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Posts 285
Luigi Sam | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 31 2013 7:58 PM

Room4more:

Well, sorry to say this will never happen, YET, if you chose BW the same scenario would be there as well, the same can be said for Wordsearch, Olive tree, etc., etc.

They appeal to the masses, which divy up to individuals, each having their own theological differences. Yet we co-exist.

have said that - lets dance......

 

Hi, you say we co-exist, but shockingly the Catholics aren't happy with this ( ie they now have Verbum ) http://www.logos.com/catholic#compare

which is Logos rebadged, for Catholics. 

 

This is not co-existing.  This is separation.   


No other mainstream bible software has a Catholic rebadged version of thier software to suit one denomination except Logos with Verbum.

 

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 31 2013 8:08 PM

Luigi Sam:
EDIT: (also i get an Access Denied message when I click on the link you gave :)

Interesting - I do as well

An excerpt of the discussion:

Josh:

Mark Stevens:

Joshua Garcia:

MJ. Smith:

For those looking for Catholic resources, the author is Dominican.

I find this post to be quite curious. How does Spicq's theological bias show up in this work?

How could it not? This is true of all of us I would of thought. Smile

 

A very good resource!

I see lexicons basically as commentaries on words, especially the TLNT. The few screenshots I saw of this resource were quite interesting. However, I wonder if anyone would be able to use this resource without even noticing it has a Catholic flavor. I ask this only because this seems to be a popular resource even among Protestants.

 

As for the rest, I don't believe I can convince you why it does not work. The one way I believe would convince you is to take the top 200 denominations in America. Study any statements of faith, creeds, distinctives, positions papers etc. associated with them. Now read the top selling 500 theological books from 1960. Assign them to the most likely denominational category. Then I think you will understand what I am trying to say.

To put it more concretely, I find it more useful to know that someone was a member of the Jesus Seminar or Renovare than to know their denomination. The foundational studies in liturgical theology require the reading of Anglican, Lutheran, Russian Orthodox, Byzantine Catholic and German Catholic sources (Dix, Ranshaw, Schmemann, name escapes me, Jungmann). One of my all-time favorites on the Desert Fathers is somewhere in the mainstream Protestant tradition (Bondi). One of the best Catholic narrative theologians isn't Catholic (Hauerwas). The best introductions to spiritual discipline and prayer are written by a Quaker (Foster).

 

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 285
Luigi Sam | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 31 2013 8:46 PM

MJ. Smith:
As for the rest, I don't believe I can convince you why it does not work. The one way I believe would convince you is to take the top 200 denominations in America. Study any statements of faith, creeds, distinctives, positions papers etc. associated with them. Now read the top selling 500 theological books from 1960. Assign them to the most likely denominational category. Then I think you will understand what I am trying to say.

 

but we do agree that broad categories would be useful? 

I believe you posted "I find that 4-5 collections handles this quite nicely - and that denomination is too low a criteria, larger blocks work better e.g. Mainstream Protestant, Pentecostal ..."

 

I would be happy with this at the very least.

 

as for the complexity of fine categories,

  • I respect what you are saying, and your experience. I respect your abilities, and I am not saying this is an issue.and I respect the points of conflict that make it a task that seems impractical.
  • I dont see it as a priority,
  •  I think it is a time consuming, and progressive task that might require better tools to plan and implement then just using existing logos user features..

All Im saying is that it is possible provided that each conflict can have a reasonable generalization solution. Ie generalization can be used for the fine category( ie fine but not too fine :), and that people appreciate that denominational categories dont necessarily mean every single church in that denomination or every singe person in that denomination believes what that resource says. In this sense I realize it is not possible to get a precise micro-fine category.  of course I realize there are some works may have exceptions that require a misc or N/A or disputed, or unknown entry.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 31 2013 8:53 PM

Luigi Sam, you need to ask Bob P. why Verbum was created. You are speculating without foundation leading to a false conclusion.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 1649
Room4more | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 1 2013 5:44 AM

Luigi Sam:

Hi, you say we co-exist, but shockingly the Catholics aren't happy with this ( ie they now have Verbum ) http://www.logos.com/catholic#compare

which is Logos rebadged, for Catholics.   

This is not co-existing.  This is separation.   


No other mainstream bible software has a Catholic rebadged version of thier software to suit one denomination except Logos with Verbum.

But I am not catholic so I really don’t care. I am concerned about what takes up my hdd and if I can use it. Remember ‘junk’ and ‘clutter’…. 

