Timeframe for full implementation of Logos 4 Mac?

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/47053#Comment_47053

That link is for the Windows version.

Rich DeRuiter

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/47057#Comment_47057

That link is for the Windows version.

AAAAH!

Second time I've done this: not realized I was in foreign territory.

The partial title in the discussion list didn't include "Logos4 Mac," which is clearly in the subject line above.

Sorry. It's Monday, and I haven't had my coffee yet.

Kevin Becker

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/47057#Comment_47057

Logos got burned last time by not being able to meet Mac deadlines. They will be putting out new Alphas ~ every other week as they fix bugs and make improvements.I would guess it will be months until it is ready.

Here's what Bob P. (CEO) had to say in another thread.

http://community.logos.com/forums/p/3274/26285.aspx#26285

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/47061#Comment_47061

Logos got burned last time by not being able to meet Mac deadlines. They will be putting out new Alphas ~ every other week as they fix bugs and make improvements.I would guess it will be months until it is ready.

Here's what Bob P. (CEO) had to say in another thread.

http://community.logos.com/forums/p/3274/26285.aspx#26285

Thanks. I'm not necessarily asking for a "deadline" more like a "guideline". I'd just like to have some idea of how long it will be before we get the product that the Windows users already have.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/47064#Comment_47064

Thanks. I'm not necessarily asking for a "deadline" more like a "guideline". I'd just like to have some idea of how long it will be before we get the product that the Windows users already have.

The answer is still the same no matter how the question is phrased. Logos has given no time frame of any kind. We are out of luck on that front :-)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/47072#Comment_47072

Thanks. I'm not necessarily asking for a "deadline" more like a "guideline". I'd just like to have some idea of how long it will be before we get the product that the Windows users already have.
The answer is still the same no matter how the question is phrased. Logos has given no time frame of any kind. We are out of luck on that front :-)

I've invested in the neighborhood of $2,000 in Logos software. I don't consider, "When we get to it." a reasonable response to your customers.

David Oxtoby

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/47080#Comment_47080

to be fair to Logos, you've invested in the digital resources, and not the software, since there giving that away free, you can gain access to your resources via either L3 on PC (via Fusion etc) or Mac L1, or Mac L4A, so i think we're pretty well catered for, yes i'd love to have the full PC L4 functionality, but i'm pretty happy with how things are looking up for now.

David O.

Thanks. I'm not necessarily asking for a "deadline" more like a "guideline". I'd just like to have some idea of how long it will be before we get the product that the Windows users already have.
The answer is still the same no matter how the question is phrased. Logos has given no time frame of any kind. We are out of luck on that front :-)

I've invested in the neighborhood of $2,000 in Logos software. I don't consider, "When we get to it." a reasonable response to your customers.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/47085#Comment_47085

David, one of the final obstacles for me to move to a Mac was the Logos announcement that they had come out with a Mac version. Here I am a year later without what I would consider a reasonable alternative to what I had on my PC. I have no desire to run parallels or boot camp on my Mac. The reason I bought a Mac is so I could be done dealing with lousy Microsoft OS. But I'm not able to use one of my most used resources prior to the switch. That's gotten a little frustrating to me. I just feel like Logos has really let it's Mac users down to this point.

Ted Hans

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/47101#Comment_47101

David, one of the final obstacles for me to move to a Mac was the Logos announcement that they had come out with a Mac version. Here I am a year later without what I would consider a reasonable alternative to what I had on my PC. I have no desire to run parallels or boot camp on my Mac. The reason I bought a Mac is so I could be done dealing with lousy Microsoft OS. But I'm not able to use one of my most used resources prior to the switch. That's gotten a little frustrating to me. I just feel like Logos has really let it's Mac users down to this point.

With your comments( in this thread) above though justified, how can Logos give "guidelines" or "deadlines"? More frustration, more disappointment if it does not materialize within the specified time frame. Please be patient, the truth is no one knows.

Ted

David Oxtoby

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/47101#Comment_47101

David, one of the final obstacles for me to move to a Mac was the Logos announcement that they had come out with a Mac version. Here I am a year later without what I would consider a reasonable alternative to what I had on my PC. I have no desire to run parallels or boot camp on my Mac. The reason I bought a Mac is so I could be done dealing with lousy Microsoft OS. But I'm not able to use one of my most used resources prior to the switch. That's gotten a little frustrating to me. I just feel like Logos has really let it's Mac users down to this point.

i do share your frustration, since i'd much rather not keep running Fusion or BootCamp, and yes the Mac version is a poor cousin in contrast, but i guess i'm just delighted that this conversion is well under way, the Alpha 5 version is actually pretty usable and stable at the moment. I guess i'm probably a lot more lenient since in my past life i was a systems analyst and programmer, and it looks like L4 is such a huge project, and bring the Mac into the supported platforms is such a huge undertaking, so hats of to them. Your right about setting expectations and then not meeting them, always a tricky task when you have a Sales Team and a Development Team, who normally have very different objectives.

