean to be overly harsh, but that question has been answered in depth many times. As these threads usually seem to run through 5+ pages of posts, I won't repeat it all here. I'll give you my condensed version.
Logos released L4 for Windows (Whether that was premature or not is another question). Mac users have a history of complaining (at least some of us do) about the Mac lagging behind the Windows version. My personal feeling was that Logos thought it easier to let us play/work with the Alpha version than to put up with "where's my version" all over again. [:D] Note that I am smiling as I say this.
Personally, I am pleased that Logos released the Alpha to us. We can watch the progress (and it has been impressive), we have feel that we have a part in the development (by testing, submitting bug reports, and posting logs), and we can even have an input in the design of the final product.
I honestly don't intend to insult you or to offend you, but I have read this same question more than twenty times, and L4 has only been out for one month. Surely, this forum needs a better search engine!
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JackCaviness said:DennisRMiller said:
If the new product wasn't fully ready for release then why did they announce it and begin selling it. They should have waited till it was fully tested and through development instead of trying to cash in on the Christmas season.
That poor horse has been beaten in multiple threads in practically every Logos forum. Bob has responded, beta testers have responded, and others have responded. I don't mean to be overly harsh, but that question has been answered in depth many times. As these threads usually seem to run through 5+ pages of posts, I won't repeat it all here. I'll give you my condensed version.
Logos released L4 for Windows (Whether that was premature or not is another question). Mac users have a history of complaining (at least some of us do) about the Mac lagging behind the Windows version. My personal feeling was that Logos thought it easier to let us play/work with the Alpha version than to put up with "where's my version" all over again.
Note that I am smiling as I say this.Personally, I am pleased that Logos released the Alpha to us. We can watch the progress (and it has been impressive), we have feel that we have a part in the development (by testing, submitting bug reports, and posting logs), and we can even have an input in the design of the final product.
I honestly don't intend to insult you or to offend you, but I have read this same question more than twenty times, and L4 has only been out for one month. Surely, this forum needs a better search engine!
Yeah, I agree with Jack. I wasn't being critical that they put the product out, they already explained why they did that. I was just looking for a general timeline for the expected progress.
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David Hilty said:
I was just looking for a general timeline for the expected progress.
I was surprised that Bob gave you as complete answer as he did. I appreciate his input and hope that, six months from now, everyone will remember that he said it was a wild guess. Of course, if we have parity with Windows by then, everyone will hail him as a genius—Well, almost everyone. [8-|]
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JackCaviness said:
I was surprised that Bob gave you as complete answer as he did. I appreciate his input and hope that, six months from now, everyone will remember that he said it was a wild guess. Of course, if we have parity with Windows by then, everyone will hail him as a genius—Well, almost everyone.
Like you i also am surprised that Bob gave a time frame to the question. I hope everyone will remember he said "If you PROMISE not to hold me to it... I'd GUESS ........" and " I'd [WILD GUESS]".
Somehow if history is anything to go by, i pray Logos for their own sake delivers within that time frame.
Ted
Dell, studio XPS 7100, Ram 8GB, 64 - bit Operating System, AMD Phenom(mt) IIX6 1055T Processor 2.80 GHZ
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