Logos 4 and Large Updates - back to 3 for me!
Just to set the scene I was involved from beta testing days and it seems to me that the update system that caused so many problems in beta times has not been sorted and is still a problem. In South Africa we do not have unlimited download facilities, and internet is a rather expensive commodity, and we are charged per byte if we exceed our monthly quota of 3 gig.
I was away from a permanent download line for about 3 weeks and for that period set my internet to off and thus did no updates.
Yesterday morning I reconnected to the internet. I have till now downloaded about 7 gig of who knows what! I noticed this morning that Logos 4 is now 4.0a.
What are the rest of the downloads?
By the way I am busy with a 471meg one again!!!!!! It started with a 2.2 gig download, then continually every time the program restarts I am informed there is an update available. This is really not enjoyable, as I have to pay for every bite that downloads, I have no control over the process and no way of knowing what is happening on my system.
I have now reached a point of no return in my patience levels (and bye
the way financially as well), and am seriously considering if I should not shelve 4 until the update problems have been sorted. Please programmers this is an area that seriously needs attention, we have to have control over what we update. WE NEED A SYSTEM WHERE WE CAN CHOOSE WHAT WE WANT TO UPDATE AND NOT BE FORCED TO ACCEPT EVERYTHING THAT IS QUEUED FOR US TO RECEIVE. I am sure that many of the updates are on resources that I do not necessarily want to spend money updating as I am not interested in all the pictures, and large graphic files! If I had some control I could decide which resources to update and which I would choose to leave. In the USA this may seem to be a non entity with fast download speeds, and unlimited data downloads. But for some of us this is serious, and really does generate a feeling of badwill towards Logos.
While I have been writing this the 471 meg download has completed and I now have a 72.6 meg download. THIS HAS BEEN GOING ON NOW SINCE YESTERDAY, just get a download completed and even before the reindexing starts there is another download. I AM G.V.
Unless there is some or other solution, or someone points out something I am doing wrong it will be time for me to shelve Logos4. SO SAD ! I just cannot afford to spend money on resources as well as these updates. To put this in perspective it has cost me R500.00 already in extra bandwidth costs, and there is NO WAY that I can determine when this circus performance will end and when my spending will come to a stop.
The 72.6 meg download has completed an I have a 471meg download being forced on me, again, so this would now take me to over 8gig.
I am disabling internet and all further updates until I get an answer, as this is now ridiculous.
I AM A VERY DISILLUSIONED AND UNHAPPY LOGOS CUSTOMER!
Bert Barnes
Acer Extensa, 4gig Ram, 160gig 5400 HD, Core 2 duo processor, WinXP
Comments
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BertBarnes said:
The 72.6 meg download has completed an I have a 471meg download being forced on me, again, so this would now take me to over 8gig.
I am disabling internet and all further updates until I get an answer, as this is now ridiculous.
I AM A VERY DISILLUSIONED AND UNHAPPY LOGOS CUSTOMER!
I am about to move into a situation where large downloads on the internet are going to be similar to yours. I am not sure how I am going to make it work with L4. I have wondered if Logos would consider for those who live in rural US locations and in countries where the internet is still very expensive, a cumulative update DVD on a quarterly basis? I know a number of missionaries and Christians that this would be their only real option to use L4 and keep it updated on a reasonable basis.
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Bert,
I am in agreement with you that it would be nice to be able to pick and choose what we download.
I live in the Middle East and we are charged by the bite. Although our internet must be cheaper than in South Africa I pay about 20$ for 3GB/or one month. My initial download of the study package took 3 days / 2 months of internet usage (Just over 5GB).
I don’t have auto updates or Internet turned on and I only update when I am at the end of the month and have extra bites left on my account.
All in All I am VERY Pleased with the service and support that we get from LOGOS!
I have an HP Pavilion dv6500 Notebook PC with an Intel Core 2 Duo CPU 2.20 GHz and 2.00 GB Ram and I run Logos fine…
I am a husband, son, and I am an Arabic student. I have a Bachelors of Science in Information Technology.0 -
Josh, I love your profile photo!
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Josh said:
My initial download of the study package took 3 days / 2 months of internet usage (Just over 5GB).
I don’t have auto updates or Internet turned on and I only update when I am at the end of the month and have extra bites left on my account.
