Logos 4 should still be in Beta

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This post has 76 Replies | 2 Followers

Posts 30
Jose Ortega | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 15 2010 9:07 PM

Hey Mike, Try copy and paste a search result. See what you get! And by the way, the "fanboy" postings do not promote the legitimate grievances of clients who are willing to pay premium dollars for a software product many Logos costumers  have long and faithfully supported.

 

Posts 63
Thomas Myers | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 15 2010 9:17 PM

Logos 4 has great strength.  I love Logos for preparing Bible study lessons, sermons and just my own personal study.  I consistently learn more from God's Word as I study from Logos 4.  I constantly hear how helpful my printouts help others understand God's word. What about the time saved in studying, not just minutes, but hours saved.  Logos 4, what an awesome tool to assist understanding God's Word.  Thanks, Logos.

Posts 1646
SteveF | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 15 2010 9:34 PM

joseortega:
the "fanboy" postings do not promote the legitimate grievances of clients who are willing to pay premium dollars for a software product

Thank you Jose. Well put.

Logos made their decision already knowing how many would be upset - before Bob announced that the Advertising campaign was going ahead, no matter what, etc many beta testers were guessing it would be late Spring before the software would be ready with the "old' features finally in place. Some wondered if the soon to arrive Zondervan products would even put pressure on that "assumed" date.  Except for those who may have looked nervously at the two US "conferences" etc NO one was anticipating a End of October/First of November release -- a few speculated about Thanksgiving, due to the US buying patterns.

In the meantime, fortunately, coders and developers continue to almost work around the clock--the latest "betas" are the fruit of that creativity.

But it does no one any good to try to defend the "beta" tag. It only calls for responses like the children's story about The Emperor's New Clothes. People see through  that for what it is. And then get more frustrated and angry. Being in "Denial" only makes it worse.

Hang in there, Jose, there really have been good items added into each of the latest beta releases. I anticipate even more. Hopefully one of them will be your "must have" item.

Regards

Steve

Regards, SteveF

Posts 2778
J.R. Miller | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 15 2010 10:30 PM

SteveF:

joseortega:
the "fanboy" postings do not promote the legitimate grievances of clients who are willing to pay premium dollars for a software product

Thank you Jose. Well put.

I could not help but notice the use of the term "fanboy" by Jose and then a hearty "amen" from Steve.  So I look up this word in the dictionary and it gives the following definition

"fanboy |ˈfanˌboi|noun - informal derogatory an obsessive male fan"

I am always amazed when a disagreement about something so trivial turns into name calling between brothers in Christ.  Really Jose and Steve? You find it appropriate to use derogatory name calling towards another Saint?  Is this a reflection of Christ formed in you?  

How shameful that Christian brothers cannot disagree without resorting to the works of the flesh. Sad

 

My Books in Logos & FREE Training

Posts 223
Jeremy White | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 15 2010 11:50 PM

joseortega:
the "fanboy" postings do not promote the legitimate grievances of clients who are willing to pay premium dollars for a software product many Logos costumers  have long and faithfully supported.

It's hardly a dirty secret that Logos is continuing to develop their engine - as others have said it will only get better over time - particularly given their responsiveness to constructive suggestions.

In regards to the money. We need to remember that what we are really buying is not the software (the basic engine can be downloaded for free) but rather the additional bundled resources - which (once they released the update script) are available to be used in Logos 3 if that is your current preferred way to access them.

A song I wrote and recorded : He Who Sits Upon The Throne

Posts 579
Jim VanSchoonhoven | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 16 2010 12:21 AM

I agree that Logos 4 is still very much like a beta program.  I also will state that Logos made some serious errors in how they released the new product!

I didn't like Logos 4 at all during the first 3-4 weeks and one of the biggest problems was that there was no simple way of finding out the information that I needed to find. However, as more videos have come out and I paid another 70.00 for both of the Morris' Logos 4 manuals, I am less frustrated and now I seriously all ready love the program and can hardly wait for the rest of it.

