NASB95 Hebrew Interlinear mis-coding
In the example below from Psalm 55:14 the two Hebrew words have been mapped to the wrong English words. The Hebrew word labeled #4 is the word for 'fellowship' whereas the Hebrew word labeled #3 is the word for 'sweet'.
Pastor, North Park Baptist Church
Bridgeport, CT USA
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I also found NASB95 Greek Interlinear mis-coding in Revelation 3:10, as testing is mapped to ὁ instead of πειρασμός.
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15" rMBP 2.6 GHz i7 | 16 GB RAM | 1.0 TB Flash Drive | OS X 10.12.3 | Logos 7.0 (7.3.0.0062)
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This raises a question that I never thought about before... if you use the report typo tool in these sorts of circumstances, will the correction be used in fixing the interlinear?
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Donovan R. Palmer said:
This raises a question that I never thought about before... if you use the report typo tool in these sorts of circumstances, will the correction be used in fixing the interlinear?
It should be... we've been asked before (in v3) to use this mechanism for more than just "typo's".
They really should rename it...
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Yes, Report Typo is for more than just typos. I've been directed to use it for missing or broken hyperlinks. Here's how the help file describes the purpose of it: "Send Logos a typo report with suggested correction for a misspelled word, reference with missing hyperlink, or other typo."
I suspect that problems with Interlinear coding can also be reported this way. At least it will go to someone who will know who to forward it to. It might get buried here in the Forum. I agree "Report Typo" should be named something more general, perhaps "Report Typos and Resource Content Corrections."
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Rosie Perera said:
Yes, Report Typo is for more than just typos. I've been directed to use it for missing or broken hyperlinks. Here's how the help file describes the purpose of it: "Send Logos a typo report with suggested correction for a misspelled word, reference with missing hyperlink, or other typo."
Part of the reason I ask about the "Report Typo Tool" for this is that I am not certain that just because we post it on here that it gets picked up by the right person in Logos.
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Donovan R. Palmer said:
Part of the reason I ask about the "Report Typo Tool" for this is that I am not certain that just because we post it on here that it gets picked up by the right person in Logos.
Report Typo is the best vehicle as it always goes to the right people!
The forum is OK if the issue appears to be widespread ie. if it would take far too many Typo reports to cover the issue.
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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Dave Hooton said:Donovan R. Palmer said:
Part of the reason I ask about the "Report Typo Tool" for this is that I am not certain that just because we post it on here that it gets picked up by the right person in Logos.
Report Typo is the best vehicle as it always goes to the right people!
The forum is OK if the issue appears to be widespread ie. if it would take far too many Typo reports to cover the issue.
It still would be better to find out what email address one could send multiple typo reports to, because it's more likely to get seen than posting on the form. I know the Logos employees are doing their best to read everything, but we've also been doing our best (not intentionally, of course) to make that a nearly impossible task for them with all our posting. ;-)
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There are many instances of this type of mis-alignment. My concern would be if (lemma:peirasmos ANDEQUALS testing) produces zero results, which it does not in this case, showing that they are treated as belonging in the same location.
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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Rosie Perera said:
It still would be better to find out what email address one could send multiple typo reports to, because it's more likely to get seen than posting on the form.
If the issue was widespread I (and hopefully the other MVP's) would report it as a BUG in the wiki, which was created to reduce the load on developers trawling the forum.
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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Dave Hooton said:
There are many instances of this type of mis-alignment. My concern would be if (lemma:peirasmos ANDEQUALS testing) produces zero results, which it does not in this case, showing that they are treated as belonging in the same location.
But it does negatively impact the accuracy of a morphological search for the articular occurrences of peirasmos.
Note that in 1 Cor 10:13, the article has its own separate field.
I'm not sure if this is a mistake or intentional but it definitely has consequences for how one uses the resource.
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Really this is just another example of the limits of using a reverse interlinear for accurate morphological results.
The ESV separates the article from peirasmos in 3:10 but then includes the whole phrase tes mellouses erchesthai in one field in the same verse.
Including all these words in the same interlinear field impacts how the morphological search works.
Consider these examples:
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Hi Everyone.
Rosie Perera said:I suspect that problems with Interlinear coding can also be reported this way. At least it will go to someone who will know who to forward it to. It might get buried here in the Forum. I agree "Report Typo" should be named something more general, perhaps "Report Typos and Resource Content Corrections."