All in All I am VERY Pleased with the service and support that we get from LOGOS!
Josh,
The problem is with the design of the update system, and not the actual concept. I am now on 8 gig. What happens if I am switched off for a while and then I decide to purchase a resource and there are 8 gigs of downloads queued for me to receive. Do I have to wait for all the 8 gig to first come down, (at the moment it is 8gigs and switched off because I have no idea how many more are coming, because after every download and restart before the re-indexing begins i am informed of another download.
WE NEED TO BE ABLE TO CHOOSE WHAT AND WHEN WE WISH TO DOWNLOAD. I CANNOT JUST ACCEPT FORCED DOWNLOADS NOT HAVING ANY CONTROL WHAT SO EVER.
My system now will now remain not updated, something i am not happy about, and I will not be able to purchase any resources, and this is frustrating. What Logos thought would be a way to stop people worrying about is actually OK in the USA (most places I have just seen not all) but not everywhere where their product is used.
Bert Barnes
Acer Extensa, 4gig Ram, 160gig 5400 HD, Core 2 duo processor, WinXP
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BertBarnes said:
I am now on 8 gig.
I have investigated a bit further and it appears as if the download system is in a loop. There are two downloads that do not seem to register wherever they should one for 471.8meg and the other for 72.6meg. The one will download, restart Logos and before the indexing begins the second will will initiate. Is the problem on my system, Logos' system or somewhere in the cloud?
Has anyone else had a similar problem?
Bert Barnes
Acer Extensa, 4gig Ram, 160gig 5400 HD, Core 2 duo processor, WinXP
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Bert,
If you can turn logging on and upload your logs we may be able to help. Don't use the CTRL method, as they won't capture all your downloading/indexing.
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
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Donovan R. Palmer said:
I have wondered if Logos would consider for those who live in rural US locations and in countries where the internet is still very expensive, a cumulative update DVD on a quarterly basis?
I also would like to be able to get the updates through a dvd periodically. The computer that I use most with L4 is not connected to the internet and never has been. So I am still running the original version that I received on the installation discs. I have had no problems with it either. The only minor inconvenience is getting new resources on it.
I too am very happy with L4.
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Mark Barnes said:
Bert,
If you can turn logging on and upload your logs we may be able to help.
Hi Mark,
I have stopped the downloads and the program is busy re-indexing. I will wait until this is completed and then submit logfiles.
Mark Barnes said:Don't use the CTRL method, as they won't capture all your downloading/indexing.
I am not too sure what you mean by this
Bert Barnes
Acer Extensa, 4gig Ram, 160gig 5400 HD, Core 2 duo processor, WinXP
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BertBarnes said:Mark Barnes said:
Don't use the CTRL method, as they won't capture all your downloading/indexing.
I am not too sure what you mean by this
Sorry, I knew after I posted it, that it wasn't clear. On the page I linked to, there are two ways of turning logging on. First (and very prominently) by holding CTRL when you load Logos. Second (and hidden at the bottom) by running a javascript file. You need the second method.
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
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Bert Barnes
Acer Extensa, 4gig Ram, 160gig 5400 HD, Core 2 duo processor, WinXP
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Bert, maybe because you have not updated for so long, all the updates are coming at you at once. They are probably "fighting" each other to restart and install. You might want to go to "tools/program settings" and turn off automatic download updates. This way you can wait untill one download finish, restart and let it do its thing and then select the update again if the message pops up.
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I'm in an area with unlimited (and relatively fast) downloading, so I am not as affected as others.
Having said that, I don't understand why after so many public complaints (not just on the forums, but everywhere on the internet), Logos doesn't implement a dialog box that shows what is to be updated, and allow for acceptance or ignoring each portion of the update. I know it must be possible, because the *other Bible program* does this all the time.
I think such a response from Logos would be a huge gesture to many loyal users (even if I don't need it). The other thing is that it woudl be nice to know what has been updated. That happened to me the other day, when Logos downloaded (quickly) a smallish (~40MB) update. It would be very nice to know what I got.