I think part of my problems was that I had spent alot of money and time to learn Libronix 3, and because of that, I can do what every I want with Libronix 3, and I went from there to beginner over night and the worse part of it was, there was nothing I could do about it, because of a huge lack of materials showing me how to use the new system.  For many people those horrible days are still here, they have not seen the materials out there or in some cases can not afford to buy them.

After I first bought Logos 4 and when i was still mad at Logos, I still had some choices to make, because after 2-3 week I knew things were not what I was expecting. 

I knew I could return the product and get my money back, which for some might be a good option but it wasn't for me,

Instead what I decided to do was to forget about Logos 4 until spring time, and just enjoy the great deal that I got on my upgrade in Libronix 3.  I had decided this would be my best option to avoid all the frustration I was having be trying to learn Logos 4 without the correct tools.

It was on the very day that I decided to go back to Libronix 3 for a while, that I got the manuals from Morris Proctor.  Wow, what a change for me, I started reading them right away and discovered these are the best manual that Morris has ever done.  Both manuals have an index in the back soyou can quickly find out where your subject can be found.  At about this same time other users had started putting up some really good videos about Logos 4 and then shortly after that John F. came out with his set of videos.

So, I never did go back to Libronix 3, although when a feature is missing in Logos 4, I fire up Libronix 3 and use it the way I did before Logos 4.

Now to me the cool thing is by the time Logos 4 is complete, I will already know how to use it.

If Logos would have released Logos 4 differently and we would have known up front what we know now they could have avoided a lot of heartaches for both us and them.

Let's say for a moment that Logos 4 is completed by July, it would not have been done any earlier if they had delayed the early release, but since we do not lose any functiion in Libronix those that want to, got a great buy on Logos package deals that work in Libronix 3, plus if you want to start learning the new program, and are willing to put up with beta type updates and problems you can dive in to Logos 4 right now, and if you want to pretend like Logos 4 was not released until July, wait until they actually get everything stable and all the old features back in it, and then start using it, and think of it as the real release date!  Or if you don't like these options send it back for a refund if it is not to late!

I understand what you are saying and I am hoping some of these ideas will help you.

If the system is not to your liking right now, don't force yourself to use it, go back and enjoy an expanded Libronix 3! Forget about Logos 4 until sometme in late spring.

In Christ,

Jim

Posts 4508
Robert Pavich | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 16 2010 4:51 AM

DOES NO ONE REMEMBER Bob P saying that they could have waited until all of the "expected features" were in place before releasing V4?

There were two roads to go down

1.) Wait. continue to develop. When v4 had all of the expected eventual features...then release. (in the mean time...nobody gets to use the software...

2.) Release with "features coming"

 

They chose #2 for a specific reason;  THOSE FEATURES(in their research) were features that only a SMALL PERCENTAGE of the user base used. (syntax diagrams, printing, etc)

 

So in their mind...anyone WHO WANTED TO NOT BUY BUT WAIT UNTIL EVERYTHING IS 100% LIKE THEY WANT...(Jose, Steve) can do so....they are not negatively affected in the least by having a product available for sale by Logos....they continue to use V3 as they always have.

 

Also, other users (those who want) could use the product also....

 

A WIN WIN  for everyone.

 

I find it very distasteful when those who purport to be Christian ascribe ulterior motives to Logos' decisions when they have no knowledge of what drove those decisions; it's no different than negative gossip.

Robert Pavich

For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__

Posts 1447
Blair Laird | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 16 2010 5:48 AM

Robert Pavich:

DOES NO ONE REMEMBER Bob P saying that they could have waited until all of the "expected features" were in place before releasing V4?

There were two roads to go down

1.) Wait. continue to develop. When v4 had all of the expected eventual features...then release. (in the mean time...nobody gets to use the software...

