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Posts 466
Butters | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Aug 11 2013 7:42 AM

Dean053:
What is restored pronunciation? I'm assuming it differs from Erasmian? I've heard of restored Koine (e.g. Randall Buth), but not for Homer.

Hi Dean053!  

The restored pronunciation is based on Vox Graeca: The Pronunciation of Classical Greek and the work of WB Stanford and others.  

Of course, there are no absolutes here, as you prolly well know; however, the evidence for the use of something like the "restored" in the context of Classical Greek, particularly in 5th century Athens, seems quite strong; it is, however, also used in the context of Homer in addition to Attic Greek.  I am not sure if it is applied to Koine - I kind of doubt it is, but that's just an educated guess, as I haven't yet studied Koine.  And of course, it's just an approximation and no doubt there will be further developments.  

Yes it differs from both the so-called Byzantine and the Erasmian in that it employs the most recent scholarship regarding vowel values; it uses pitch accent; and syllabic rather than accentual in verse.  There are other differences too.  

WARNING:  I forgot to tell people this; in the initial course (The Pronunciation and Reading of Ancient Greek) Daitz makes use of the "digamma," which was employed for some time by many scholars (pronounced like the English "w") to avoid hiatus or rhythmic irregularities which are otherwise inexplicable.  His use of this does not irretrievably mar the short course; and he drops the "digamma fetish" (Big Smile) in short order in his following courses. 

I'd be glad to chat about all of this in more detail if you'd like. 

~Butters Smile

“To love means loving the unlovable.  To forgive means pardoning the unpardonable.  Faith means believing the unbelievable.  Hope means hoping when everything seems hopeless.” ~Chesterton

Posts 466
Butters | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Aug 11 2013 7:50 AM

George Somsel:
but the poor man had nothing but one little ewe lamb

Oh little ewe,

You are my pet;

My pet, my thread,

I'll care for you!

So please don't yet

Drop down dead. 

“To love means loving the unlovable.  To forgive means pardoning the unpardonable.  Faith means believing the unbelievable.  Hope means hoping when everything seems hopeless.” ~Chesterton

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Aug 11 2013 8:19 AM

Butters:

The restored pronunciation is based on Vox Graeca: The Pronunciation of Classical Greek and the work of WB Stanford and others.  

Of course, there are no absolutes here, as you prolly well know; however, the evidence for the use of something like the "restored" in the context of Classical Greek, particularly in 5th century Athens, seems quite strong; it is, however, also used in the context of Homer in addition to Attic Greek.  I am not sure if it is applied to Koine - I kind of doubt it is, but that's just an educated guess, as I haven't yet studied Koine.  And of course, it's just an approximation and no doubt there will be further developments.  

You might be interested in this.

http://www.biblicallanguagecenter.com/

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 466
Butters | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Aug 11 2013 10:34 AM

Thanks George!

I think I'll start with looking into phonemic changes from Classical to Koine; get some audio around that; as well as get my hands on a transitional grammar.  No doubt there are many.  Probably many of them are on the old side, since this was the traditional progression: roughly, Homeric -> Attic -> Koine. 

~Butters Smile

“To love means loving the unlovable.  To forgive means pardoning the unpardonable.  Faith means believing the unbelievable.  Hope means hoping when everything seems hopeless.” ~Chesterton

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Aug 11 2013 10:45 AM

You might be interested in the Sophocles collection in CP—no, it's not the playwright.

https://www.logos.com/product/8513/e-a-sophocles-collection

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 466
Butters | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Aug 11 2013 11:20 AM

Interesting - I've seen his name before but haven't till now known anything about him.  How fascinating; these look like great resources.  Bid placed.  

Thanks George!

~Butters Smile

“To love means loving the unlovable.  To forgive means pardoning the unpardonable.  Faith means believing the unbelievable.  Hope means hoping when everything seems hopeless.” ~Chesterton

Posts 466
Butters | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 15 2013 5:26 PM

Incidentally, for those interested, the two Homeric Dictionaries worth having are: 

  1. Cunliffe's A Lexicon of the Homeric Dialect (still under copywrite)
  2. Autenrieth's Homeric Lexicon (public domain)

~Butters Smile

“To love means loving the unlovable.  To forgive means pardoning the unpardonable.  Faith means believing the unbelievable.  Hope means hoping when everything seems hopeless.” ~Chesterton

Posts 138
Michael Grigoni | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 15 2013 5:39 PM

Butters:

Incidentally, for those interested, the two Homeric Dictionaries worth having are: 

  1. Cunliffe's A Lexicon of the Homeric Dialect (still under copywrite)
  2. Autenrieth's Homeric Lexicon (public domain)

~Butters Smile

We're planning on listing Autenrieth's Homeric Dictionary on community pricing next week.

Pharr's Homeric Greek: A Book for Beginners was listed this afternoon. Please bid! Smile

Posts 466
Butters | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 15 2013 5:55 PM

Mike Grigoni:

We're planning on listing Autenrieth's Homeric Dictionary on community pricing next week.

Pharr's Homeric Greek: A Book for Beginners was listed this afternoon. Please bid! Smile

Hah!  Well, that is fantastic Mike!  Very glad to hear all that.

Shall place bid immediately.   

Please let us know about Plato & Aristotle whenever - if ever - you have any info!  

Cheers!