And we do co-exist, we have for century’s;

How do you know for certain that you ARE right and that your Theology is the correct one?

 

DISCLAIMER: What you do on YOUR computer is your doing.

Posts 2844
David Ames | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 1 2013 7:59 AM

Luigi Sam:

ie: Logos Repackaged for Catholics (Verbum) is being advertised by Logos.   ( this advertising cost is spread accross all Logos products )

to even this up Logos should spend advertising costs on a Protestant Library too.

Otherwise Protestants are paying for advertising costs of the Catholic version of Logos.

 

And on your other topic of Labels.   Question:  You are concerned on the cost of advertising – so who will pay for labeling? 

Who pays for the research to select the correct label for each resource?  Will some resources need more then one label?  

[New resources will just see a higher price to pay for the labeling]

[BUT there are now some 20,000 resources [or so] - who pays  for labeling them - they have already been paid for [sold]?]

Who pays for the programming to attach those labels? 

Who pays for the programming to ask us what label set we wish to see and then assure that we only see the list we have selected?

And what will be our recourse if a resource is miss labeled? 

And what do we do with a resource that 80% of Protestants like [that is buy it] and 20% see as heresy [that is burn it]?   [[and I have seen situations where the members of a single church cannot agree on a given book]

Posts 1721
LogosEmployee
Bob Pritchett | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 1 2013 9:02 AM

I've been asked to step in and post something here.... so:

We're not attaching warning or even denominational labels to our books. Our books are already extensively labeled: Title, description, author, publisher, etc.

Each of these labels, while never as precise as some people may want, is a useful indication of the book's content and slant. "Publisher" is going to do a good job of telling you 'what denomination/perspective will find this acceptable,' and when the publisher is too broad or unknown, you still have the author's name you can look up.

We've found that almost every book has some acceptance from people across a wide denominational perspective, and almost any book can be despised/mistrusted by people in the same denomination.

Verbum was created for practical reasons in response to feedback from both Catholic and protestant users. We may or may not segment other content based on market size and demand. But even these segments cross lines -- there are books that are included in both the Logos and Verbum base packages. And users of each who want resources sold with the other.

-- Bob

Posts 579
Andrew Baguley | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 1 2013 9:29 AM

Bob Pritchett:

We're not attaching warning or even denominational labels to our books. Our books are already extensively labeled: Title, description, author, publisher, etc.

Thanks for stepping in, Bob.  I'm not quite sure I understand this though.  Are you saying that you will not attach labels?  Surely the website already attaches labels according to "Christian Group" to some resources?  Personally, I like having this information and would like this information to be available in Logos.

It seems that often this kind of label can be applied non-controversially and I think that in these cases it can be helpful.  I suggested something similar here: http://community.logos.com/forums/p/54491/396432.aspx#396432, including an approach that many people of different persuasions seemed to be comfortable with.  I'd value your comments regarding why it would be unhelpful, remembering that I am not suggesting that all resources are labelled.  My basic distinction is that authors and publishers should self-define. 

Some people might use these labels to tell them what to avoid reading, or as warning labels, and this would keep them happy, but I would be more likely to be looking for an Anglican, Roman Catholic, Southern Baptist... perspective on a particular issue, or the way that a particular group uses a particular word or phrase.  Logos can be really useful to find this information, but it would be even more so if we could simply say group:Mormon, for example, as part of our search.  As it is, we need user-created collections and then to search those collections (see link above), which is much more cumbersome for each individual user.

Most of us do not have a detailed understanding of the background, denomination, presuppositions, etc. that publishers have, never mind authors, given the wide range of resources available in Logos, so it would be useful if Logos could help to provide that information within the program, and not just on the website.

Again, thanks for responding.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 1 2013 12:47 PM

Bob Pritchett:
I've been asked to step in and post something here.... so:

Thank you - I'll drop out now.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 236
Michael March | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 1 2013 12:54 PM

Andrew Baguley:

Bob Pritchett:

We're not attaching warning or even denominational labels to our books. Our books are already extensively labeled: Title, description, author, publisher, etc.

Thanks for stepping in, Bob.  I'm not quite sure I understand this though.  Are you saying that you will not attach labels?

Well usually I'm too late and too uninformed to be of much help, but I got this one.

Is he saying Logos will not attach labels?  Yes. That's what he's saying.  He's saying that the books are already extensively labeled: Title, description, author, publisher, etc.  I'm pretty sure that's what he's saying. 

