Warning Label Request:

Room4more said:

So, Are they or are they NOT labeled? are we talking the same definitional language here.....

What's the meaning of the word "is"?  [;)]

George Somsel said:

Room4more said:

So, Are they or are they NOT labeled? are we talking the same definitional language here.....

What's the meaning of the word "is"? 

opposite of "isn't"......

+1 on Fulton Sheen.  The works.

Yes, please put warning labels on all Calvinist books, because as an Armenian, I just can't handle any theology that differs from my own. LOL

Please take no offense. I was merely speaking in jest regarding the absurdity of putting "warning" labels on certain books, as if they are something to be avoided for certain folks.

 Effort at Explanation:

Dear Luigi: The reason some of us get upset by the things you propose is quite simply because they are counter productive.

First, Logos/Verbum is not as different as you think. It's simply a switch that allows the software to use some different tagging to enable use of some different specific resource tools.

I am set up with Logos, I type in "set Verbum to yes" and, my tool set changes. Pretty simple. I can also set it back the other way.

Ok, now here is the part that bothers me and, I think, many others.

People need to be well read Luigi. Gone ( for the most part ) are the days of putting denominational blinders on and knowing nothing Biblically beyond the point of what a particular Pastor brings to the people within denomination.

People need to be well read, people need to study well, people are doing studies at a much higher level and, rate than in times past. There is today, much more information available to the average Bible student than ever before. Lay folk are today reading and studying resources that in times past, only seminarians and pastors with large book budgets had access to.

I have been studying the Biblical text for a long, long time Luigi and, I have to say, I still resent my earliest Teachers depriving me of materials and influence of much of Christianity. One only has so many hours to live and to have a teacher/Pastor deprive students of much of Biblical History/Theology/Christology/Soteriology/Eschatology etc. is just horrible and hateful. ( Many do so, not from ill will, but from Ignorance because they too were deprived of certain things/teachings etc. People do what they do, because they know what they know).

I have a pretty large physical Library Luigi, most of which I keep at the Church, but another large section at home ( mostly comprised of whats been read/studied in the last few years, books get moved back and forth, space is an issue etc.

My Library is open to all, it is there to be used.

Someone will come to me with a book and ask: Is this a good one?

Well, sure I say: However, this one is an Academic book, so it may be difficult reading, or, yes, but the other has some issues here, or there, or this one is very dogmatic about this, or that, or this one was before many of the archeological discoveries we now know about etc. etc.

Even books I don't like, even books that have horrible wrongs in them, usually have something of value as well, even it if that value is to see how things can go horribly wrong, that too is of value. My biggest issue is with "fluff and stuff", books written just to make a buck-smile.

My point is simple, Logos is a Library , with a Library system, some tools like Verbum help us to use some specific resources , thats all.

People need to be well read, people need to read the Patristics, History, Jewish works, lifestyles in history, people need to read the Classics, study Archeology , Look at timelines that don't have things edited out by denominational bent.

To edit out parts of the Jewish /Christian historical story is academically dishonest and is an attempt edit the work of the Holy Spirit, for God has been at work in all of Jewish/Christian history and is today as well.

Luigi: Human beings are the only creatures in all of creation that can hand down information/knowledge generationally, the only creatures that can do this, at all. Thus we have the sciences, we have modern medicine,Surgical procedures, technology, interplanetary exploration, Archeological discoveries , deep sea research, psychology, etc, etc, etc. We are the only creatures created by God than can do these things. We have music and art. Birds may make a wonderful sound outside you windows in the spring, but you will never see them gathered there with music stands and one directing them with a baton to play Mozart. You will never see the lower animals cresting special places to study paintings made hundreds of years ago by their own kind, they just do not have that ability.

We are specially, fearfully and wonderfully made. We have the things I have mentioned because we are special and can hand on knowledge generation by generation, each one building on the work of the past generation. To do so, we must work from success and failure, failure to success. We all stand on the shoulders of those that have gone before us, shoulders that did well, and shoulders that did not do well, but all of it is part of what we have today and who we are today. It is important to be well read, well studied. No Emergency room Dr. has simply studied what other Dr.s have done well-No- They have also studied the failures that went into learning how to do things well, so that lives are saved, where in the past, they were lost. Human's succeeding in things is directly connected to understanding their mistakes, embracing those mistakes to understand them , and moving forward in the process of Learning.

Personal Lessons:

When I was a much younger man, I had a very successful ministry, full of life, lots of money, well respected in the community, people of power and wealth sought me out, it was, in many ways, wonderful. When I spoke, people listened, when they spoke of me, it was with accolades .

But I had more questions, there were things I wanted to understand better and in my quest for those answers I found a very well known Theologian of English decent that took a liking to me and I him.