I maybe wouldn't let the delay on a full-on Mac client stop your move to the Mac platform though since it's such a breath of fresh air in contrast to the Windows platform, i moved over about 2 years ago and love having a machine i can just use to get a job done, rather than constantly tweak and fix. I do still keep a small Tablet PC for reading Logos books, but Mac is my prefered platform.

David

Wes Saad

Are we talking weeks or months to complete this?

Months, certainly, but usability will increase with each new build. My rough guestimate based on nothing but my own ignorance: a much better, usable version within two months (still alpha, not a beta yet), more or less fully functional within 8 months or so, possibly still in beta but pretty close to the final thing.

One way or another, in two months I'm sure this post will come back to haunt me.

Jerry Walker

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/47124#Comment_47124

a much better, usable version within two months (still alpha, not a beta yet), more or less fully functional within 8 months or so, possibly still in beta but pretty close to the final thing.

Man I sure hope you are wrong!!!! lol!!! I hope its more like 6 months final release... I hope thats more like it!!!! Just my prayer for it....

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/47060#Comment_47060

Second time I've done this: not realized I was in foreign territory.

Enemy? Who us? Why, we haven't shot a Windows user in weeks. [H]

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/47080#Comment_47080

I don't consider, "When we get to it." a reasonable response to your customers.

I don't believe that the hard work being done by the Mac Development Team should be classed as "When we get to it." Since I have considerably more invested in Logos Mac than you do, I feel free to make this comment.

As one who has been in this camp since 2005 (and who was formerly the loudest complainer), I am encouraged by the progress I have seen in the last few weeks. Sure we would like to know dates, but I can understand the reluctance. Software development is even more unpredictable than kitchen remodeling, and Logos has been burned with date setting already. I think they would be foolish to make a prediction now.

Having said that, I was almost foolish enough to make one myself. [:D]

Rich DeRuiter

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/47170#Comment_47170

Enemy? Who us? Why, we haven't shot a Windows user in weeks

No not the enemy, just foreigners. A bit like trying to do something 'American' in Canada. I just ended up putting a 30.48 centimeters unit of measurement in my mouth.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/47181#Comment_47181

Actually you showed the questioner that the Windows version has some catching up to do also. [H]

Bob Pritchett

As soon as possible! :-)

It's still very hard to predict when the Mac port will be at feature parity with Windows, especially since the Windows version keeps improving in parallel.

But we don't have to duplicate the features, just code the UI layer. For some features this is trivial, and one bit of UI coding "lights up" many things at once. In other features, the UI is the big part, and has to be largely redone.

The big unknown is "platform issues". There are different performance bottlenecks (and bugs) in Mono than in Microsoft's .NET, and we're still finding them. Some we fix, some we work around, and some we hope the Mono team will fix once we report it with a test case.

Overall, though, progress is good, and we're even beefing up the team. We added a developer in the last couple weeks, and hope to move another to the team in the next few weeks.

If you PROMISE not to hold me to it... I'd GUESS that you'll have good, stable build within two months that performs well on core behaviors, like reading, searching, and the Passage Guide. I'd [WILD GUESS] say we're six months from "most people can't tell the difference" between Mac/Windows functionality.

Feel free to post your priorities here. We're basically working library, reading, searching, Passage Guide, Exegetical Guide, Bible Word Study Guide, tool windows (Information, Power Lookup, Copy Bible Verses, Explorer, Cited By,...) , etc. in that order. When we hit a weird platform-specific bug that won't affect everyone (problems with Syriac text display, for example) we're putting it aside to return to later. (In the hopes that the platform may have a fix for it by the time we get back to it.)

-- Bob

Jason Prince

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/47393#Comment_47393

Thanks Bob. 2010 looks like everything will be done which works for me.

I'll continue to use 3 until it gets better

Peter Gott

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/47393#Comment_47393

Hi,

The question I have that I can't seem to find an answer for is if I get logos 4 now, will I receive the finished Mac version of the software when it is done? Or is it limited to the Alpha or Beta?