Windows PC - Android Phone - Surface Pro 4

Posts 1649
Room4more | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 1 2013 1:02 PM

Michael March:

Andrew Baguley:

Bob Pritchett:

We're not attaching warning or even denominational labels to our books. Our books are already extensively labeled: Title, description, author, publisher, etc.

Thanks for stepping in, Bob.  I'm not quite sure I understand this though.  Are you saying that you will not attach labels?

Well usually I'm too late and too uninformed to be of much help, but I got this one.

Is he saying Logos will not attach labels?  Yes. That's what he's saying.  He's saying that the books are already extensively labeled: Title, description, author, publisher, etc.  I'm pretty sure that's what he's saying. 

So, Are they or are they NOT labeled? are we talking the same definitional language here.....

DISCLAIMER: What you do on YOUR computer is your doing.

Posts 236
Michael March | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 1 2013 1:18 PM

Room4more:
So, Are they or are they NOT labeled? are we talking the same definitional language here....

Perhaps we are not speaking of the same thing (and my post was a bit on the flippant side, I apologize).  

When he says they are labelled, I believe he's talking about title, description, author, publisher, etc. from which you can find out all you need to know about a book.

For instance, I got an email from logos on a releasing title on a commentary that I thought I might be interested in.  I looked at the description which gave some detail about the resource, but it was still unclear to me from whence the author came and consequently whether I wanted to shell out that much money (most descriptions ARE designed to sell the product, after all).  So I did a search on the internet for more information on the book and the author and was able to determine that while it might be good, it was too pricey for me given the particular theological persuasion of the author.  So I passed.  I was able to do enough research on my own to determine whether or not the book suited me without being told directly whose denomination and/or theological tradition the author came from.  Even though he was not from my tradition, I likely would have bought it anyway except Logos wanted too much money for me.  

On the other hand, I did buy the second verbum collection from the top (can't remember the name) because I wanted the resources.  I am a Presbyterian but I appreciate good scholarship from RC sources as well as many other traditions.  In the end, I can decide for myself whether a particular book is worth the money if given the title, the description, the author, the publisher, and the internet.

Does that help?

Windows PC - Android Phone - Surface Pro 4

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 1 2013 1:34 PM

Room4more:
So, Are they or are they NOT labeled? are we talking the same definitional language here.....

What's the meaning of the word "is"?  Wink

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

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Lynden Williams | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 1 2013 1:57 PM

Thanks for chiming in Bob, and congratulate on your 1,000 post. Keep it up and soon you will catch Dave up. Big Smile

Lynden Williams Communications

Posts 1649
Room4more | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 1 2013 2:19 PM

George Somsel:

Room4more:
So, Are they or are they NOT labeled? are we talking the same definitional language here.....

What's the meaning of the word "is"?  Wink

opposite of "isn't"......

DISCLAIMER: What you do on YOUR computer is your doing.

Posts 8967
RIP
Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 1 2013 2:38 PM

Michael March:
I appreciate good scholarship from RC sources as well as many other traditions.  In the end, I can decide for myself whether a particular book is worth the money

What do we have to do to get Archbishop Fulton J Sheen in Logos?  Warning label or no, I would have Sheen's works prioritized. Geeked

Logos 7 Collectors Edition

Posts 236
Michael March | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 1 2013 2:47 PM

+1 on Fulton Sheen.  The works.

Windows PC - Android Phone - Surface Pro 4

Posts 285
Luigi Sam | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 1 2013 10:24 PM

Hi Bob,

I realize that if you take this issue to heart it may put you in a spiritual dilemma. I sympathize with you because if this issue does strike a spiritual nerve, then it might require resolutions that you might find hard to carry out.  All I can do is reply in sincerity, with this appeal in summary.

I am not condemning you if you do or ever have made business decisions which might be such that your conscience convicts you about it.

I acknowledge your efforts as a Christian trying to run a fair business with integrity, that just happens to be a Christian related software business that is trying to be non-denominational.

People will get behind you and support you if you have to make business decisions which are costly in order to do what is right. Assuredly, even if you had to start from scratch you'd be better off not ignoring the prompts that (if) God puts on your conscience regarding dicey justification of the issues i am raising (ie justifiable in your mind so long as you don't think about it for too long) or any other issues that ( or if/when) God raises with you.

 

Regards.