Long story short, after a few years, I left the Ministry I had behind to study under this man, for him to be my spiritual director. The reason: My denomination didn't like some of the things I was studying, did not like some of my questions and answers to those questions. Again, I was well known in my denomination, an "up and comer ", a mover and shaker". Asked to speak all over the place etc. etc.etc. 

I was misunderstood, reviled, called names not pleasing, no longer sought after, no longer invited, my opinions no longer wanted, I was the disappointment of the community. Yet I knew I was right, I had prayed a lot, this was my path.

Packed up family and off we went.

As I was sitting with this man one morning over coffee I mentioned I did not understand how Monks could be such cowards.

Oh really! he says ( heavy english accent ), please, tell me more. So I explained they left the great commission , they left service, as we worked hard to teach and preach, to care for the least, the lost, the lonely, they just hid from the world and it's problems to care for themselves.

"Bloody well" he says, we will speak more at another time, and off we went about our day.

Next morning he gave me a map with driving instructions and told me I was to go there for a few days, further education he says. It was not a request and- off I went.

You guessed it by now, It was a Monastery !

Aggghhh!

Resentfully, but dutifully, I went in.

My ignorance became apparent to me in less than 48 hours and, the experience has stayed with me to this day and will for the rest of my life- now part of a semi-monastic community. It was life changing .

Another morning, I made a statement about the Mother of our Lord and how Roman Catholic's wrongfully dealt with her.

Oh Really ! he says again ( heavy english accent ), and what pray tell do you base your opinion in? he asks?

I tell him ( knew I was lost at "Oh Really) and he just smiles.

Next morning: I am given the assignment to spend all of my time for the next 30 days researching everything I can find in history and theology on the Blessed Virgin Mary, across all Christian disciplines.

Oh my Lord!

We do not speak of it again till I have done my task.

He asks: What have you learned.

My answer: That I am an ignorant man and quite arrogant about it!

He smiles: Ahh, less so now my young friend, much less so, now.

Here is the point Luigi: There is much to learn, much we do not know , much to understand , great works by incredible christians over thousands of years. God Himself being at work in all of it, the good and the bad, the right, and the wrong. We have to have all of it to be who we are, we stand on the shoulders of all of them, the good and the bad, the right and the wrong. We try pulling those things out, we harm our own balance and, we start being our own god by deciding where the True God was and was not at work. The Old Testament and Prophets teach us this is a commonly made mistake.

He made me start reading the Church Fathers ( Fathers-yuk, old dead people who failed-yuk)

Boy was I surprised! Saint Polycarp blew me away man! St. Justin the Martyr knocked my socks off. ( If you have not read "Dialogue with a Jew" , Man, you have to read this, it's incredible! No theological Library, None of the tools we have, no bible in his knapsack, and just blows it up, it's that good! The first written Apologist in my opinion ).

This great men, some who studied under the Apostles themselves, just blew me away!

Point: My teachers from before had kept a great deal of the Faith from me, willingly by some, through ignorance by others, but no matter how, years of good study's had been stolen from me.

We should not do so, we should encourage everyone to be well read, study all we can, as much as we can, whenever and however we can.

Verbum is just a tool, a switch to better allow us to engage Latin Texts and other resources with specific taggings.

It is not about advocating the Roman Church or any other Church or group, it is about accessing materials, it is about learning, it is about putting ignorance to bed. Logos is not trying to grow the Roman Church, they are providing "all of us" tools we "all" need in order for "all" of us to be better students of what God has been, and is doing.

I "think" this is why some of us get a little irritated by all this, something within us " just knows" , just knows that more fences and labels to keep people at bay is just wrong. Perhaps it is the Holy Spirit that makes us uncomfortable with these things, perhaps it is experience.

As an older man to one who is younger and, who see's a little of my younger self in you, please do not be offended.

I love your passion, understand your idealism , but can honestly say: There is much you have yet to learn and, I am so excited for your journey into learning and seeing the things you have yet to learn and see.

I urge all of the spiritual children under my care to:  read, study, learn, "think" and most of all, in order to do those things well : ask questions, find all the great questions, then the answers will become readily apparent. 

It is apparent to all Luigi that you have a wonderful mind, good soil that can bring forth a great harvest. Thus I have shared  with you that was given to me by my Spiritual Director, though I cannot do so in the same manner.

Find that point where you can see your yourself, as you are, then many things will open to you. Spend your time on this, not on fighting with Logos.

For me, it was finding out I really knew so very little, while thinking I knew so very much., That in my former position of being so well thought of, I had become arrogant in my knowledge, which only served to blind me to my own ignorance.

I am still studying today Luigi and, I can honestly say, after all these many, many years:

What I do not know, is still far greater than what I do know.