Thanks

Damian McGrath

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/47445#Comment_47445

The question I have that I can't seem to find an answer for is if I get logos 4 now, will I receive the finished Mac version of the software when it is done? Or is it limited to the Alpha or Beta?

You will have access to the v4 for Mac engine... This engine is now free for the Mac, so you will have access to it when it is finished.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/47445#Comment_47445

Hi,

The question I have that I can't seem to find an answer for is if I get logos 4 now, will I receive the finished Mac version of the software when it is done? Or is it limited to the Alpha or Beta?

Thanks

You also get a full license for the Windows version, which is operational—although not completed—even now. I don't understand why you cannot find an answer to your question since it has received wide publicity and has been discussed multiple times on this forum.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/47393#Comment_47393

As soon as possible! :-)

It's still very hard to predict when the Mac port will be at feature parity with Windows, especially since the Windows version keeps improving in parallel.

But we don't have to duplicate the features, just code the UI layer. For some features this is trivial, and one bit of UI coding "lights up" many things at once. In other features, the UI is the big part, and has to be largely redone.

The big unknown is "platform issues". There are different performance bottlenecks (and bugs) in Mono than in Microsoft's .NET, and we're still finding them. Some we fix, some we work around, and some we hope the Mono team will fix once we report it with a test case.

Overall, though, progress is good, and we're even beefing up the team. We added a developer in the last couple weeks, and hope to move another to the team in the next few weeks.

If you PROMISE not to hold me to it... I'd GUESS that you'll have good, stable build within two months that performs well on core behaviors, like reading, searching, and the Passage Guide. I'd [WILD GUESS] say we're six months from "most people can't tell the difference" between Mac/Windows functionality.

Feel free to post your priorities here. We're basically working library, reading, searching, Passage Guide, Exegetical Guide, Bible Word Study Guide, tool windows (Information, Power Lookup, Copy Bible Verses, Explorer, Cited By,...) , etc. in that order. When we hit a weird platform-specific bug that won't affect everyone (problems with Syriac text display, for example) we're putting it aside to return to later. (In the hopes that the platform may have a fix for it by the time we get back to it.)

-- Bob

Thanks Bob, this is the kind of information I was seeking.

Just out of curiosity, where does the home page functionality fit into that schedule?

Clive Walters

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/47393#Comment_47393

I am sure we are all grateful for this offering. I hope it gives a bit of peace to enable the maximum effort on rollout with minimum fire-fighting. Thank you Bob - just keep your neck covered up!

I understand that real Mac programmers of the caliber needed here are not as easy to find as those of the PC platform.

So, a smaller pool - and though many might be very smart, there are just not enough to go round. Congratulations for being able to beef up the team.

Clive

Adam Crafton

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/47393#Comment_47393

Interesting. . .I posted a timeline last week that was 2 months to beta then another 4-6 months for GA (May 2010) and a logos staffer responded (politely) that my timelines were probably too long. I didn't think so then and don't know.

If Bob is saying six months then. . .we should plan on 6-9 months - seriously. This is not a knock on him or anyone just recognition that stuff happens in dev. We will get more and more stability over time for sure but we are probably now looking, IMO, at Aug/Sep for gold code with parity.

Dennis Miller

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/47061#Comment_47061

If the new product wasn't fully ready for release then why did they announce it and begin selling it. They should have waited till it was fully tested and through development instead of trying to cash in on the Christmas season.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/48735#Comment_48735

If the new product wasn't fully ready for release then why did they announce it and begin selling it. They should have waited till it was fully tested and through development instead of trying to cash in on the Christmas season.

That poor horse has been beaten in multiple threads in practically every Logos forum. Bob has responded, beta testers have responded, and others have responded. I don't mean to be overly harsh, but that question has been answered in depth many times. As these threads usually seem to run through 5+ pages of posts, I won't repeat it all here. I'll give you my condensed version.

Logos released L4 for Windows (Whether that was premature or not is another question). Mac users have a history of complaining (at least some of us do) about the Mac lagging behind the Windows version. My personal feeling was that Logos thought it easier to let us play/work with the Alpha version than to put up with "where's my version" all over again. [:D] Note that I am smiling as I say this.

Personally, I am pleased that Logos released the Alpha to us. We can watch the progress (and it has been impressive), we have feel that we have a part in the development (by testing, submitting bug reports, and posting logs), and we can even have an input in the design of the final product.

I honestly don't intend to insult you or to offend you, but I have read this same question more than twenty times, and L4 has only been out for one month. Surely, this forum needs a better search engine!