2.) Release with "features coming"

 

They chose #2 for a specific reason;  THOSE FEATURES(in their research) were features that only a SMALL PERCENTAGE of the user base used. (syntax diagrams, printing, etc)

 

So in their mind...anyone WHO WANTED TO NOT BUY BUT WAIT UNTIL EVERYTHING IS 100% LIKE THEY WANT...(Jose, Steve) can do so....they are not negatively affected in the least by having a product available for sale by Logos....they continue to use V3 as they always have.

 

Also, other users (those who want) could use the product also....

 

A WIN WIN  for everyone.

 

I find it very distasteful when those who purport to be Christian ascribe ulterior motives to Logos' decisions when they have no knowledge of what drove those decisions; it's no different than negative gossip.

I am glad logos 4 came out without the features. I like being right there on the testing ground and being able to suggest how to make the product easier to use. For those who have 3 and are not comfortable with version 4, they can run them side by side. Version 4 far surpasses version 3, it just has a couple kinks to be worked out.

I am Glad they released version 4 early

Posts 196
Dan Pogue | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 16 2010 6:04 AM

This is running in beta?  Shows you how much I know!!!  Tongue Tied I know that spiritual ignorance is a bad thing, but sometimes it is nice not to know some things!

Blessings,

danp

Posts 4508
Robert Pavich | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 16 2010 6:25 AM

DanPogue:
This is running in beta?

Dan..I'm not sure if that's a joke or not...(If it is....good one) but the term "beta" gets thrown around as a perjorative term when someone doesn't see a feature that they feel should be included.

It's not beta software...but if a person really thought that Sentence Diagrams should be there (I'm one of them) then THIS IS BETA!! Big Smile

 

Robert Pavich

For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__

Posts 403
777 | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 16 2010 6:35 AM

Logos 4 should be in beta?  I thought it already was.  Smile

Just kidding; don't get your shorts all in a knot. 

I think that after time Logos 4 will be better than Logos 3.  Right now I happen to LIKE how I can easily install Logos 4 and have all my licensed resources swarm over the ethernet and build a nest on my hard drive.  This beats the bloody forehead way of installing all of my resources in Logos 3.

I'll be glad like everyone else when I can print and all that, but I can use it for some things now with the promise of other things to come later on.  At first I was TICKED because this is supposed to be a LIBRARY, you know, all stable and there when you need it - and to have the rug pulled out of L3 and L4 not being ready for real work kind of struck me as very wrong.  But, it is what it is.  It'll get better.

When I saw this thread I thought that the OP must have missed the first 8 rounds, when everyone else already came out swinging.  Owell, it'll get better and I just use what it has now and I'll get all warm and fuzzy when the new features get added.  I'll need to keep my face in the forums though, because unless the new features are painted day-glo orange I'm not going to be looking for them.

Posts 1134
Juanita | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 16 2010 6:38 AM

Robert Pavich:

the term "beta" gets thrown around as a perjorative term when someone doesn't see a feature that they feel should be included.

Hi Robert,

I think the term "beta" can have pejorative connatations as you explain.  But, let me just simply say (and forget the word beta altogether), my concern is not over features that are incomplete, while that is a concern of others.  My concern is that new releases have problems and bugs beyond my level of comfort and yes, beyond what I remember them to be in earlier versions of Logos software.   The solution for me can be just to wait several months until I see that releases are more stable=to my liking.  Hope this helps.

Posts 30
Jose Ortega | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 16 2010 7:05 AM

Hey Steve, why do you assume I am a "Christian" brother? What kind of a forum is this? Did I just fuel through a worm-whole in the Logos space-time continuum and land at a fundamentalist bible camp? (I am a costumer. I support the product I have for over ten years).  Is there a  forum master who can tame the Talibanesque behavior?

btw/ in the real world a "fanboy" is not derogatory, It describes a resolute defender of a view or opinion in a forum. We are all "fanboys" of something on someone. I have been accused of  being a Jesus "fan boy." Of that accusation I am unashamed!