~Butters Smile

“To love means loving the unlovable.  To forgive means pardoning the unpardonable.  Faith means believing the unbelievable.  Hope means hoping when everything seems hopeless.” ~Chesterton

Posts 4625
RIP
Milford Charles Murray | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 16 2013 5:13 AM

Mike Grigoni:

Butters:

Incidentally, for those interested, the two Homeric Dictionaries worth having are: 

  1. Cunliffe's A Lexicon of the Homeric Dialect (still under copywrite)
  2. Autenrieth's Homeric Lexicon (public domain)

~Butters Smile

We're planning on listing Autenrieth's Homeric Dictionary on community pricing next week.

Pharr's Homeric Greek: A Book for Beginners was listed this afternoon. Please bid! Smile

Thanks, Mike!                       Very excited!          *smile*                      Just bid!                                            Peace!

Philippians 4:  4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........

Posts 138
Michael Grigoni | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 16 2013 9:43 AM

Butters:

Mike Grigoni:

We're planning on listing Autenrieth's Homeric Dictionary on community pricing next week.

Pharr's Homeric Greek: A Book for Beginners was listed this afternoon. Please bid! Smile

Hah!  Well, that is fantastic Mike!  Very glad to hear all that.

Shall place bid immediately.   

Please let us know about Plato & Aristotle whenever - if ever - you have any info!  

Cheers!

~Butters Smile

We thought we'd hold off on listing the Loeb editons of Plato and Aristotle since we listed English editions of each earlier this year. Your enthusiasm is causing me to reconsider though, so I've placed it on my list to research. As soon as I have further news I'll let you know.

Posts 466
Butters | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Aug 18 2013 6:58 AM

Mike Grigoni:
We thought we'd hold off on listing the Loeb editons of Plato and Aristotle since we listed English editions of each earlier this year. Your enthusiasm is causing me to reconsider though, so I've placed it on my list to research. As soon as I have further news I'll let you know.

Thanks Mike!  I do understand about the English versions; however, it seems to me that the original language texts are of particular value here, given their central place in the western philosophical tradition, not to mention their intimate relation to Christian theology on many levels.  

Cheers, 

~Butters Smile

“To love means loving the unlovable.  To forgive means pardoning the unpardonable.  Faith means believing the unbelievable.  Hope means hoping when everything seems hopeless.” ~Chesterton

Posts 466
Butters | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Aug 18 2013 11:03 AM

I wrote this elsewhere to the question of why Plato's Dialogues are important; particularly to Christians.  I thought I'd put it up here for anyone who is interested: 

_____

Plato's dialogues are immensely profound; and are highly useful for Christians and Catholics.

1. They teach people how to think and argue; how to ask questions and how to address them;

2. The Republic is primarily a work about ethics (most of what Plato wrote was really about ethics); about what man is, what his ends are, and in what the good life consists;

3. Plato (and Socrates) was concerned with refuting the Sophists - who were the epistemological and ethical relativists of the time; and for which there are very strong parallels in our contemporary world.

4. Socrates was a theological genius; and thereafter, Plato put forth a revolutionary idea, that of transcendent reality. Ever since Plato, the deepest division in the West - a war still being fought - is between those who believe there is only this here; and those who believe in a transcendent reality.

5. Socrates and Plato have so profoundly informed what we believe and think about so many things, that Whitehead wasn't exaggerating much to say that every philosopher since is really a mere footnote.

_____

I could go on and on; and could easily say as much if not more for Aristotle.  

~Butters Smile

“To love means loving the unlovable.  To forgive means pardoning the unpardonable.  Faith means believing the unbelievable.  Hope means hoping when everything seems hopeless.” ~Chesterton

Posts 466
Butters | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Aug 18 2013 1:48 PM

One more thing and I'll Zip it! it.  

Plato's philosophy is almost poetry; it's sheer revolutionary genius, it's penetrating wisdom, it's exuberant language, is enough to make you want to learn Ancient Greek to read it in the original, which I highly recommend. 

~Butter Smile

“To love means loving the unlovable.  To forgive means pardoning the unpardonable.  Faith means believing the unbelievable.  Hope means hoping when everything seems hopeless.” ~Chesterton

Posts 138
Michael Grigoni | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Aug 21 2013 8:41 AM

Autenrieth's Homeric Dictionary has been made available on community pricing.

Posts 466
Butters | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 23 2013 7:50 AM

Mike Grigoni:

Autenrieth's Homeric Dictionary has been made available on community pricing.

This is a truly excellent resource!

~Butters Smile

“To love means loving the unlovable.  To forgive means pardoning the unpardonable.  Faith means believing the unbelievable.  Hope means hoping when everything seems hopeless.” ~Chesterton

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 23 2013 8:00 AM

Butters:
Thanks Mike!  I do understand about the English versions; however, it seems to me that the original language texts are of particular value here, given their central place in the western philosophical tradition, not to mention their intimate relation to Christian theology on many levels.  

You lied; you said you wouldn't mention it.  Wink

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 4625
RIP
Milford Charles Murray | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 23 2013 8:26 AM

Peace, Mike!               Thank you so very kindly!               *smile*                          I am absolutely delighted!    

                                                                                                                                               Psalm 29:11

Mike Grigoni:

Autenrieth's Homeric Dictionary has been made available on community pricing.

Philippians 4:  4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........

Posts 10
El Toro | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 11 2013 3:55 PM

The Loeb edition of Aristotle's works (all that are in the public domain) is currently available on community pricing. Plato's works are on their way and should be listed next week.

Posts 466
Butters | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 11 2013 7:44 PM

Wow, that is simply excellent Mike!  I am very, very excited!  Blessings be upon ye sir!

~Butters Smile

“To love means loving the unlovable.  To forgive means pardoning the unpardonable.  Faith means believing the unbelievable.  Hope means hoping when everything seems hopeless.” ~Chesterton

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