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/48741#Comment_48741

If the new product wasn't fully ready for release then why did they announce it and begin selling it. They should have waited till it was fully tested and through development instead of trying to cash in on the Christmas season.

That poor horse has been beaten in multiple threads in practically every Logos forum. Bob has responded, beta testers have responded, and others have responded. I don't mean to be overly harsh, but that question has been answered in depth many times. As these threads usually seem to run through 5+ pages of posts, I won't repeat it all here. I'll give you my condensed version.

Logos released L4 for Windows (Whether that was premature or not is another question). Mac users have a history of complaining (at least some of us do) about the Mac lagging behind the Windows version. My personal feeling was that Logos thought it easier to let us play/work with the Alpha version than to put up with "where's my version" all over again. Note that I am smiling as I say this.

Personally, I am pleased that Logos released the Alpha to us. We can watch the progress (and it has been impressive), we have feel that we have a part in the development (by testing, submitting bug reports, and posting logs), and we can even have an input in the design of the final product.

I honestly don't intend to insult you or to offend you, but I have read this same question more than twenty times, and L4 has only been out for one month. Surely, this forum needs a better search engine!

Yeah, I agree with Jack. I wasn't being critical that they put the product out, they already explained why they did that. I was just looking for a general timeline for the expected progress.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/48874#Comment_48874

I was just looking for a general timeline for the expected progress.

I was surprised that Bob gave you as complete answer as he did. I appreciate his input and hope that, six months from now, everyone will remember that he said it was a wild guess. Of course, if we have parity with Windows by then, everyone will hail him as a genius—Well, almost everyone. [8-|]

Ted Hans

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/48880#Comment_48880

I was surprised that Bob gave you as complete answer as he did. I appreciate his input and hope that, six months from now, everyone will remember that he said it was a wild guess. Of course, if we have parity with Windows by then, everyone will hail him as a genius—Well, almost everyone.

Like you i also am surprised that Bob gave a time frame to the question. I hope everyone will remember he said "If you PROMISE not to hold me to it... I'd GUESS ........" and " I'd [WILD GUESS]".

Somehow if history is anything to go by, i pray Logos for their own sake delivers within that time frame.

Ted

Franz Lippi

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/47393#Comment_47393

As a former electronic engeneer who wrote some SW I can see the pinch Logos is in.

As for priorities - what I REALLY miss is that I can read my Logos3 notes, sermon files and personal books in Logos4!
Transferring user created information into a new version should be a thing to consider before a new version gets out, we are talking about xxx work hours

If that not possible then there should be way that if you bought Logos4 (Platin in my case) that new these resources should be available in Logos 1.2.2 Mac (there was a statement in the Logos website that indicated that) and Logos 3 Win.

--Franz

Luuk Dondorp

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/48899#Comment_48899

You can get most of your new resources in the L3 format lbxlls: ftp://ftp.logos.com/lbxbooks/

There you will find the resources from the basepackage Platina and lower.

Download the specific file(s) and put them in your resoures folder. Synchronise your licences and restart Logos for Mac 1.2.2

Easy and very Logos.

Jeremy Hill

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/48924#Comment_48924

Umm, why would they sell me an upgrade when it's not finished. Am I missing something. I spoke to a guy over the phone, and he sold me on the upgrade, then I start using it, and it's an Alpha version. I can't use hardly anything I need.

Did I miss something, or is it possible that it's installed wrong? I mean I can't do word by word greek, I can't figure out how to even use the 4 alpha version. I wouldn' care if I didn't pay 164.00 to upgrade.

Does anyone have any insight?

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/48927#Comment_48927

Jeremy,

I cannot speak to your conversation, but here is what I can tell you.

Your upgrade entitles you to use the L4 windows version which is complete and can be run on Fusion on your Mac. All work in the windows L4 will sync. with your mac L4 so no work or time will be lost as the Mac is fully developed.

You can also download and use the Mac 1.2.2 (if you add it to your shopping cart the price comes up as $0). You can do study in this native Mac version.

Blessings,

Joe

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/47393#Comment_47393

Thanks Bob - you asked for people to post priorities. Here are mine, and I think I speak for many (I'm a pastor / teacher):

- macros so I can type a verse in Word for Mac, and right click to copy the text of that verse without all the footnotes etc - REAL handy for sermons, handouts, papers etc

- study notes - I have several hundred in my Windows version, but switched to Mac and ??? HELP! I love my Mac, and Logos' goal of feature parity has me holding on here. Study notes please!