I am not an American Christianity "fan boy! I am not a Logos 4 "fan boy" yet I am a member of both camps. I support both. In fact, I am just shelling out some more Holiday Cheers for the logos skunk works for the Silver upgrade.

halleluiah

 

 

 

 

Posts 323
Doug | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 16 2010 7:16 AM

JimVanSchoonhoven:
Let's say for a moment that Logos 4 is completed by July, it would not have been done any earlier if they had delayed the early release, but since we do not lose any functiion in Libronix those that want to, got a great buy on Logos package deals that work in Libronix 3, plus if you want to start learning the new program, and are willing to put up with beta type updates and problems you can dive in to Logos 4 right now, and if you want to pretend like Logos 4 was not released until July, wait until they actually get everything stable and all the old features back in it, and then start using it, and think of it as the real release date!  Or if you don't like these options send it back for a refund if it is not to late!

I think this is a great point.  It's not like we're really missing anything.  We still have the features available in L3.  The original poster's point was no different that my first post and I remember clearly a lot of you posting to try to encourage me to just hand in there a little while and I would get the point of L4.  You were right.  I did.  Now, I think it's great.  I wanted to pass the kindness that you all have shown me on to this one who is a frustrated new user. 

The fact is, it doesn't even matter whether L4 is still beta or not.  As Jim said, we purchased a great new bundle of resources that we can use in L3.  But if you want to, and if you find it productive, you can begin using L4 now.  If not, you can wait until everything is in place.  We are a community here.  We are here to help and to be helped.  Let's keep that spirit flowing on these forums and continue to show brotherly/sisterly love towards one another and let Jesus rule in the Logos forums. 

Posts 4508
Robert Pavich | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 16 2010 7:20 AM

MikeM:

Logos 4 should be in beta?  I thought it already was.  Smile

Just kidding; don't get your shorts all in a knot. 

MikeM,

it has taken me a while to see your style...dry humor, straightforward manner, to the point.

I'm a little bull-headed so the combination (at first) was like water on a grease fire (don't ask me how I know) but now, I've had time to reflect on your comments and understand your style, and I'd like to do two things:

1.) Apologize for my past behavior (you're gonna have to search the threads for specifics)

2.) Say that I value your opinion and your "biblical knowledge" here on the forums.

 

God bless, brother....

 

bob

 

Robert Pavich

For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__

Posts 198
Bryan Brodess | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 16 2010 7:34 AM

Robert Pavich:

DOES NO ONE REMEMBER Bob P saying that they could have waited until all of the "expected features" were in place before releasing V4?

There were two roads to go down

1.) Wait. continue to develop. When v4 had all of the expected eventual features...then release. (in the mean time...nobody gets to use the software...

2.) Release with "features coming"

 

They chose #2 for a specific reason;  THOSE FEATURES(in their research) were features that only a SMALL PERCENTAGE of the user base used. (syntax diagrams, printing, etc)

 

So in their mind...anyone WHO WANTED TO NOT BUY BUT WAIT UNTIL EVERYTHING IS 100% LIKE THEY WANT...(Jose, Steve) can do so....they are not negatively affected in the least by having a product available for sale by Logos....they continue to use V3 as they always have.

 

Also, other users (those who want) could use the product also....

 

A WIN WIN  for everyone.

 

I find it very distasteful when those who purport to be Christian ascribe ulterior motives to Logos' decisions when they have no knowledge of what drove those decisions; it's no different than negative gossip.

 

I agree.

 

I guess we could look at it like this.

 

Logos 4 was released early so everyone could use it.. I know I love the extra resources and tools I have now..

 

Did anyone expect windows 7 to be released without having to add features and updates?? Xp had 3 service packs.. Vista was on which service pack..

 

I personally praise logos for doing what they did. I also think they are getting alot more feedback from users doing it this way that a regular "beta" program.. and it will benefit us all!!

 

Posts 2964
tom | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 16 2010 8:18 AM

Robert Pavich:

DOES NO ONE REMEMBER Bob P saying that they could have waited until all of the "expected features" were in place before releasing V4?