 

Bob Pritchett:
Each of these labels, while never as precise as some people may want, is a useful indication of the book's content and slant. "Publisher" is going to do a good job of telling you 'what denomination/perspective will find this acceptable,' and when the publisher is too broad or unknown, you still have the author's name you can look up.

 

  • try filtering your search results by manually checking each books title page.   ( i would like to filter my results - isn't this what software is for - doing research which is too laborious / time costly / computationally impossible to do by hand? )

 

Bob Pritchett:
Verbum was created for practical reasons in response to feedback from both Catholic and protestant users

do Protestant users get to advertise Logos as Protestant like Catholics get to do for Verbum?

 

THE PROBLEM:

 

People in this thread continually and on purpose are trying to down play this - changing the subject to "but their are libraries for other denominations"

 

 

The ORIGINAL Logos Model IS Non-denominational.

IE all denominations are treated the same. Verbum breaks this model.

 

 

Im not arguing that there should be no catholic versions of base packages.

I am arguing:

1. only catholics get to create their own versions of base packages

2. only catholics get to rebrand logos to Verbum . (and advertise it as "logos for Catholics")

 


THE SOLUTION (SUGGESTIONS)

 

Solution Proposal 1:

  • offer base packages by Denomination ( of which only a “catholic” advertised one has been made at the moment TBA for others)

  • remove Verbum advertising and concept. Which is catholic re-badge of a non-denominational software product.

 

 

Solution Proposal 2:

 

Posts 33
Andrew Blye | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 1 2013 10:59 PM

Yes, please put warning labels on all Calvinist books, because as an Armenian, I just can't handle any theology that differs from my own. :/ LOL

Posts 285
Luigi Sam | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 1 2013 11:14 PM

Andrew Blye:

Yes, please put warning labels on all Calvinist books, because as an Armenian, I just can't handle any theology that differs from my own. :/ LOL

Hi Andrew,

you response might be better aimed at my last post in http://community.logos.com/forums/p/65465/458250.aspx#458250 which explains my goal as such and shows your post as not applicable ( and your post was not even applicable to the warning label reasons at the start if this Thread either btw. ).

Research involves progressively expanding into new areas in an orderly fashion.

Learning involves progressively expanding into new areas in an orderly fashion.

Expanding into new topics, and mastering the knowledge of a topic that they remain a babe therein, and employing new methods to research a topic like progressively comparing what other denominations think, learning to be impartial to learning a topic ( which is maturity by experience of judging a case and coming to a conclusion based on the evidence alone and having the ability to reduce the case down to the facts to get that conclusion.) Not to mention the techniques of reasoning out a case that get better with time and experience that learning a topic in an impartial manner brings.)    However Research should be orderly, and on topics that God either puts on the heart immediately, and those topics which God puts on our heart through systematic reading of the Bible. and the depth a progressively growing Christian learns should be the amount that he is able to learn, regardless of if he has to be in a state of not having the answer fully and maturely answered. God will prompt the Christian when more searching is needed, and perhaps some questions will only be answered after reading the whole bible through two or three times. ( you aren't mature, and you haven't mastered a topic until you undertake research. ) And the only thing a pastor, or church or the like can do is guide the child to be as mature as they can.  They are not there to say "they dont need maturity", and they are not there to deny the Christian of food for the topic God has placed on them to learn about, and you cant scare people away by saying " but it might be dangerous if you learn about that topic ".  No we all hit puberty, and we all mature by fumbling childish life, with guides to best direct us - and by Gods grace we slowly learn by our guides, their proposed techniques to maturing (not techniques to staying in a diaper, nor how to continue sucking the breast for life). Each person is responsible to mature as fully as is possible to stand on their own two feet of maturity in the faith.  Elders are Guides allow us to progressively expand into maturity by equipping us to learn a topic in an orderly fashion by systematic, helpful, and progressive learning ( which includes allowing comparisons to be made between denominations, and finding out why).

 

 

New Christians desire the sincere milk of the word so that they might grow thereby. (the scriptures is a primary source for new Christians)

they progressively get to a stage they can handle the meat of the word.

during both of these stages the 'aids' change to meet the level of research that the Christian is at.

at any stage a Christian might want to compare what the bible says to what my denominations materials say, to what others say depending on the question that is on the mind of the believer.

Recommending rounding down the works to ones of a denomination to appease a gentle mind for a new Christian who is apt to research and equiping them to discern that comparisons can be made based on denomination of any one topic surely doesn't deserve being mocked?

 

I am persuaded that it is a systematic and orderly approach.

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