Even if only these 2 issues were available for Mac users (and I'm sure you're already aware of this) I think they are common and simple enough to get Logos a lot of mileage in the Mac camp. Even my old free program had these basic features! I've got hours of study that I can't access!

Hope this comes across ok, we really appreciate all you do, Andrew

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/50036#Comment_50036

- macros so I can type a verse in Word for Mac

My preference is Pages pleas. Mac software should focus on Mac software not windows software ported for Mac.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/50140#Comment_50140

if these features worked for pages, i'd happily switch to accommodate logos. no prob there joe.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/50141#Comment_50141

Good to know Andrew. Since Pages '09 works with EndNote X, I dumped MS Word and would prefer not to go back :-)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/50149#Comment_50149

Endnote X? is this a program that has promise for Logos integration, possibly enabling some of the features I'm hoping for?

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/50229#Comment_50229

Andrew, do you have EndNote? What features are you hoping for?

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/50237#Comment_50237

Meantime, maybe you should check out this post

http://community.logos.com/forums/p/6462/50103.aspx#50103

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/50246#Comment_50246

i do not have endnote, but that feature looks v nice. hopefully logos will provide something similar soon. i don't need bibliographies for sermons (don't know why, but no one in my church has ever asked, strange I know...)

I miss 2 things from the windows version: 1) being able to type a reference ("Gen 1.1"), then clicking on the reference and being able to paste the text from it into a word / pages document. Right now I have to copy and paste and delete footnotes of cross refs etc. the macros for windows / Word are truly spectacular.

2) i would like to have access to my old study notes. i have hundreds of quotes, illustrations, paragraphs copied from books etc inserted all over the scripture from my own devotional / study / reading, and have amassed quite a resource for myself. But alas, in logos for mac, it's not available - yet.

thanks for the correspondence, any insights / comments / helps welcome. Andrew

ps. i have L4, but am using L3 for now until L4 is officially released.

Dennis Miller

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/48735#Comment_48735

OK, I'm done complaining and went ahead with the painful process of downloading Logos for PC and running it through VMware fusion on my iMac. Works fine with only a little performance hit due to the resources I've allotted to the VM. I will stay content to operate this way and give grace to the logos Mac development team as they continue to refine and complete the product. I downloaded the Accordance 8 demo and looked at it and though it is very appealing I have too much already invested in Logos to switch now. Maybe Logos could hire some of their programmers to help complete the Mac version of Logos 4 since they've had experience at it for several years now and have a pretty nice product to show for it.

Kevin Becker

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/52478#Comment_52478

OK, I'm done complaining and went ahead with the painful process of downloading Logos for PC and running it through VMware fusion on my iMac. Works fine with only a little performance hit due to the resources I've allotted to the VM. I will stay content to operate this way and give grace to the logos Mac development team as they continue to refine and complete the product. I downloaded the Accordance 8 demo and looked at it and though it is very appealing I have too much already invested in Logos to switch now. Maybe Logos could hire some of their programmers to help complete the Mac version of Logos 4 since they've had experience at it for several years now and have a pretty nice product to show for it.

Bob P commented elsewhere that one of the Windows guys had transferred over to the Mac team to help get it done faster. I can't find it right now, but I do remember it.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/52527#Comment_52527

OK, I'm done complaining and went ahead with the painful process of downloading Logos for PC and running it through VMware fusion on my iMac. Works fine with only a little performance hit due to the resources I've allotted to the VM. I will stay content to operate this way and give grace to the logos Mac development team as they continue to refine and complete the product. I downloaded the Accordance 8 demo and looked at it and though it is very appealing I have too much already invested in Logos to switch now. Maybe Logos could hire some of their programmers to help complete the Mac version of Logos 4 since they've had experience at it for several years now and have a pretty nice product to show for it.

Bob P commented elsewhere that one of the Windows guys had transferred over to the Mac team to help get it done faster. I can't find it right now, but I do remember it.

Nooooooo!!!!! A Windows guy will ruin it. [;)]

Kevin Becker

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/52541#Comment_52541

Bob also said that the "Windows guy" was a Mac guy but had gone over to the Windows side to feed his family. i.e. a Windows job was all he could find.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/52557#Comment_52557

Bob also said that the "Windows guy" was a Mac guy but had gone over to the Windows side to feed his family. i.e. a Windows job was all he could find.

A commentary on the sad state of the economy. [:D] A noble Mac expert forced into shameful employment to feed his family. [8-|]

Bryan Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/52478#Comment_52478

Dennis, I'm using A6 now. After the last update I believe I could use it for a study. It's slow but looking very promising.