There were two roads to go down

1.) Wait. continue to develop. When v4 had all of the expected eventual features...then release. (in the mean time...nobody gets to use the software...

2.) Release with "features coming"

 

They chose #2 for a specific reason;  THOSE FEATURES(in their research) were features that only a SMALL PERCENTAGE of the user base used. (syntax diagrams, printing, etc)

 

So in their mind...anyone WHO WANTED TO NOT BUY BUT WAIT UNTIL EVERYTHING IS 100% LIKE THEY WANT...(Jose, Steve) can do so....they are not negatively affected in the least by having a product available for sale by Logos....they continue to use V3 as they always have.

 

Also, other users (those who want) could use the product also....

 

A WIN WIN  for everyone.

 

I find it very distasteful when those who purport to be Christian ascribe ulterior motives to Logos' decisions when they have no knowledge of what drove those decisions; it's no different than negative gossip.

 

Robert, I disagree with your "win win for everyone" statement.  For those of us who have decided to wait.  I decided to wait until the features that I use are available (print, notes, etc...), and now we are told that the upgrade discount ends at the end of the month.  Therefore, for those of us who decided to wait have to pay a higher price for the upgrade.

 

I did download v4 engine to see what all the talk was about.  It could be from the fact that I downloaded the engine instead of upgrading, but none of my settings were copied into v4.

Because v4 was able to find my library, I figure that it could also find my settings.  If I have 100 or so books marked to be hidden, why must I re-mark these books to be hidden?  I have several collections of just a few books.  Why do I have to recreate these collections?  (NOTE: I do like the fact that we can setup collections to include books automatically.)  I have a couple hundred workspaces (I have one setup for each Sunday of the three-year lectionary cycle, special worship services, and exegetical texts.)  Why must I convert my workspaces to layouts?

Every time I do start v4, it has to update and re-index (and thus hours of reduce computer performance).  For me, I think v4 should still be in Alpha testing.

Because I am sooooooo unhappy with v4 in its current condition, I currently cannot be a supporter of Logos on my seminary campus.  I cannot wait until the day arrives when I can be a supporter of Logos.

 

Posts 198
Bryan Brodess | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 16 2010 8:35 AM

tom collinge:

Robert, I disagree with your "win win for everyone" statement.  For those of us who have decided to wait.  I decided to wait until the features that I use are available (print, notes, etc...), and now we are told that the upgrade discount ends at the end of the month.  Therefore, for those of us who decided to wait have to pay a higher price for the upgrade.

 

I can not agree. they are offering the upgrade discount now.. You will get what you want..

would you rather wait until it is fully released, and pay the full price.. or buy now at reduced price.. knowing you will get the full release..

It is like was stated in the blog to a persons question. If you buy the package now at reduced rate, you will get the full Mac version when it is released.. if you wait until the full mac version is released you are out of luck. and will pay full price..

 

If you wait until all your features are active. you pay full price..

 

or you can buy now.. and continue to use logos 3 until your features are released..

 

it is up to you.,

 

 

Posts 196
Dan Pogue | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 16 2010 8:39 AM

Hey Robert,

     I think that it was intended to be a joke...when it comes to compter stuff, I don't know enough to fill a eighth of an inch measuring cup...actually confused with al this lingo that has gone on here!  I am just happy and blessed to have the new rescources with L4 and being able to do so much more with it!  As it has been said before and is so true for me...SIMPLE MINDS ARE EASILY ENTERTAINED!!!!!  I certainly meant no malce whatsoever in previous post about the beta...

blessings,

danp

Posts 569
J. Morris | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 16 2010 9:05 AM

When you incorporate new features (EX. Clippings) into a new program, then you need to support those new features (EX. Printing).

While I didn't print with L3 I desperatly want/need to pring in L4 because of the new features (which added the need to print)... I think this should have been expected, and certainly was/is expected by the majority now.

Clippings is just one example of the need to have in-system printing... there are many others...  (EX. the great new search results should be printable, certainly at LEAST copy(able).

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