Fred Greco
Senior Pastor, Christ Church PCA, Katy, TX
Windows 10 64-bit; Logos 7.1 SR-2 (Reformed Platinum)0 -
I'm sorry, but we're not going to offer "choose your update portions." The best solution is to turn off automatic updates, and get them once in a while on DVD. (We'll be making new DVD's frequently.)
We spend nearly a decade offering super-fine-grained choice of what to download and update, and it led to incredibly difficult technical support. In Logos 4, both the code and data are much more tightly integrated than in the past. If we offered the option of choosing what to update, you might decide that you want the new code, but not the 50 megs of updated reverse interlinear databases. But that new code might be designed to work with a change in the reverse interlinear database format (has already happened at least once since our release), and you'd then be in an unstable situation.
We could theoretically build a massive dependency tree of what version of what requires what version of what other thing (we did that in LDLS 3), but it quickly became unmanageable, and one error in that data starts causing very hard to diagnose crashes.
I'm sorry about the download situation, and the burden it puts on users with limited Internet capacity, but I also want to be up front about how we're dealing with it, so you can plan appropriately.
-- Bob
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Bob,
You may want to consider a DVD update subscription service. That way users don't have to check the Logos website for updated DVD's. For a small annual subscription fee, users would receive quarterly DVD updates.
Bill
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Bob, it seems that you still need to consider one of his points, what if he just wants to buy a resource and download it? Well, I guess I can see the problem, though. I actually saw your reasons coming.
However, why can't you implament something that would state what the download will entail, and let the user decide if it is worth the time/money to download? The user would be able to chose what features to download, he or she can at least be given the option to be online, and to chose, based on what is being upgraded or added, to download.
It just seems that this approach leaves out our brethren in the mission field.
May the Lord bless you and keep you.
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that should read, "the user WOULDN'T be able to choose which features..."
May the Lord bless you and keep you.
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Bob Pritchett said:
The best solution is to turn off automatic updates, and get them once in a while on DVD. (We'll be making new DVD's frequently.)
Hi Bob,
Could you please explain to me how the process would work when I purchased a new resource if this situation continues as is? In my studies I sometimes see a reference to a resource, I do a quick check and it is available for download. How would I process the order and download just that resource if I have a long queue of updates waiting for download? The purchase process as well at the moment does not give the choice of a DVD for Logos 4 resources, only download, and I think I remember that this is the way it will remain (but I am not sure about that) We can get a DVD or CD for 3 but not for 4.
Bert
Bert Barnes
Acer Extensa, 4gig Ram, 160gig 5400 HD, Core 2 duo processor, WinXP
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Mark Barnes said:
If you can turn logging on and upload your logs we may be able to help
Hi,
I am enclosing a zip file with logs, from the beginning, after the large download, when the smaller is requested and after the second request again for the large download after the smaller download completed. After the download the software requests a restart and at that stage I quickly tried to copy the log files as new ones are created with a restart. That is why there are so many different zipped files. I hope this makes sense.
Thanks for trying to help - - - most appreciated
Bert
Bert Barnes
Acer Extensa, 4gig Ram, 160gig 5400 HD, Core 2 duo processor, WinXP
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BertBarnes said:
WE NEED TO BE ABLE TO CHOOSE WHAT AND WHEN WE WISH TO DOWNLOAD. I CANNOT JUST ACCEPT FORCED DOWNLOADS NOT HAVING ANY CONTROL WHAT SO EVER.
My system now will now remain not updated, something i am not happy about, and I will not be able to purchase any resources, and this is frustrating. What Logos thought would be a way to stop people worrying about is actually OK in the USA (most places I have just seen not all) but not everywhere where their product is used.
Hi Bert,
There has been some problem with getting L4 updates (recently reported in the forum), and I'm not sure if this relates to downloads looping in your case but an 8 GB download has not been required to my knowledge (I got a 2 GB update in early December). Hopefully the logs will reveal something.
I'm in a similar position to yourself, though I now have a larger download limit for an extra $AUD10/month. My strategy is:-
- Program Settings | Automatically Download Updates = NO
- Program Settings | Use Internet = YES
- go to the Forum when I'm told there is a download available
Then I look at the recent download and/or update threads as there are normally enough people who monitor their (unlimited/fast/cheap[:P]) downloads to inform others what is in the pipe and how big it is.
Then I can allow the download, or let it go and CANCEL it if the size is too big. I would also Cancel a second download and WAIT a very long time!