All the great questions I have found answer's for, have simply given me the joy of far greater and more wonderful questions.

How logos markets it's products is not one of the great questions of life and, is certainly not a worthy subject for one who is called to study the great Mysteries of God.

Blessings of Grace and Peace Luigi, Blessings of Grace and Peace.

Fr Charles, thank you for the wonderfully written post. You just made my day!! [:D]

Fr. Charles R. Matheny said:

Even books I don't like, even books that have horrible wrongs in them, usually have something of value as well, even it if that value is to see how things can go horribly wrong, that too is of value

I initially vowed to not share in feeding the trolls as they say, but after reading this I couldn't help but to let you know that I thank God and the Holy Spirit for moving you to share your amazing story with us and thank you for that!

EDIT: Having said that, now I will now also join the 'we' as DMB suggested.

DMB: You are correct. However, I woke up feeling somewhat badly for not explaining why I feel the way I do to Luigi.

I felt he should have a better explanation than I had given in the past and, I have been a bit tough on him because of the first reasons for his starting all of this, which I also believe to still be the true reasons for all of his posts, though he has modified somewhat.

So, consider this the post I should have put up earlier.

I am not wanting to continue any of this threads primary subject matter, yet, would like to see him leave it, for better reasons, not worse ones.

Again, You are absolutely correct .

Fr. Charles R. Matheny said:

Effort at Explanation

I actually read everything you wrote.  When faced with an excessively long post, I normally read a sentence here and there to get the flavor, but your's was interesting enough and meaningful enough that I can't believe I read the whole thing (Remember the TV ad from years ago with the line "I can't believe I ate the whole thing"?).  [:D]

Luigi Sam said:

Hi Charles,

I thank you for putting your heart on paper, and I appreciate this. However I too am doing this - but most people here are just abhoring me for it.

I don't abhor you for it, but you have been given an answer by Bob yet you continue to drag out the issue.  Also, you have started two threads dealing with basically the same issue.  Like many others I'm getting tired of it.  We just want you to give it a rest since you have your answer.

As a church leader (pastor), a cursory look around my office I notice some recent book purchases;

Richard Dawkins - The Greatest show on Earth: the evidence for evolution

John W Loftus - Why I became an atheist

Alain de Botton - Religion for atheists

Brian McLaren - A new kind of Christianity

N.T Wright - The Climax of the Covenant

All of these books have diametrically different doctrinal viewpoints, they even challenge one anothers worldviews.

However reading why Loftus became an atheist, allows me to question and grow my own faith.

Likewise de Botton allows me to see how organised and organic Christianity is percieved by non believers and then the human narratives that religion speaks loudest too.

McLaren has some great ideas that not all church people like, some call him too liberal, others not liberal enough.....

NT Wright's views once were maligned by the mainstream church and theologian, has now found acceptance in large parts of the Christian church.

My point is;

caveat emptor

You have a brain, so you need to use it and choose what is doctrinally sound.

In some ways Luigi you are struggling in an age of information where academically there are few absolute truths, just differing opinions.

It is up to YOU to read widely and make your own opinion!

Kelvin Niblett said:

you are struggling in an age of information where academically there are few absolute truths, just differing opinions.

I disagree with the entire postmodern viewpoint that everything is relative, but still, that does not mean that we have to agree on everything.  Also, while I do say that, that does not prevent me from reading books by people with other points of view.  I do read books that have other points of view on a regular basis, it does help me learn.  It also helps me to be able to talk with people who have radically different points of view than what I have, I have also occasionally changed my point of view by reading other works, or at least had some modifications to that point of view from time to time.  Reading other points of view is also part of how I became a Bible believing Christian.

David Thomas said:

Much of this thread could have been avoided if it had been labeled differently. If it had been titled "Denominational Label Request" I believe most users would agree that there is value in reading beyond one's denomination (I realize that labeling creates it's own challenges with understandings that change over time and individuals may not align 100% with the denominational badge they wear, if any). I now believe that Luigi has explained that he is systematic in his approach to secondary literature.

The word "Warning" is what forced some into a defensive posture and has caused (some intended and some unintentional) harsh accusations of others within the broad spectrum of Logos users. Nobody wants to think of their beliefs as deserving of a "warning", but fewer would object to their belief system being tagged or identified.

I agree, that would have been a whole lot better and a lot less threatening to a lot of people.

Michael Childs said:

Which Christians?  Don't you know what you disagree with?

I used to not be a Christian.  I used to be agnostic.  I used to be into scientism, putting faith into scientific theories instead of the Gospel.

That does not mean that I have thrown science out of the window, but I have placed my faith in Christ and in his Word, the Bible.