Actually, if you go to Help->Report a Problem, you'll hit a web page on the Logos web site (http://www.logos.com/support/reportaproblem) that has the following paragraph:
[quote]Specific Problems
If you encounter bugs or errors in our syntax databases, send an email to syntax@logos.com and explain the problem. Other data problems with Biblical People, Place, and Things can be sent to data@logos.com. Problems with reverse interlinears can be sent to revint@logos.com.
So please do report items to the appropriate addresses above. Some specific notes:
steve clark said:Steve, I've fixed this problem though don't know if the latest available NKJV has the fix. If not, it will hopefully be available soon.
Otto S. Carroll said:I also found NASB95 Greek Interlinear mis-coding in Revelation 3:10, as testing is mapped to ὁ instead of πειρασμός.
Otto, this is actually a proper alignment according to the way we typically align articular substantives that don't translate the article with "the" or a pronomial use of the article. The "of" is considered a grammaticalization of the substantive in the genitive case and not of the article, which is why the alignment "of" points to the substantive group. The article is then aligned with the substantive and linked to the main term. Under the hood, it knows the article is a secondary link, but since it is all in the same display segment, it gets the darker blue background. Also, for various reasons, the terms are left-justified which might give the appearance that the article is the primary link, but it really isn't. If you do a Bible Word Study on πειρασμος, then "testing" (or its stem) should occur in the translation ring for πειρασμος, not του. These 'primary' or 'strong' links are the ones that typically inform the translation ring (though this may not be the case with what shows up in the 'analysis' search view [being beta tested at present]. We typically align the article with the English "the" when it exists; also the article is frequently translated as a pronoun; in these cases the article is typically linked to the pronoun.
Rosie Perera said:It still would be better to find out what email address one could send
multiple typo reports to, because it's more likely to get seen than
posting on the form. I know the Logos employees are doing their best to
read everything, but we've also been doing our best (not intentionally,
of course) to make that a nearly impossible task for them with all our
posting. ;-)Hi Rosie. For flat-out typos, it really is best to use report a typo; those all end up in a database that stores location, version, typo, notes, user who reported and whatnot so that if further clarification is needed, it can be retrieved. This also means there's one place to look when revisiting books. So multiple typo reports are really best submitted via the report-a-typo feature. Other typos (syntax, reverse interlinear, people/places/things data) are best routed to the particular email addresses mentioned above.
Rick Brannan
Data Wrangler, Faithlife
My books in print0 -
I created a new thread regarding some questions that this thread raised for my understanding of the design goals of the Reverse Interlinears and what should constitute a misalignment.
I was in the process of composing the post while Rick posted his helpful response here.
There are still some issues that I raise there that might be helpful to address.
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Rick Brannan said:
Otto, this is actually a proper alignment according to the way we typically align articular substantives that don't translate the article with "the" or a pronomial use of the article. The "of" is considered a grammaticalization of the substantive in the genitive case and not of the article, which is why the alignment "of" points to the substantive group. The article is then aligned with the substantive and linked to the main term. Under the hood, it knows the article is a secondary link, but since it is all in the same display segment, it gets the darker blue background. Also, for various reasons, the terms are left-justified which might give the appearance that the article is the primary link, but it really isn't. If you do a Bible Word Study on πειρασμος, then "testing" (or its stem) should occur in the translation ring for πειρασμος, not του. These 'primary' or 'strong' links are the ones that typically inform the translation ring (though this may not be the case with what shows up in the 'analysis' search view [being beta tested at present]. We typically align the article with the English "the" when it exists; also the article is frequently translated as a pronoun; in these cases the article is typically linked to the pronoun.
Thanks Rick for the clarification. I was attempting a Bible Word Study on πειρασμος by right-clicking on testing from the NASB95. When the dialogue box opened, I noticed the lemma ὁ, but just simply missed πειρασμος a few lines below it. As a result, I erroneously reported that testing was not mapped correctly in this verse.
I'm sorry.