I'm currently on dial-up, so I Work offline for the holiday period! Any mess will sort itself out by the time I get back to broadband land.
This is a very indirect strategy but I do have a measure of control with information.
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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Bob Pritchett said:
The best solution is to turn off automatic updates, and get them once in a while on DVD. (We'll be making new DVD's frequently.)
Another approach that might help those with limited access would be to offer downloads monthly during this transition period until Logos 4 is complete. For these downloads, the approach would be not to have duplicates i.e. if the same resources were included in two updates within the month only the final result would be in the monthly download. Actually, it would be more like 6-8 weeks between the consolidated downloads I suspect. Then the user can look at the file size and their internet allotment and decide if they can afford the download. If not, then ship a DVD via air. Once the product is complete so they feel that they "have what they paid for" , go to the periodic DVD.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Dave Hooton said:
Then I can allow the download, or let it go and CANCEL it if the size is too big. I would also Cancel a second download and WAIT a very long time!
Thanks Dave, I tried the "cancel download" path and the download was just presented again for download - it just reappeared. I even went as far as shutting down and then restarting the computer to see if that would help sort out something, but to no avail. Patience is a virtue that I have not managed to develop and my obsessive/compulsive behaviour drives me to get the system perfect just because I know that there are downloads queued [:)]. I will spend time on developing patience and hope that some answer from Logos is forthcoming from the log files.
I do not spend that much time on the forums to be aware of everything that is happening. I will try your approach as there seems to be a lot of merit.
Bert Barnes
Acer Extensa, 4gig Ram, 160gig 5400 HD, Core 2 duo processor, WinXP
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MJ. Smith said:
Another approach that might help those with limited access would be to offer downloads monthly during this transition period until Logos 4 is complete. For these downloads, the approach would be not to have duplicates i.e. if the same resources were included in two updates within the month only the final result would be in the monthly download.
That's a reasonable idea, but it effectively happens if you wait long enough! The main contributor to large downloads after initially installing or upgrading are the media/image files which weigh in at 1.7 GB. Two of those within a month would exceed Bert's 3 GB quota. If he missed the first then it would be a single 1.7+ GB download. But this is a matter of timing and some luck.
A solution I proposed a while back is to have a download quota in Program Settings. A single download would not exceed that value by more than 10% (say) before allowing indexing to proceed. The method would work well with Automatically Download Updates = NO as notification of the remaining download (if any) would allow one to refuse it until the appropriate time.
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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Daniel R. Smith said:
However, why can't you implament something that would state what the download will entail, and let the user decide if it is worth the time/money to download? The user would be able to chose what features to download, he or she can at least be given the option to be online, and to chose, based on what is being upgraded or added, to download.
It just seems that this approach leaves out our brethren in the mission field.
Hi Daniel,
This is what I was requesting and Bob emphatically stated that it was a non issue. I guess I will just wait and see how things develop. I was always most thrilled with Logos, the team, the ethos and the product. I have even sent a personal email to Bob when I had a topic that I thought should not be addressed in public. However I think that with the rush of Logos4 being put out certain issues remain that still have to be addressed and we will have to wait and watch to see what direction Logos have decided to pursue in the future. Them growing so much larger makes decision making a lot more difficult.
Thanks for the support in this matter.
Bert Barnes
Acer Extensa, 4gig Ram, 160gig 5400 HD, Core 2 duo processor, WinXP
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Bert,
I've had a look through your logs, and it seems as though the theological journal library is causing you problems. You have a folder on your computer called d:\logos\books
Let me make a guess (it is a guess, please correct me if necessary):
- You've run the command scan d:\logos\books
- You've also run the command update now or update resources (or perhaps Logos has just done this automatically)
- You've exited Logos
Now, when you load Logos, the following happens:
- All your journal resources are downloaded
- Then all your journal resources are copied from d:\logos\books
- Then you restart Logos
The problem is that d:\logos\books are OLDER files, so when you restart, Logos checks for update and re-downloads all the TLJ files again. But then on restart they're all copied from d:\logos\books again, and you're in the loop.
If I'm right, and I may not be, renaming d:\logos\books should fix the problem, though it may require one more download after you do this.