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15" rMBP 2.6 GHz i7 | 16 GB RAM | 1.0 TB Flash Drive | OS X 10.12.3 | Logos 7.0 (7.3.0.0062)
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Rick Brannan said:
If you encounter bugs or errors in our syntax databases, send an email to syntax@logos.com and explain the problem. Other data problems with Biblical People, Place, and Things can be sent to data@logos.com. Problems with reverse interlinears can be sent to revint@logos.com.
I have a little problem with this organizational model. If I find an error, I am unlikely to go to help to find out what to do unless it is a major problem. I'll usually be willing to do a right click, hit report typo and that's about all. While I could be wrong about your customer base, I think you need to do one of two things to actually get the errors reported:
1) Give us a single address to report data errors and do the subdividing at your end
2) Build right clicks with the various addresses into the software so that we don't need to know where it is being directed.
Perhaps, the responses to this response will provide a sampling of others' opinions
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Rick Brannan said:
Specific Problems
If you encounter bugs or errors in our syntax databases, send an email to syntax@logos.com and explain the problem. Other data problems with Biblical People, Place, and Things can be sent to data@logos.com. Problems with reverse interlinears can be sent to revint@logos.com.
I created a wiki page called 'Reporting Data Problems' with this info. If it duplicates info somewhere else on the wiki it can be deleted.
Pastor, North Park Baptist Church
Bridgeport, CT USA
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Russ Quinn said:
Consider these examples:
(lemma:μέλλω BEFORE 2 word lemma:ἔρχομαι) produces 5 verses in NASB95 and 4 verses in ESV (-Rev 3:10) compared to 3 verses (lemma:μέλλω BEFORE 1 word lemma:ἔρχομαι) in LGNTI. Both RI's have Matt 16:27 & Luke:10:1 as extra results, showing that the spacing is governed by the English words as well as the order of Gk words in the RI. The omission of Rev 3.10 in ESV is interesting but "coming" is at the same location (ANDEQUALS) as both Gk words.
The results clearly show that one should not use a reverse interlinear for accurate morphological results, but are useful for investigations of "what translates what".
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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MJ. Smith said:
I have a little problem with this organizational model. If I find an error, I am unlikely to go to help to find out what to do unless it is a major problem. I'll usually be willing to do a right click, hit report typo and that's about all. While I could be wrong about your customer base, I think you need to do one of two things to actually get the errors reported:
1) Give us a single address to report data errors and do the subdividing at your end
2) Build right clicks with the various addresses into the software so that we don't need to know where it is being directed.
Perhaps, the responses to this response will provide a sampling of others' opinions
Agreed. The current model as described for reporting such errors is not likely to lead to many errors being reported....
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Dave Hooton said:
The results clearly show that one should not use a reverse interlinear for accurate morphological results, but are useful for investigations of "what translates what".
Dave, you've hit something. You need to use the right tool for the job. The reverse interlinears can be an important source of information, but they are no substitute for really knowing Greek. If you want to make an accurate conclusion about the original languages... search an original language Bible.
Prov. 15:23
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Damian McGrath said:
Agreed. The current model as described for reporting such errors is not likely to lead to many errors being reported....
But they are usually directed to the forum!
The model needs to be promoted more effectively as I missed it (though remember having seen it previously!). The wiki is a start (thanks Mark) but it needs to be shown on the Context menu eg. a single Report option with subdivisions for the type of problem.
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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Kevin Becker said:Dave Hooton said:
The results clearly show that one should not use a reverse interlinear for accurate morphological results, but are useful for investigations of "what translates what".
Dave, you've hit something. You need to use the right tool for the job. The reverse interlinears can be an important source of information, but they are no substitute for really knowing Greek. If you want to make an accurate conclusion about the original languages... search an original language Bible.
I wonder if the morphological search tool shouldn't exclude the Reverse Interlinears as an option for two reasons:
1) Not sure they add value in that context beyond searching a morphologically tagged text.
2) They are potentially misleading for people who lack the resources to analyze the results properly.
What do you guys think?
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Dave Hooton said:
But they are usually directed to the forum!
I was referring to the need for users to hunt down one of a multitude of email addresses and then send an email (accurately reporting the problem - hard with limited copying/pasting).
Dave Hooton said:The model needs to be promoted more effectively as I missed it (though remember having seen it previously!).
The model is flawed....
Dave Hooton said:it needs to be shown on the Context menu eg. a single Report option with subdivisions for the type of problem.
This is what is needed not emails.
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