Again, if I'm right, this is also a bug in Logos. It ought to behave more intelligently than this. Let me know whether I'm right and this suggestion works. If it does, I'll file a bug report to Logos.
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
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BertBarnes said:
I am enclosing a zip file with logs, from the beginning, after the large download, when the smaller is requested and after the second request again for the large download after the smaller download completed.
Bert a few questions
1. the last Indexer log file (472 MB download) indicated indexing was proceeding normally with 55 unindexed resources at Stage 3. Has that completed without incident?
2. you have a lot of *.lbxlls Galaxie software being copied from
\Logos\Books eg. GS_DBSJ_01 to 12. Why would this be?Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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Dave Hooton said:
the last Indexer log file (472 MB download) indicated indexing was proceeding normally with 55 unindexed resources at Stage 3. Has that completed without incident?
I had a re-index yesterday that took about 12 hours. I have not had re-index today after trying again!
Dave Hooton said:you have a lot of *.lbxlls Galaxie software being copied from
\Logos\Books eg. GS_DBSJ_01 to 12. Why would this be?Have no idea - I updated my journals with beyond compare about a month ago to update my logos3 resources. Did not have this problem after that, however Galaxie has released versions to Logos subsequently and there might be a problem now.
Thanks for the effort to help identify the problem!!!!
Bert Barnes
Acer Extensa, 4gig Ram, 160gig 5400 HD, Core 2 duo processor, WinXP
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Mark Barnes said:You've run the command scan d:\logos\books
You've also run the command update now or update resources (or perhaps Logos has just done this automatically)
You've exited LogosHi Mark,
I did not enter the command scan d:\logos\books; however this command was entered when the beta version was launched the first time. The update now command starts automatically by Logos after the program opens and I am informed that there are updates.
Mark Barnes said:If I'm right, and I may not be, renaming d:\logos\books should fix the problem, though it may require one more download after you do this.
I am going to try this as a temp measure - rename the folder do the updates and then see what happens. This is the folder that I have all my resources for Libronix 3, so if that works maybe clear the cache in 3 and in options/resource folders specify new folder name.
Will report back - - Thank you for the help most appreciated!!!
Bert Barnes
Acer Extensa, 4gig Ram, 160gig 5400 HD, Core 2 duo processor, WinXP
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BertBarnes said:
I am going to try this as a temp measure - rename the folder do the updates and then see what happens.
Hi Mark,
Renamed folder, and ran Logos4. No change - still in update loop.
I am redoing again, I have bitten the bullet and decided to run update again and collect log files. Hopefully these are more helpful and something can be found that I can do.
Last ditch effort from my side - finances now depleted [:)].
If no joy now will use Dave's logic - leave it for a long time - it will sort itself out (I hope) [:)]
Bert Barnes
Acer Extensa, 4gig Ram, 160gig 5400 HD, Core 2 duo processor, WinXP
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BertBarnes said:
I am redoing again, I have bitten the bullet and decided to run update again and collect log files. Hopefully these are more helpful and something can be found that I can do.
Procedure followed: renamed folder so that Logos4 does not hopefully find L3 updates.
Opened Logos 4 and accepted update offered.
When update completed closed Logos and copied log files (attached)
Hope thay are better and more helpful!
May all who read this have a most blessed Christmas.
Bert Barnes
Acer Extensa, 4gig Ram, 160gig 5400 HD, Core 2 duo processor, WinXP
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OK. The problem now is with a file in
\logos\renamed books renamed\ How does Logos4 know about this folder?
- Is Logos 4 installed in d:\Logos?
- When you ran the scan command earlier, did you run scan d:\logos or scan d:\logos\books?
Either way, here's what I suggest:
- Close Logos if it's open.
- Move the \logos\renamed books renamed\ folder to somewhere where Logos 4 won't find it (temporarily at least). I'd say put it on Drive C to be on the safe side, and don't have it as a subfolder of a Logos 4 installation.
- Do a search for files called identified.db and discovered.db in C:\Documents and Settings\User\Local Settings\Application Data\Logos4 - delete all those files
- Restart Logos
Basically, what we're doing there is hiding the folder that's causing the problem, then removing Logos' list of known resources (deleting those files is the equivalent of refresh resources in L3).
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
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